the 70. hello and welcome to cross talk where all things are considered peter lavelle 75 years ago there was a global solidarity to annihilate the scourge of bashes him from europe the soviet union and its western allies prevailed against nazi germany today such global solidarity is sadly missing in the face of the current pandemic who in what blocks

is very necessary solidarity. this and more i'm joined by my guest to me bob it's in moscow he is a political analyst and editor of you know just me internet project and in court we have geoffrey robertson he is america's professor of history at university college cork and a member of the royal irish academy his latest book is churchill and stalin comrades in arms during the 2nd world war right gentlemen crossed out roles in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want the house appreciate it or i let me 1st go to a demon here in moscow you know dma here we go again this is almost like our tradition with our calling jeffrey we do this every single year commemorating victory in europe over fascism and for every single year that we do it we find ourselves more and more in a revisionist mode here i mean as i understand as we're sitting down doing our chat

right now is that facebook has banned a colorized version of the of the soviet banner over europe and the very very iconic one of showing victory in europe and you know i've searched around it's. true story i mean what in the world is going on here the black and white version seems to be acceptable the color when not are there different meanings or is this a revision and sell and why in the world would anyone want to deny that iconic photograph it's like the sailor kissing the young lady on times square in victory over japan i mean what is going on here go ahead well i don't know which exactly of which we're acting exactly. we mean here more likely it's their image or west soviet soldier which are not their advantage or rights which was basically the central power that issue a central power in the nazi germany so for decades there was no problem with this

let you know. it's a familiar image it's like that you might or american soldiers would you not a flag. in the pacific during the war with japan you were going to going to cause a scandal here well basically a lot of russians are not all thinking i want to play norm why that discrepancy and your theory on it jeffrey jeffrey roberts go ahead jeff you know everybody here this is exactly the photograph are talking about i'm. my goodness and here he has the props even for the program he had no idea it was going to pass there's going to be that's exactly it is still my office at the university so i'm going to mean that's a matter. yeah so are we russians who are thinking why you describe in russia now is certainly. that the country or the west then the soviet union i will war well of course style we have

a pluralistic educator history you know right now in russia you can hear and you can read any kind of stuff about their war what you from and apple do you know if stalinist revisionist you can get everything. and that makes us different from the west now where just one narrative seems to be made in the last year and my explanation is that the problem is with the new west and i go with you because it's impossible that the same sad story would suddenly happen in separate independent countries that you would count that sexual for marshal cohen you removed from prague and the czech say it was just the local authorities who decided to do it you know then you have. you know facebook removed the scrawled on the colorized version of the sport facebook is based in the united states then it's not

only against russia the name of franklin delano roosevelt was removed from everywhere in poor unless people heard about. and there are every year rules about is still a national hero in the night you know and that's the medicine just you know they've been the thing is here i do it seems to me and i think tim is on to something it is an ideological approach to all this but we can't deny it's simply ludicrous to didn't 9 the existence of historical figures now the difference is that glorify them ok i get that all right but you know it's almost like the the iconic picture of yalta where you have you know stalin churchill and roosevelt and you know in our early in the in this post cold war environment you know somehow that is sacrilegious because you're putting stalin on stage here and i'm here to me go to jeff i want you to can only get going on the point is here is that history is something we should learn from it i mean it's just not

a moral play in the president's go ahead joe you know what 1st i don't mind there's nothing to this historical revisionism because a long way back i mean almost as soon as the war has ended it's history has been revised it's going to launch you look to reason so it's not a new post knows it the present time if it were the case period of the start revisionism as you call it see connect it with the current or russia's relations the west will get all of that current so you. agree one point that david might well which i very much agree russia these days you can say anything you like about google you can actually pull any kind of extreme revisionist views anything it's all she's actually much more serious he bites her wool in russia than death there at the recent west but having said that you know there's more than one narrative in the west not treat we shouldn't exaggerate. account influence of the western liberal me here in western liberal or at least we shouldn't underestimate to to the

extent to which among popular conscious is quite a reasonable secret witness the true facts of the will or won't watch in particular was. to throw somebody play going to read homey. ok well but we didn't hear that jeff and then why are these it seems to me that their heat for the for the the majority of people the majority of media there is a new revision is a narrative being pushed here but at the same time you're saying that among the population there's a level of awareness i think that's true but i think it's getting smaller and smaller i used to teach at the university of california and you know young they're supposed to be the cream of the crop in their knowledge was very scant and i have to worry that it's even worse now because we have saving private ryan and you know we had i think yesterday the white house really giving credit to the united states

you k. for victory over the nazis not obviously not mentioning a soviet union in one has to question is that intentional or is it just lack of knowledge finish up on that point jeff. if there are some countries country nothing united states it's probably a state bad case of. expected bono not only history will be starker wishes narrative narrows originally to discredit companies. congressmen nazis and totalitarian alist khan kind of state nowadays of course it's political function is to discredit russia that is good just ready to see an end to create a contrast between the west need more russian authoritarianism fruit you know deal bus so she shouldn't rush up with the soviet union with day to totalitarian posset so that's what's going to kind of question this. hour to this continent fish but it's any right nice in poland says. let's actually be part of the contest

yes about the slums and well i mean de mint i mean you've known me for a very very long time and that's always been my gripe is that it's very difficult to talk about anything related to russia because it's always about context and if you don't have basic facts then you don't have any context ok and that's the. difficulty in discussing all this i mean you know there are the different narratives about the war ended 3 as a result of that war i mean i've always taken the position is that most of the soldiers that died didn't die for communism they died for mother russia they died to protect their families their tradition their language their civilization the eye of the ideological spine you can put it's been there if you can put it there but i don't think that's the majority of the pit opinion of the people that are there my opinion go ahead well i think there are people died for all right your reasons you know defend and russia and defending the soviet union but not on the russians. but

i think the main reason what so my will you know the people realize that if hitler wins i'm not going to survive and. what happened later was that. well crude shocking to power hugh ford style in years and by stunning it means i mean the problem of the character of star is the fall in basically our crew shot removed style and from all their narrative about the war in the same way it started removing current or trotsky from the narrative about the 1970 revolution so what happened on the wooden was now freedom team now you can be astonished you can say that you think stalin you know was very important that he won that war you can be and i study and the majority or all if you want russian there and there's a lot of movies about the war being made now and each of their mansions 3 predicate

which is being started back that is such a big lie. because you know the way crucial congressional ford started is worse than it is you know i was born in 1970 i remember that i forced saw study and peter when i was 13 in 1903 on the windshield of a car you know that was wrong you know whatever we think about stalin figure it was wrong to remove his image to remove all memory about him and now the west wants us to wreak heat the same thing you know to demonize the earth and there i'm returning to this i don't want to call the night war the more that i've always told the west i point out to liberals i wouldn't even call it our western i you would you why because it's not in the western tradition it's very if you want and they should experience you know shakespeare has dimensional characters and the problem

with them or the western narrative is that it does not allow them mention of characters and their it's narrative. because at the same time if date her. it's true. and they're weak in this war it was he was a nerd it was his the will power it was he hasn't made it to well it's the year we go the beer there is the debate there i would say they deserve a union on the war in spite of stalin ok but if he were just demonstrating to our viewers that there is a debate here i see jeff flock being in the in his little corner their heads every very good aberrate of everything afraid not look at it equal i don't know i don't know i just. used to change michael stipe last year which ah yes ali was a brutal dictator but it was also good to see you must equal posted something. like well if you stand in sight for well the west the west western democracy well hitler

that suburban hug is the statement right there you're not a productive statements in that book ok well i mean in the well kate were just printed on it is that you made a very important part the whitish contest is historical revisionism she is swish it not by producing a composer royce political or large who turns it away to contest it with the start of truth and we get a certain true future context contradiction kinds of stuff going on we might not might not like sharia we have to sort of picture inside but we also have to focus to not see some sorts of attacks and we're going to do after the break we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on remembering victory in europe i mean 5 years ago today.

join me every thursday on the alex i'm unsure when i'll be speaking to give us the world of politics sports business i'm show business i'll see you then. seemed wrong but all wrong just don't call. me old yet to shape our disdain to come out again and in again trade because betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground. well across town where all things are considered i'm people about to mind you were talking about victory over passions in europe 75 years ago.

ok let's go back to the mayor here in moscow here right before we went to the break jeffrey brought up the nazi soviet pact of course this is a hotly debated today and with good reason i would say because it kind of flushes out the historical facts suggest was getting to before we went to that you know given you and i have talked about this so many times here and and as you pointed out to me very eloquently yes that pact did exist and there were secret protocols we know that is part of the historical record but the way it's being framed right now is that there's something the soviet union is culpable any unique way because of that agreement but that isn't so most countries in the end europe had some kind of security agreement treaty with nazi germany before hostilities broke out in

september 1039 you know where i'm going with this go ahead. well you are absolutely right now. that actually our well the russian orthodox church recently a state said that these who or what the punishment what seems and what people were angry and you may say that how calm you know all all of these millions of people were simple well no but diplomats diplomats representing these countries yes because recently every county in europe with the exception may go through life in some way you know what happened in czechoslovakia yeah ok sounds great cooperate with. between 1033 and then make you what you want so it's if you or else if you want. how you don't create is with evil without huge wants it wants us we have. a good thing you know this nature like you we don't have it

you're off our study and your shape in france you know we can't study and even drop and that is reduced now in billions and billions of corpus but we have this nature or churchill roosevelt and started you mentioned it well i'm very concerned about the speeches because the west and i you all idjit well even that resent don't ask graham evidence because you know here is roosevelt and judge you see them next to that mill and you know or they will simply proceed with that because that will not suit their narrative you know the problem with regular ideologists in the west now as a regular. is there they twist the past what their political interest to be they removed i don't let it evidence i thought it to be explained in terms i thought and that's what the soviet state with history the future is certain but the past is not exactly a lot of things that we are now saying enough thought crimes in the west now there is no sex the other subsonic right now in russia but there are more and more kinds

of thought crimes in the west and the problem is that these new western i go if you're this are to liberalism or no member is what we call it it or parades by images by hollywood year image you know stalin is the will and so that means that he is doing what the war started and he too are to blame for the war to megalomaniacs i have been reading it in dolan's own books now m.p.p. most seem to disregard the war would not have been possible without millions of people preparing for the william lee so the problem is much bigger they are just too many other many acts but this is the way and more than western aid ordinary moves it's amos they always find. leader whom they demonize you know asa or saddam hussein you know now. they say you know we murdered him basically ok they don't say no to remove him and then everything will be fine so they may try to

apply the same crime to ordinary the world war 2 which was a very costly story very complicated. but that's why are you concerned about this your study and i'm trying to it shows that basically people very different beliefs would come to an agreement and fight on be evil and i don't think that's what i mentioned that's what i meant and what i did production we had a pandemic we have different good leaders and different political systems different worldviews but this pandemic doesn't care what your politics are but we can't have global solidarity and i'm not that many people think is grass could work internationalism because globalism is that it doesn't go far i mean you. have been go ahead yes are so it will actually fucking michael on this on the show but you know my very 1st book which of course of the 30 years ago was called young honey

a lot still has it's about the nazis are back now that you know right he was right when you say everyone did business with the nazis in the line see it through some very light soul sort it b.c. such as you know. dismemberment check check check their list there is something that discusses unique about the nazi thought that is no equivalent to that activity so secret protests and did have some rather radical consequences not get getting away from it you know including red occupation opponent east. september 9th i'm not ok you can say that the territories that were taken but red army one retaliatory terrorist a westerner russia ukraine a united europe to republicans you know to this certainly. the fences the nazis the nazis were packed and it's a very complicated set of historical events which unfolds as a result of the leading into the us and jeffrey. you're not here and i don't

think you need to defend i say i wouldn't i wouldn't phrase it that way a defense of it when i am i would say is if there is a reasonable explanation to understand why a bad thing happened because of the look at munich you have the western powers basically destroying the post world war one international system unilaterally destroying a sovereign state which they had implicitly and explicitly said that they would defend and then you go all the way up to august 39th and you get a more under regis form of it but it is precedent is set it's the same price and it may be even if you just have to agree i mean that's why i really get too sick and tired of people moralizing about an international system that the western powers had corrupted before but to outsiders nazi germany and the soviet union were involved in it ok this isn't the way back you know and then again i want to make sure i think i don't think you'd have to defend it you have to understand it go

ahead a sense that there's a very like there's a very recent one actually cause simple explanation for the nazis when he says he's a threat and actually 1st is the next ali so to create some kind of you know. grand alliance i found myself because it was peaceful and the spice of that style in turn to this very dirty to do with this real politic you know this you can describe it as me and i. saw it playing so i thought it was the only chance he's not fully did. various kinds of actions which he became free of the problem is you can't the west can't moralize over that when itself was it culpable for the destruction and i would say the precursor. well would then become an inevitable war i mean the remarkable thing if you look at the historical record since it hillary was i'll basically shocked that chamberlain well would agree to

breaking up oh oh well you know breaking apart subject is a heavy use of these people get their their revenues are going to sell them out i mean and then months later the entire country was about and this is a kind of more i mean if you want to use the moral dimension well this is the moral character you're dealing up and stuck in style he believes that to try to lead the british and french and do the. trick which is like well. ok ok so the nazis are actually lost as a people more people actually historical sense was the grand alliance yeah the you just will want to grow plants you know to be truthful attraction in some sense you know you know the networks and it worked go ahead and look it's the most successful exactly lots of yesterday's show counts it's the image and then well for us that since work like in paradoxes here and now jeffrey has just said that you know wink

if he didn't think you are not in sync western democracy is in the same way this fact 1st without it i don't think that there is no absolute necessary union in 1000 when you want would be possible because because of the pact the soviet union has what states and western ukraine inside itself these very hostile ended yes you know which remain out on the world much more recently in the late eighty's as soon as they had an opportunity to express themselves the needed it turned against moscow that if the west doesn't like that back so much they should return the owners to point. and and live their lives through reading out how he's doing it with me without news live our let me take a very provocative look at you know you can make parallels with that there in a lot of ways you know you can say that now russia and the united states and the west and you know cannot agree on fighting coronavirus in the same way they

couldn't it read in 1039 when fighting hitler despite his or your patient of or stricture so i think he is or he has sent a semi but why did that happen well because. the united states and the u.k. the view would. rush out of the soviet union reading that if you would well now the united states and the u.k. are viewing russia and china very near it they don't want aid from china from china makes them angry you know it's you know they're talking about propaganda well a guy named lenny to protect themselves keep going maybe i could just be happy till i had get them. ok look you get from starting to get a move later churches get together not what contemporary politicians actually confront this trip trust me if i see now you know if they matter

a political choice you compare a man and see. what you need. now you can't mean the difference kevin is the difference between then and now is it then you had people that had courage you had people that had some thought and you know it even stalin i would say ok i mean if you look at sort of the soviet ideology dealing with the bush wild west and you know because it the world was absolutely shots when the the announcement of the nazi so be a great that was made public i mean because after decades of demonizing capitalism and all that someone had to flip on a dime and say for our survival we're going to have to work with these 2 characters you know roosevelt and result and churchill here i mean the point is is that there's a big ship ok there's no bishan today these people are walking around like blind cats go ahead the last 20 seconds go to you well i think there really isn't or why we cannot agree now with the west is precisely the same i deal with and let me make

up for what with your statement you 939 and conclude you're right before that it was an invasion of the soviet union what the receiver at the top talk about national socialism you're going negative sense we didn't talk naziism s. and i deal with it and that made rational was defense. in the same way now we don't want to believe in one un aggressor west and i go with that same yes it would be nice if we present in there but it is there let a very good point gentlemen we have run out of time i want to thank my guests most here in moscow and in cork and i think i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at r.t.c. a next time remember. the world is driven by a dream shaped by one person to spread. the

dares thinks. we dare to ask. is you'll be a reflection of reality. in the world transformed. what will make you feel safe. tyson nation will community. are you going the right way or are you being led. direct. what is truth what is faith.

in the world corrupted you need to descend. to join us in the depths. or a made in the shallowness. good to bad is the in here willing. or operation in dying want some of the wealthier neighborhoods it's been far more contained in the numbers are much lower than some of the poor. neighborhood start to see if anything we're working with outside of state is there just so if.

i'm talking the screws france begins easing itself out of lockdown with the government convinced that it's got the virus on the run but many fear a lessening of restrictions could backfire on. the british prime minister reveals his plan to help steer the country back to some semblance of normality but the lock down states parts for now with a new code vigilant system monitor progress. on the 33000000 americans will be left jobless by the health crisis think they're the hardest hit city employees billionaires to help we have post farce america.