time after time they were going underground from the country with the worst coronavirus death toll in europe as countries across the continent begin to ease their lock downs and curfews coming up in the show risky business how to interpret our politicians the podiums of a 10 day give us a life or death advice on coronavirus we investigate risk illiteracy with risk and rationality scholar at the max planck institute tarting risk literacy center director professor good he commands and 1st class passengers on a sinking ship has covered $900.00 further exposes deepening cracks in us as your money power we ask award winning sociologist richard lachlan how mass mobilization can now transform the neoliberal world order only small coming up in today's going underground 1st all around the world our politicians will today be telling you how to live your lives and not be killed by coronavirus how to decode what they're saying and bypass the politicized spin incompetence and malfeasance joining me via

skype from berlin is director of the harding center of a risk literacy professor good. thanks so much pride for coming on to as i say we're going to all be watching our politicians tell us about the fact that they are following the science how should we interpret what those politicians tell us in the in the context of risk and literacy i think it would be really important that people themselves think about the risks to get into or only with their behavior i'm also not sure that politicians know what's the best thing to do this is a situation of uncertainty where we can know kind of political risk but we're you know things and also relax a little bit and do reasonable decisions route decisions prufrock for. and the men play and this again in the context of for instance massive numbers

of ventilators were bought for corona virus that it turns out we don't need why are we more scared of what is less likely to kill us the a key problem in our society is that we all have learned how to read and write but not how to become risk literate at least to understand the numbers so the numbers that make us feel are the numbers of infections of tests and also to understand the kind of thinking about what might lead to ward problems you've talked are taking a plea have to interpret mammogram results cancer risk flu risk which i'll get onto in a moment had i better just ask you then are we more scared than we should be about coronavirus there's nobody who came to tell you exactly where this virus is growing

so we need to live with uncertainty but we can protect us against. reactions that creates more problems so the classic consideration of the harley is $911.00 many americans after $911.00 stopped flying and what to do they used cars instead i've underlies the traffic statistics and found that for 12 months the most recent went up about up to 5 percent mostly on a long distance traveling and during that time about $1500.00 americans more than usual lost their lives on the roads in did tend to avoid the risk of flying but this is a case that illustrates that our own reaction to a big. danger can create new dangers or be at the fear flights arguably mean less

climate change for future generations do you think that that dollar trump then was right to compare when his terms what the chinese have done to the world with 911 and pearl harbor when it came to risk i'm not sure quite in the same way your comparing risk as regards probability of death wouldn't think that there is a point of saying that. was right we might think about would be doing it in order to avoid creating more pages for instance hospitals all over the world report including in the u.k. that in number of patients who come into the hospital the sort of emergency departments with city year or heart problems has decreased and the

interpretation is that many people who should go to the hospital don't go anymore because they fear getting infected by the virus. so and that may cause another distro similar to it in the $911.00 event but in a different way in the uk so it eases 'd the urge to kind of. be aware. of behavior we're not creating more problems than be already. you see some people might think that on a daily basis even that statement common sense of a kind is what where are you using in fact a lot of people say what politicians seem to be advising our top scientific adviser is everything they say seems a bit like common sense albeit that some of our politicians may not have ordered or prepared for the pandemic properly can you just take me back to the h one n one model that you did which seem to far be far more

accurate than the google flu model and that one was using 550000000 search terms how is it that something you can come up know on the back of an envelope presumably can be so much better than a probabilistic determination based on so much data by one of the biggest companies on earth google flu trends trying to predict the spread of through exactly the flu related doctor visits. her good idea to people might in the search terms if they have symptoms of it in it work and the most shameful reason is this is deep uncertainty so this flu puts the swine flu was not in the winter but in this summer. a good prince being calibrated on the pastor couldn't know that so what i'm working with is the abuse in the intelligence of the human prey

in which has evolved for many many years to drive other assumes that actually in this case up of trends we tested really simple. predictive fluke related doctor visits which just looked at the most recent data point and that proved to be better than big data what's to listen to listen is. in chino we shouldn't be impressed by very complex algorithms they work if to rudely stable the flip side of a complicated the modeling by multi-billion dollar multinational companies is the simplistic statements we get at press conferences when boris johnson here in britain says he's following the science how should we interpret that and is that an example of your risk fix i'm not sure. but it is always for science

it's often just an excuse for following a certain direction with a certain goal for instance. currently we are the face numbers numbers of boat new infections about death rates what's needed is an understanding where do these numbers come from most of the time the numbers of people would need a and a positive coronavirus test that means they die from the bones or with the virus or some kind of mixture. this type of understanding is important then to understand in the beauty case fatality rates are but then does that mean that our scientists our top model has. infected by something i think you've said before that the human brain itself finds it more difficult to

understand deaths over longer time period than a shorter time period maybe a genetic pre-disposition been enhanced perhaps by social and economic priorities in in a new your liberal europe suddenly it's in britain in the united states where the death toll appears we have to separate dislike a lot of the principles that make those fear from the risk literacy stanley of the numbers and also. from the. conflict of interest that ended the behavior of politicians so the principle that make us fear they include the anxiety that is caused by dread risks at the same time it is not easy to elicit our fear from situations where as many and more people die distributed over the year for instance in germany we had 2 years ago an estimated

20000 deaths to the regular through 20000 that it can cause any big fuss or we haven't rolled by millions of people who die on too close or a 1000000000 of people who are under. basically under under the brink of dying from poverty that doesn't draw much attention so it's certain things it is like the difference between. a plane crash which makes the media and cause a exidy and the steady toll of people dying on the roads which couldn't bother us where much so that's a kind of the psyche politicians when they were on the other hand. are in a difficult situation today and maybe if you look back today swine flu we can see

a politician keen. for instance confronted with a disturbance flying through there was tamiflu which was supposed to help against a severe consequences of the swine flu but there was no evidence and has stood no evidence for that but the british government bought tamiflu and you can understand a politician can make 2 errors one is to not to buy it and the m. something happens and then it's your fault or to spend too taxpayers' money in the it doesn't know what's coming as it is there is one true and that's more or less fired so this cook defensive decision making and in the end in the u.p.a. there was an estimated $65000.00 people who died from swine flu and it was

it in less than $500.00 and the government. burned pritish pounds on medication were we had never proof that it actually helps i understand there was the same model as being used there again in britain for corona virus just finally then do you think there's a class bias in risk analysis obviously over there in germany a much more equal country in terms of gini coefficient. no doctors no frontline medical personnel have died from corona virus here in britain apparently nearly 200 have vain and of course disproportionately it's been the poor and not the rich and we have by that what we have learned is certainly true of me and compared to the u.k. is that think of a model as that the idea here that

a health system should be optimized is a fatal idea. too many has been criticised over years for having too many intensive care beds that were used all the time now we are glad that we are them so one chamber of this thing is if you're dealing with a situation of uncertainty don't try to optimize or get past optimization is always on the past and if the future is difference you must to the same listen. been drawn from the financial crisis were banks optimized to capital by value at risk of collations and in something unexpected happened then they go bust so we need to learn this uncertainty and it's different from calculable risk prezza gardner and i thank you it was

a pleasure. after the bright as communist china continues to report 0 daily death stooges coronavirus we also ordering sociologist bridget blackman if showing this experience of western imperialism has shaped its approach to crisis. through of going underground. 30 years ago there was a global solidarity to annihilate the scourge of fascism from the air the soviet union and its western allies prevailed against nazi germany today such global solidarity is sadly missing in base the current. in what it wants is very necessary solidarity. good food descriptions sound upper tasing even for the owners so how to choose the pet food industry is telling us

what to feed our pets really more based on what they want to sell us than was necessarily good for the pet turns out food may not be as healthy as people believe we have animals that have you know diabetes in arthritis they have auto immune disorders allergies we are actually creating these problems it's a huge epidemic of problems all of them i believe can be linked to very simple problem of diet and some dog owners so heartbreaking stories about their pets less treats to larger corporations are not very interested in proving or disproving the value of their food because they're already making it a $1000000000.00 on it and there's no reason to do that research. welcome back well in the 1st half we tried to help you understand risk based on official information given to you what if you don't trust what your government tells you today about saving your life from. coronavirus here in britain it often

falls to boris johnson's health secretary matt hangup to tell you how to live your life but he arguably has former not being trusted here is a story culture secretary accused at an official committee of misrepresenting the u.k. is far reaching inquiry into ethics in journalism the so-called never seen report there was sparked by u.k. media hacking of the phone never murdered teenager you're a new secretary of state and you stood up in the house of commons and you represent it's a prime levasseur in this position and i think you misrepresented his position well so and i've told you why because supply leveson fundamentally disagreed with the government's conclusion and those are my words that that there's a surprise leveson is words so why should i believe you today because everything i said then was accurate and i. and i represented.

the position of his letter as a whole that he believed that the inquiry should continue and i was standing up to explain the dying thought that taking everything into account all the changes since since the leveson inquiry all the changes in law all the changes the fact that it's so now exists i take them all to enter into account i decided that the best thing is not to have a i know your position is all working quite well what i'm saying you know is that is that you miss misrepresented subprime levasseur this position to the commons on the well that's your view we're not going to come to agreement on it i think i faithfully represents it as set out as as you read out and but i until i understand i can see that you would rather abide done it differently no what i would wrong would would be that you were straightforward it's up to the british public to decide whether hancock is being straightforward about coronavirus today but his performance at the. leveson inquiry was widely seen as protecting the

interests of britain's media all agog like rupert murdoch and the buckley brothers and today amidst a global pandemic britain's newspapers continue to be the least trusted across a european survey of 33 countries the united kingdom is below mult and north of methadone you're according to your barometer in the past few days posing questions about what role inarguably captured media plays when tens of thousands of killed by disease britain of course is also one of the most an equal countries on that list and some media are all agog to maybe feeling today they're like 1st class passengers on a sinking ship that's the title of a new book by new york sociologist professor richard lachman and i caught up with him to ask him about his book some titled elite politics and the decline of great power as richard welcome to going underground to tell me about the 1st class passengers in the sinking ship ok well this is a book that tries to explain why it is that the united states is in decline and i

do it with historical comparisons to the 2 previous dominant powers britain and the netherlands and in essence what i find is that elites are able to grab control of not just government resources but government powers and in that way it becomes more and more difficult for governments to make strategic decisions that allocate resources in ways that are needed to maintain global dominance i should say that in range there are whole numbers of empires that get discussed in the book but for you national decline cannot be stopped by just mass organizing no i think where mass organizing matters is what conditions of life will be like after the clyde will elites be able to become wealthier and wealthier and make more and more decisions or will the mass of people. be able through electoral means or strikes or

other sorts of mass mobilization to be able to demand improved social programs a more egalitarian society and with the debates between narrow elites controlling all policy within say the united states or or britain is it a race then between climate change and the empire collapsing well i think the empire is collapsing regardless of climate change but the effects of climate change are certainly going to overwhelm many governments around the world and the question is whether in coming decades the us government will have the so it's of resources and flexibility to be able to respond in ways that prevent mass suffering and so just to be clear we're talking about hedge of money power as having sort of suicidal imperial. imperial instincts and

there's no real rule for trade unions where little policies while that's going on you know there there is a role for that there their role isn't to try to maintain their country's global dominance their role is to be sure that ordinary people are able to lead decent lives and have a larger share of what working people actually are producing but in the context of this book if you want to say the democrat primary campaign a candidate perhaps like son does is is not going to be fit enough to be able to conquer the elite powers that will be tried to constrain even a slightly social democratic model i don't know health care for instance let alone these wider ideas about and the imperialism really the only good news is that sociologists are very bad at being able to predict that. movements they are robbed

in ways that we really can't predict so you know that certainly is a possibility and there is levels of despair and anger in this country that should provoke widespread social movements whether those will happen in the next few years i'm not sure but that's really the one way in which the shape of decline can be shifted away from. most people just being more and more miserable and elites getting richer and richer toward one where the decline continues the u.s. is no longer a dominant global power but ordinary americans lead much happier and more decent lives ok so we shouldn't be really reading the book as a as a manual then but you do appear to be saying that whereas big movements of the working class in the united states have been left to the wayside have declined

china and india have learnt from the imperial power over those countries by britain by the united states and that in a way is is one of the reasons the ascending joining this decline in. you know i mean certainly the historical pattern is the countries that are rising learning how to produce things how to order their economies how to build their governments by looking at the ones that were previously most successful but i think we're at a real turning point in global history that over the past 500 years of capitalism when one dominant power lost control there was that a struggle among a couple of rising ones and then one won out and became the new dominant power i think now we're going to be entering an era where there won't be at jamaat anymore that you know it doesn't seem that china or india will. achieve that at least in

the next decades and we're going to have a world that where there's much more flux you know little about presumably the decline in funding for amtrak your national railway system moving here they're talking about a high speed rail way system that china has already offered to build in 5 years much less than britain is focusing on for less money what kind of pressure can donald trump put on powers that seek their infrastructure being built by china say which it is actually with 5 g. in this country huawei. threw the phone down on boris johnson here can can the united states try and prevent infrastructure projects being built by the perhaps future hedge amman's like china i think the u.s. will try but it's going to fail and if trump gets reelected i think countries around the world at that point are going to decide that they have to move very

decisively to try to order their economic and geopolitical affairs so that they have much less to do with the united states you know when bush was 1st elected in invaded iraq i think many people around the world thought this was just a fluke and that obama came in and there is the view well the united states is back to normal from the 1st election was seen as another fluke but if he gets reelected i think the reality will sink in that presidents like bush and trump are the norm for the united states and obama is the brief exception and so they're going to have to figure out how they can organize themselves so that when their future trumps the it doesn't affect them as much as it does now and one of the ways to do that is to exclude the united states as much as possible. obama was a was a wartime president does seem. to the global self how does the media play into

your thesis about elite power that well in 2 ways i mean one the the media very narrowly 0 and in the united states and with the end of the new deal regulatory system where you have the fairness doctrine add limits and how many stations can be owned by any one company that you have a move away from media that are locally based and have to give air to a variety of views to these sorts of ideological networks like fox that could have stations covering the entire united states and just present a single party line without having to offer alternative viewpoints and so between that and a couple of companies dominating the internet people are in the day to day basis exposed to much narrower points of view that are much more open to manipulation and

so it makes it harder to have. real debates. you know what alternative points of view there are for the most part confined to sort of their alternative media the unfortunately don't give very much of an audience and then while working class organizations organizers try and retain what little they have left after the 20 graces would rule do you think sabotage amidst elites can play in trying to create a a better world within the elites as it were but i mean certainly historically conflict among the leads provides an opening for the mass of people to achieve political victories i think what we're seeing now is not really conflicts among the leads in the u.s. but rather various the leads gaining total control over narrow sectors of the economy and being able to block government from interfering with that so

that sort of structure doesn't really provide much of an opening for. elites to play a significant political role and fortunately so would the idea be to smuggle oneself into the elite and i don't know huge political violence rather than peaceful political organization. i mean i don't think that's going to help very much and historically in the us when there's been violence from below at or kissed violence antiwar violence in the 1960 s. that's backfired and it's led to a turn to the right so that has never been a successful strategy i think the only thing that can be done is to make the effort to try to organize however hard it is probably the best place to put that in is trying to rebuild unions that would be. probably most effective strategy in the

united states. reza richard like went thank you it's a pleasure to talk with you. professor richard lachman speaking to me there and his book 1st class passengers on the sinking ship and the politics of the decline of great powers is out now that's it for the show we'll be back on wednesday with leading human rights lawyer geoffrey robertson q.c. to discuss the legal ramifications for the virus when it comes to civil liberties think. the world's most famous publisher julian assange then wash your hands and join the underground by following up on you tube twitter facebook found that instagram.

welcoming of us were around the world live from central london this is our 2 u.k. . the prime minister admits the parts of the country could come out of lockdown the different times as both scotland and wales disagree with the government's plans for the measures at risk youth in bali a position that accuses the government of failing to produce covert 19 safety guidelines for workers and calls for a national consensus. the russian president announces that the normal working period will end tomorrow put the ban on mass gatherings will remain in place we'll be getting reaction from moscow. and also the size of the government considers changes to its context tracing power but amid concerns about privacy and security

i'll get reaction from a previous exposure to. the prime minister has admitted that different areas of the country could come out of lockdown at different times after leaders of the regional government said his plans were too risky as opposition leader secures term accuses the government of failing to guarantee the work is safety i'll take a shot it was done she joins me in the studio with all the latest so it appeared to be a bit of a showdown in the house of commons today absolutely boris johnson the prime minister was under increasing pressure in the comments off to change the government's official line message from stay at home to stay alert which also at the same time he was putting forward the redux ation of the knock down measures strategy it is a difficult balance though for boris johnson on the government on the one hand

trying to give the public some semblance of their freedoms back in action on the other hand they don't want to alleviate too much of the drop down measures because they don't want to see a 2nd wave or peak of the virus that boris johnson has indeed acknowledged that the u.k. might not have a unified approach when it comes to lifting the knock down measures. and so the government is today submitted to the house a plan which is conditional and dependent as always on the common sense and observance of the british people don't continue reassessment of the data that picture varies across the regions and home nations of the united kingdom requiring a flexible response different parts of the u.k. may need to stay in full knockdown longer but any divergence should only be short term because there's probably so the u.k. no doubt that we must defeat this threat and face the challenge of recovery together. well it seems as though all leaders of the devolved nation seem to be on

a different page to boris johnson they in fact want to keep in place that message of stay at home rather than moving forward to stay alert and the 1st minister of scotland nicholas session she's been quite vocal about this earlier today and has decided to keep much stricter rules in place she says that changes to the strategy right now are far too risky it's a similar sentiment coming out from wales mokhtar 8 foot fares that is in the measures too soon could actually see an increase in cases across wales and we've also heard from the leader of cloud cover a who says there's now a 3 nations approach and england are acting separately and was confirmation that boris johnson is not speaking as a whole for the u.k. . there is now a 3 nations approach whilst scotland and northern ireland all agree on policy a message and i mean this with no mileage but for the sake of clarity can he control our dollars everything he has announced today any prime minister is acting

as the prime minister of england no no this is because i reject that completely and i think that most people looking at what we're saying know that it carries it is very good advice for the entire population of the united kingdom though i post that leigh respect the inflections and variations that may be necessary both locally regionally and nationally to reflect differences in those areas and show you what about workers' rights where the government has even been challenged when it comes to work has over who should go back to work and when they should go back to work so 2nd stomach the leader of the labor party says the prime minister has been not clear enough and has caused considerable confusion with his latest announcement that's because just yesterday boris johnson statement almost implied that people who can't work from home should go back to work as early as today now it seems like the date of action is more like wednesday but still is that enough time for

workplaces to make sure it's a safe space and safe environment for workers to go back well so kiss star is now demanding that there needs to be clearer guidelines on the s. in the document i've seen it says that workplaces should follow the coated secure guidelines which i assume the same guidelines as soon as practicable. but under page 2022 it says they will be released later this week so we know we're going to some people go back to work on wednesday the guidelines of not being published their parents are going to be released later this week so can i just ask the prime minister will look guidelines the safety guidelines be ready for wednesday which realistically means to morrow if work place you could be ready for them for wednesday morning if not is he seriously asking people to go back to work without the guidelines have the guidelines now been agreed with businesses and trade unions that was the attempt was going on sunday a week ago until the guidelines only upon england. just to mention the

sickest are in the last few minutes has called for a national consensus on a strategy to dealing with covert 19 but what the government has said particularly when it comes to work is that it's actively encouraging people to go back to work but there is confusion on how to get to work as the advice is to avoid public transport but encourage people to walk or cycle and where most where it's difficult to socially distance depending on how the next few weeks go then the government may allow children in primary school to return at the beginning of june that would include reception in year one and year 6 when it comes to secondary school students they're unlikely to be allowed back before september as for the hospitality services restaurants and cafes could open an ally a non essential retail could open june there's no timeline in place for when place of worship or cinemas could reopen from wednesday the public will be allowed more time outdoors and that's not just for exercise in fact there's no time limit on

outdoor exercise and you will be allowed to sit with one individual even someone from outside your household but must maintain that social distance of 2 metres as for travel restrictions they're not being lifted and those returning from a port are brought will have to quarantine for 14 days now the government's latest lockdown measures come as the number of deaths is on the low end of the spectrum as there's been a rise in $210.00 deaths in the last 24 hour period that brings the total to 32065 deaths across the united kingdom since the pandemic broke out here in the u.k. but because the overall stats are still alarming boris johnson says that the government can go no further than these small modifications to the knock down measures small as they may be though the prime minister has stressed that the brakes would be put on at any time if need be and could even be reversed. shadi thank you very much for all of that as well with the government now advising face coverings on

transport for london publishes similar advice i was joined by c.e.o. of medical iran that he told me that widespread use of p p does also present problems the world health organization has given thank you reasons why it shouldn't be. so a choice and it doesn't really have any any material effect in those other issues. other sets of countries are different different policies so there are there is still a lot of debate about it but ultimately it doesn't it's not effective than it leads to a lot of the additional issues it could be and if you don't say it's actually wearing a mask is a waste of time even on public transport and i didn't say it was a waste of time i think it just brings it in you issues people feel more comfortable in when you're wearing property there's a really effective incidence and conditions so. much wind and not not really say anything that we can do to help my biggest the worry was using real e.p.

and then when it's already a sure fire well it is funny he works alongside a doctor who died from kobe them possibly because of not adequate p.p.s. so clearly this sort of incident should make the government wake up and change things. if it's a very big 19 i found in this i place that in his 1st job in the sunset in 98. and he said he was a real family man and he let all the hours he could get for children and he's recently died was elected he and his family's given 60000 pounds for that so it's 12000 pounds remaining child in that. and he's white. researches of the british university of claim that the government's measures have done little to stop the spread of the virus academics at the university of east anglia analyze these sector by sector effectiveness of the lockdown they found closing all nonessential

businesses had little impact on the spread of the virus across the country the stay at home guidance was also found to have had little effect however some measures were deemed to be effective closing schools did help in reducing the incidence of coronavirus after a certain time lag period and the ban on mass gatherings also had a positive effect but it comes as figures from the office for national statistics look at patterns between jobs and virus related deaths and the show that the death rate varies everly depending on the sector a person works in the fatality rate among men is also higher than amongst women where security guards are significantly more likely to die of covert 19 with a death rate of over $45.00 per 100000 taxi drivers and chauffeurs are also more than twice as likely to suffer a coronavirus related death care home workers also more risk of death rate of over $23.00 per 100000 ever the rate of death among n.h.s.

workers was found to be in line with national averages earlier i was joined by policy research expert dr joshua moon he thinks that simply following the science isn't as easy as it seems. science lead is exactly what it says it's being led by science but when the science is uncertain so the measures that you try to enforce and so while the research from the university of east anglia does jess that some measures are more effective than others to base an entire country's strategy on a single paper it's possibly not the best idea that being said there's certainly something to question around this kind of science lead narrative that we're being given by the u.k. government and it's clear from the issues around the u.k. scientific advisory group for emergencies that we've seen in recent days in the strategic delays that we saw in kind of the early response that the definition of science in the science led strategy is actually incredibly narrow and doesn't

represent a kind of wide range of experts uses there to study it that it shows that some jobs are putting people more risk at what measures could be integers there to keep people safer because obviously these measures need to be introduced as quickly as possible. but for this this is personal protective equipment and social distancing these jobs are all harder to do with proper social distancing because they require close interaction with people there are also male dominated fields which i think is why we're seeing this higher death rate in men and. in this case face masks of people going to be all necessary to reduce the cases and deaths that all the risks associated with these these jobs. let's take a look at how the virus is affecting the home missions well over 2 123000 have now tested positive more than 32000 have lost their lives an increase of 210 since yesterday in scotland and wales have individually reported 5 more fatalities in

northern and 3 and for a global picture of the virus but according to johns hopkins university which collects global data over 4100000 infected more than 283000 have died and over 1400000 have now recovered or fronts begins easing it's not done with nurseries primary schools and most businesses reopening that many fear this could backfire causing a 2nd wave of infections belgium is taking its foot off the lot down slightly with core sectors such as retail movement angry our hospitality workers there laid down hundreds of chef's jackets last week to protest against the government's decision not to reopen bars and restaurants and to let these june and as 33000000 americans are left jobless american new york is calling on tech billionaires to help we imagine post a virus america. still to come on a parliamentary committee calls for pools to be a roll out of the n.h.s.

is contact tracing out citing privacy concerns we'll be hearing from previously expert shortly. you cannot be both with me yet you like.

the world is driven by a dreamer shaped by one person of those. dares thinks. we dare to ask. if. the russian president's not at the moment working period will end tomorrow but the panel must gatherings will remain in place or he's done hawkins has more. well

person in a video conference with the regional governors and mayors has announced that as a small road be all country normal working week the non-working time period because from one week it's been extended obviously to 6 weeks now as of tomorrow that will all come to an end but what does that mean what doesn't that mean that certainly doesn't mean that things are back to normal that people will be able to go about that they business go to the shops had dresses restaurants and have mass gatherings football matches or concerts for example what that does mean is that regional governors may as that had some regions will be able to have more discretion and will power over how those lockdown measures are eased here in moscow for example of course where those measures unlikely to stay in place moscow has had one of the highest infection and death rights in the country in regions where it has less of a hold and that means restrictions could be lifted perhaps sooner and perhaps more widespread he put it in

a big emphasis on testing state and at the start of march there was about 2 in all 1000 test by date and that number is now up 217-0000 spread they are not going to double up on the end of may to 300000 so mr putin said that that is a key element on medics they've been working with those with coverage need to look help and support they can get and they will continue to receive increased payments for taking the risks that they do. like we said they support as well for businesses individual self-employed people as well because although the virus is such a very war rate for a lot of people it's the economic side it's the unemployment the jobs that people are most concerned about and he's put in a whole raft of measures to support families with children and to support small and medium sized businesses and to ensure they can get access to credits subsidized rate from the russian banks as well that's going to happen by the end of june.

british police have won that a lack of clarity in the government's announcements in corona virus have resulted in more people in hong kong and on the streets. police officers will continue to do that best but their work must be based on crystal clear guidance not solutions rules that are left agent to interpretation it has got to be grossly offices whose job is already challenging offices across the country reported breaches of the in lockdown rules at the weekend with people traveling to beauty destinations having birthday and ve day parties and some pubs even reopening synchrony senior officers also called for clarification of police responsibilities on a body representing officers in the capital said the government's pandemic response was wishy washy and is joined by a former police officer and policing expert peter williams it told me that there must be legislation to enforce rules such as social distancing. because the police

to enforce these rules if actively do need the cooperation of the public and the vast majority of the political during us as we know the recall you'll just refer to. is only highlighting the minority of breaches of the so-called socialists amarilly what's the problem for the police officers because obviously there's this view particularly capital that the regulations are wishy washy but of course the government has clarified what's acceptable some bathing meeting one other person with a 2 metre distance i mean if that's all common sense and that makes things easier or harder for the police. well it's all about applying common sense if you look in the college of police's sites in reference to. anything to do with these regulations to say that they should employ the judgments and the police services you need so many other organizations and salutes that those at the bottom of it

have far more discretion and those. are things you want to questioning concept we'll probably we need to wind this block this place counts in full social distance and that's a decision full individuals what they challenge fulls is legislation that is pertaining to things like. the n.h.s. is looking into the feasibility of switching its coronavirus contact tracing app to the decentralized model supported by tech giants such as apple and google it comes as the government's trial of its own app began on the isle of wight last week amid concerns the technology could put people's data at risk well the n.h.s. app works by detecting nearby phones via bluetooth making a record of its contacts unlike other contact apps which require users to have a positive test the n.h.s. one allows users to self report if they have symptoms of the virus but at least

half of the population need to download the app for it to be successful in h.s. apple also stores phone information on a centralized system while the decentralized method sends a notification independently from the user's fun well it's this key difference in the unprecedented scale of the data being collected that is concerned privacy experts it comes as the joint committee on human rights assert that the government needs to ensure the protections are in place a report by the committee recommended that the government introduce legislation to make sure people's data and human rights were not violated also called for an independent body to oversee its use while a digital contact tracing human rights commission would handle public complaints and report to parliament yeah it would also be subject to regular reviews by the health secretary at hancock down experience said that maintaining security and privacy have been at the heart of the absence of management. for more on this some joined by privacy expert marc mazhar market to see you know the government maintains the data is anonymous so how can this be misplaced for more sinister

purposes what people so worried about this. well i think the key concerns people have is that the centralizing of the data is. by the by the end it by the n.h.s. you combining that with other did it to track people. on it necessary and it well its privacy rights and of course we've heard that the n.h.s. is exploring the possibility of switching to the centralized system proposed by the tech thumbs and that will leave users more protected when it. yes it would you know nick i mean had to have 2 these big tech firms standing their ground against the n.h.s. and saying that they would provide limited functionality to their bluetooth a.v.r.e. if the n.h.s. centralizers data and it ends and it could be that the n.h.s. looking at moving over to. the content tracing by apple because all of this is to

help with or his test track and trace infected patients and and we are at a time of crisis always so perhaps can't we just haven't any privacy wise for a limited time this isn't going to be something forever isn't it. well i think there's a fundamental misunderstanding that i tend to eccentric surveillance approach is actually going to. solve the problem and not actually cause more problems and i think what we're seeing is a good 19 it coronaviruses a human problem it's not it technology problem so without showing how it's actually going to fix or help or support or do anything all of this is really not going to be effective or worthwhile do you think that sentiment shared by the majority of the public because obviously take up throughout the population is so important for this to work will people take it up. you know i think with you know broad police power is in for seeing stuff like social distancing the last thing people are going

to be doing is taking out an ad and sharing data about when they're sick i think that you know there's a mismanagement that's pretty severe year in terms of you know how to actually you know deal with people who are having who are sick and have a virus sister i think there's a critical issue country critical issues there's a saying in effect this is a waste of time and yet it's a waste of time it's actually worse than a waste of time i think damage to existing systems and it's preventing you know really good and efficient impactful responses i mean what we really should be doing is educating people on how to contact trace themselves and keep a journal of how they're you know their behaviors so over the last few days so that they can contact people that might be at risk and to avoid and you know situations that are going to spread the virus which is you know nightclubs and you know large events and you know any sort of late you know normal to supervise all but being

extra careful of people would need any technology tempted to ensure there is a that sort of information we think this can be done quite simply by the normal communication. that's right and you know i think what we want to do is want to use technology to actually enhance people's knowledge and awareness to know what their risks are and what the risks are telling people not to put them under surveillance and try to come up with some sort of you know you know program for getting out of a lockdown with with this surveillance because it's just not it's not going to work and it's actually breaking breaking existing system that is what surveillance of course you share the concern that people might think that this technology can be used beyond the pandemic father perhaps in the fairest purposes. well what has the guardian explained it again in an article last week the county has been called in to aggregate multiple databases and that the energy is as sharing data without explicit consent or you know and without some transparency either so i think it's

going to be. rightful that people would you know be concerned at any way that though they're obviously trying the system and it has been working in other countries do you think the government could boost public trust in this or do you think the government really should change tack altogether well i think that the tactic of that essentially technology and using that will definitely help but i think taking it you know people 1st approach and educating people on how to protect themselves and what the risks are is definitely the 1st step you know this this impacts different demographics different age were great rages differently and with technology especially mobile phones there's a huge amount of bias already like there's no way for people to really understand it consent to that human get sent to the to do this because it's hard for people understand what what's really going on with this tracking and you know people with less resources don't use mobile phones the same way and older phones and you really

when we look at just the biases that are inherent already with with these mobile phone technologies it was just me even worse by depending on them for something like over 1000 really good to talk to on this small thank you for the time that mark was off they have and that is it for programs today all colleagues and auti america will take over the top of the next hour from all of us here in westminster thanks for watching and divine.

we go to work for you straight home. seemed wrong but all just all. any belief yet to shake out this day because that's a good and engagement equals a trail. when something find themselves worlds apart. just to look for common ground. good food descriptions sound up to tell using even for the owners. how to choose

the pet food industry is telling us what to feed our pets really more based on what they want to sell us than was necessarily good for the pet turns out that food may not be as healthy as people believe and we have animals that have you know diabetes in arthritis they have auto immune disorders they've got allergies we are actually creating these problems it's a huge epidemic of problems all of them i believe can be linked to very simple problem of diet and some dog owners so hot. breaking stories about their pets last treats the larger corporations are not very interested in proving or disproving the value of their food because they're already making it to $1000000000.00 on it and there's no reason to do that research.

hello and welcome to cross talk where all things are considered peter lavelle 75 years ago there was a global solidarity to annihilate the scourge of bashes them from europe the soviet union and its western allies prevailed against nazi germany today such global solidarity is sadly missing in base of the current pandemic who in what blocks is very necessary solidarity. to stop this and more i'm joined by my guest to meet me bob it's in moscow he is a political analyst and editor of you know just me internet project and in court we have jeffrey roberts.