career as basically a glorified money market fund that was a round trip to nowhere that everyone will just forget it. hello and welcome to cross talk where all things are considered peter lavelle 75 years ago there was a global solidarity to annihilate the scourge of bashes him from europe the soviet union and its western allies prevailed against nazi germany today such global solidarity is sadly missing in the face of the current pandemic who in what blocks is very necessary solidarity.

this and more i'm joined by my guest to me bob it's in moscow he is a political analyst and editor of you know just me internet project and in court we have jeffrey roberts he is america's professor of history at university college cork and a member of the royal irish academy his latest book is churchill and stalin comrades in arms during the 2nd world war right gentlemen crosstalk roles in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want the house appreciate it or i let me 1st go to a demon here in moscow you know dma here we go again this is almost like our tradition with our calling jeffrey we do this every single year commemorating victory in europe over fascism and for every single year that we do it we find ourselves in more and more in a revisionist mode here i mean as i understand as we're sitting down doing our chat right now is it facebook has banned a colorize. version of the of the soviet banner over europe the very very

iconic one of showing victory in europe and you know i've searched around it's a true story meaning what in the world is going on here the black and white version seems to be acceptable the color when not are there different meanings or is this a revision and sell and why in the world would anyone want to deny that iconic photograph it's like the sailor kissing the young lady on times square in victory over japan i mean what is going on here go ahead well i don't know which exactly of which we're acting exactly. we mean here more likely it's their image or west soviet soldier which are not their advantage or rights which was basically the central issue of central power in the nazi germany so for decades there was no problem with a slat you know. it's a familiar image it's like that you might or american soldiers would you not

a flag. in the pacific during the war with japan you were going to cause a scandal here well basically a lot of russians on all thinking what's going on why that discrepancy and you had all 3 i mean jeffrey jeffrey roberts go ahead jeff show everybody here this is exactly the photograph we're talking about. my goodness and here he has the props even for the program he had no idea it was going to ask is going to that's exactly it just to tell my office at the university i'm going to get must mean that it's a matter. yeah so are we russians who are thinking why you describe in russia now is certainly. that the country or the west then the soviet union i will war well of course style we have a pluralistic edge if you through history you know right now. in russia you can

hear and you can read any kind of stuff about the war but to from an apple down to you know stalinist revisionist you can get everything that makes us different from the west now well just one narrative seems to be related in the last year and my explanation is that the problem is with the new west and i go with you because it's impossible that the same sad story would suddenly happen in separate independent countries that you would count that sexual for marshall corner removed from prague and the czechs say it was just the local authorities who decided to do it you know then you have. you know facebook removed the scrawled on the cow right version of this for the facebook is based in the united states then it's not only against russia at the name of franklin delano roosevelt was removed from everywhere in poor unless people heard about. and there are every year rules about is still

a national hero in the night you know and that's the medicine just you know did the thing it says here i do it seems to me and i think tim is on to something it is an ideological approach to all this but we can't deny it's simply ludicrous to didn't 9 the existence of historical figures now the differences that glorify them ok i get that all right but you know it's almost like the the iconic picture of yeltsin where you have you know stalin churchill and roosevelt and you know in our early in the in this post cold war environment you know somehow that is sacrilegious because you're putting stalin on stage here and i'm here to let me go to jeff i want you to can only get going on the point is here is that history is something we should learn from it i mean it's just not a moral play in the president's go ahead joe you know what the 1st announcement is not going to this historical revisionism because

a long way back i mean almost as soon as the war has ended it's history has been revised it's going to launch you look for reasons so it's not a new post knows it the present time it's we're in the to keep it faced period of historic revisionism as you call it. connect it with the currents or russia's relations with the west and will get all of that content so you. agree with one point that david might look very much greater russia these days you can say anything you like about google that you could actually pull any kind of extreme revisionist views anything at all she's actually much more serious bites for wool in russia than death there at the recent west but having said that you know there's more than one narrative in the west not treat we shouldn't exaggerate. account influence of the western liberal me here in western liberal or at least we shouldn't underestimate to the extent to which among popular consciousness is quite a reasonable secret when the true facts of the wolf what was in particular was.

to throw somebody play going to read home. defeat it. ok well but we didn't hear that jeff and then why are these it seems to me that their heat for the for the the majority of people the majority of media there is a new revision is a narrative being pushed here but at the same time you're saying that among the population there's a level of awareness i think that's true but i think it's getting smaller and smaller i used to teach at the university of california and you know young they're supposed to be the cream of the crop in their knowledge was very scant and i have to worry that it's even worse now because we have saving private ryan and you know we had i think yesterday the white house really giving credit to the united states you came for a victory over the nazis not obviously not mentioning a soviet union and one has to question is that intentional or is it just lack of

knowledge finish up on that point jeff. if there are some countries countries now feel united states it's probably a straight bat case of our expected oh no not only history will be starker or vicious narratives i mean arrows originally to discredit kamel is just such a congressman not is a totalitarian well it's concomitant state nowadays of course it's political function is to discredit russia that is good just ready to shoot and to create a contrast between the west need marks in russian authoritarianism fruit you know deal bus so she shouldn't rush up with the soviet union with day to totalitarian pasta so that's what's going to kind of question this. hour to this continent fish but exactly right nice in poland says. let's actually be part of the contest yes about the slums and well i mean i mean you've known me for

a very very long time and that's always been my gripe is that it's very difficult to talk about anything related to russia because it's always about context and if you don't have basic facts then you don't have any context ok and that's the. difficulty and discussing all this i mean you know there are different narratives about the war ended 3 as a result of that war i mean i've always taken the position is that most of the soldiers that died didn't die for communism they died for mother russia they died to protect their families their tradition their language system bliz ation the eye of the ideological spine you can put a spin there if you can put it there but i don't think that's the majority of the pitch opinion of the people that are there my opinion go ahead well i think there are people tonight for who write your reasons you know and defend your russia and defend the soviet union but not on the russians but i think the main reason was so why well you know the people realize that you know hitler wins but i'm not going to survive and. what happened later was that.

well crude shocking to power hugh ford style in years and by stunning it means i mean the problem of the character of star is the fall in basically our crew shot removed style and from all their narrative about the war in the same way it started removing hyun or trotsky from the narrative about the 1970 revolution so what happened on the wooden was now freedom team now you can be astonished you can say that you think stalin you know was very important that he won that war you can be and i study and the majority or if you want russian dead and there's a lot of movies about the war you may know and each of them mentions repression so well in the west they say or study has been. what is being started back that

is such a big lie. because you know the way he grew shopfront revenue for it started is worse than it is you know i was born in 1970 i remember that i forced saw study and peter when i was 13 in 1903 on the windshield of a car you know that was wrong you know whatever we think about stalin as a figure it was wrong to remove his image to remove all memory about him and now the west wants us to eat eat the same thing you know to demonize the earth and there i'm returning to this i got what you call the night well there's no more that i've always told the west i point out to liberals i wouldn't call it our western i you would you why because it's not in the western tradition it's very if you want and they should experience you know shakespeare has dimensional characters and the problem with them or the western narrative is that it does not allow them mention

of characters and their it's. narrative not in the same time if data that's true. and they're weak to induce the war it was he has nerve it was he has the willpower it was he hasn't made it to well it's the year we go the beer there is the debate there i would say they deserve a union on the war in spite of stalin ok but if he were just demonstrating to our viewers that there is a debate here i see jeff flock being in the in his little corner their heads every very good operate of everything afraid not look at it equal i don't know i don't know i just. used to change michael stipe last year which ah yes ali was a brutal dictator but it was also good to see you must equal posted something. like well if you use some insight or well the west the west western democracy well hitler that suburban huggins damon right there if you're not

a productive statements in that book ok well i mean in the well kate we're just printed on it is that you made a very important part the whitish contest is historical revisionism she is swish it not by producing a composer or as political or large 2 times it's a way to contest it with which you start the troops and we get a stark a true future context contradiction kinds of stuff going on we might not mind not much so yeah we have to talk down to sort of victory and such but we also have to focus to not see some sorts of attacks and we're going to do after the break we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on remembering victory in europe i mean 5 years ago today.

the bard is the. police do you think this is. more of an operation in. some of the wealthier neighborhoods it's been far more contained in the numbers are much lower than some of the more of neighborhoods in star city. we're working with can source outside of the state is there just so it is here so i think that it was. the. truth. well that across town where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle remind you we're talking about victory over passions in europe 75 years ago.

ok let's go back to the i'm here in moscow here right before we went to the break jeffrey brought up the nazi soviet pact of course this is a hotly debated today and with good reason i would say because it kind of flushes out the historical facts it just was getting into that you know you mean you and i have talked about this so many times here and and as you pointed out to me very eloquently yes that pact that exists and there were secret protocols you know that is part of the historical record but the way it's being framed right now is that there's something the soviet union is culpable in a unique way because of that agreement but that isn't so. so most countries in the end europe had some kind of security agreement treaty with nazi germany before hostilities broke out in september 1039 you know where i'm going with this go ahead

jim well you are absolutely right now and when that actually are well the russian orthodox church recently a save said that this war what the punishment was seems and what of people who are angry and you may sad how come you know all or all of these millions of people who are simple well no but diplomats diplomats representing these countries yes because basically every county in europe with the exception may go through life yet in some way it's not what happened in czechoslovakia yeah but actually in some way cooperate with. between 1033 and then making 41 so it's if huge moral if you want how you don't create is with evil without huge wants it wants us we have. a good thing you know this nature like you we don't have it you're off our study and your shape in france you know we can't study and

we've been dropped and that is reduced now in billions and billions of corpus but we have this nature or churchill rules about them started you mentioned that well i'm very concerned about the speech because the west and i you all are just well even that resent don't ask prime evidence because you know here is roosevelt and churchill cd and next to that mill and you know or they will simply proceed with that because a lot suit their narrative you know the problem with regular ideologist and the last now as a regular. is that they twist the past what the political interest will be they removed i don't know what. i thought the of e.s.p.n. in terms i thought of that's what the soviet stand with history the future is certain but the past is not exactly. a lot of things that we're now saying of thought crimes in the west now there is no sex the other subsonic right now in russia but there are more and more kinds of soft crimes in the west and the problem

is that these new western i go if you're this are to liberalism or no member is what we call it it or parades by images by hollywood year image you know stalin is the will and so that means that he is doing what the war started and he too are to blame for the war to now go maniacs i have been reading it in dollars so books now m.p.p. more seem to disregard the war would not have been possible without needy and so people preparing for the william lee so the problem is much bigger they are just too many other many acts but this is the way more than a westerner you ordinary moves it's amos they always find a leader who they demonize you know us are or saddam hussein you know. they say you know we murdered him basically they don't say much we remove him and then everything will be fine so they they try to apply the same kind to ordinary the

world war 2 which was a very complicated story a very complicated. but that's why are you concerned about this picture or study and rules or come true to each show was that basically people very different beliefs would come to an agreement and fight on be evil and one thing that i mentioned that's what i meant and i need protection we have a pandemic we have different good leaders and different political systems different worldviews but this pandemic doesn't care what your politics are we can't have global solidarity and i'm not done and what do you think is quest at work internationalism because globalism is that it doesn't go far i mean you. have been go ahead yes are some. well actually fucking michael on this on the show but you know my very 1st book which of course of the 30 years ago was called young honey a lot still has it's about

a nazi. know right he was right when you cite everyone business with the nazis in the line see it through some very light soul so what if we see such as your. dismemberment checks next neverless there is something to discuss unique about the nazi thought that is no equivalents to that activity so secret protests did have some rather radical consequences not get getting away from it you know excluding red occupation opponents. september 9th not. the territories that were taken but read on me what really poster a terrorist a westerner russia ukraine a united to retrieve. this certainly a case to be made $0.80 of the nazis in the nazis were attacked and it's a very complicated set of historical events which unfolds as a result of the leading into the us and jeffrey. you're not here and i don't

think you need to defend i say i wouldn't i wouldn't phrase it that way a defense of it when i am i would say is if there is a reasonable explanation to understand why a bad thing happened we had to look at munich you have the western powers basically destroying the post world war one international system unilaterally destroying a sovereign state which they had implicitly and explicitly said that they would defend and then you go all the way up to august 39th and you get a more under regis form of it but it is precedent is set for me it's the same price and maybe you just have to agree i mean that's why i really get too sick and tired of people moralizing about an international system that the western powers had corrupted before but to outsiders nazi germany. and the soviet union were involved in it ok this isn't the way back you know and then again i want to make sure i think i don't think you'd have to defend it you have to understand it go ahead

offense at this very like yeah that's a very reasonable and actually cause simple explanation for the nazis when he says he's a threat and actually 1st he says he included start so to create some kind of you know. grand alliance i found myself because it was peaceful and the spice of that styling turned to this very dirty to do with this real politic you know deceit you can describe as me and i. saw it playing so i thought it was the only chance you know he's not what he did. various kinds of actions which he became the point is you can't the west can't moralize over that when itself was it culpable for the destruction and i would say the precursor to what would then become an inevitable war i mean they were the remarkable thing if you look at the historical record isn't it hilary was well basically shocked that chamberlain well would agree to breaking up you know breaking up parts of texas

a heaviness of these people get there they're really going to sell them out i mean and then months later the entire country was about and this is a kind of more i mean if you want to use the moral dimension well this is the moral character that you're dealing on and stuff and style he believes that to try to please the british and french and do the same to our country crowd which is like well they did a good look they're all. ok ok so the nazis are active they're well let's ask people more people actually at the historical sense was the grand alliance yeah the judas will want to grant lawrence you know the big 3 churches don't you know you know the networks and it worked go ahead david look it's the most successful legal art city history shoots comics it's. well 1st since you are like him in paradoxes here. jeffrey has just said that you know we keep to our style and see western

democracies in the same way this fact trust without it i don't think that there is no absolute necessary union in 1000 when you want would be possible because because of the pact the soviet union has one wall to states and western ukraine inside itself these very hostile n.g.o.s you know which remain out on the world much more basically in the late eighty's as soon as next had an opportunity to express their themselves be immediately turned against moscow then you fire the west doesn't like that back so much they should return the onus to point. and and they're listening out on how he's doing it with you without us live our let me take a very provocative look at you know you can make parallels with that there in a lot of ways you know you can say they're not russia and the united states and the west and you know cannot agree on fighting coronavirus in the same way they

couldn't it read in 1039 when fighting hitler despite his or your base not or strictures so i think he is or he has sent a semi but why did that happen well because. the united states and the u.k. the view would. rush out of the soviet union reading that if you would well now the united states and the u.k. are viewing russia and china very near it they don't want aid from china from china makes them angry you know it's you know they're talking about propaganda well 'd a guy named lenny to protect themselves keep going maybe i can jump in here peter lad get there have. a look you get from starting to get a move later churches get together not what contemporary politicians actually confront this trip trust me for facing now you know if they want this matter of political choice you compare

a man and see what what you need. now you can mean the difference kevin is the difference between then and now is it then you had people that had courage you had people that had some core and you know it even stalin i would say ok i mean if you look at sort of the soviet ideology dealing with the bush wild west and you know because it the world was absolutely shots when the the announcement of the nazi so be a great that was made public i mean because after decades of demonizing capitalism and all that someone had to flip on a dime and say for our survival we're going to have to work with these 2 characters you know roosevelt and result and churchill here i mean the point is is that there's a big ship ok there's no bishan today these people are walking around like blind cats go ahead the last 20 seconds go to you well i think there really isn't or why we cannot agree now with the west is precisely the same i do what would you let me

make up or what would your statement you 939 conclude here i mean for that it was an invasion of the soviet union what the receiver at the top talk about national socialism you're going negative sense we didn't talk naziism s. and i deal with you and that made rational was defense. in the same way now we don't want to believe in an un aggressor western microchip that simulate it would be nice if we present in there but it is there a very good point gentlemen we have run out of time i want to thank my guests most here in moscow and in court and i think i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at r.t.c. a next time remember. you

cannot be both with me yet you look. pretty bad in the end a cheer will. be used this is a real or operation or dying warning some of the wealthier neighborhoods it's been far more contained and the numbers are much lower than some of the more a neighborhood we're working with going towards an outside state is there just so

'd in the year it's all you got it is. i think it's safe to say into the night scene will be remembered the world over as one of the most trying things of 2020 by the end of march the country hit the hardest was the united states in new york city in principle. my friend maria lives in new york i've asked for its record a bit of her life during the pandemic. hi my name is maria out and she i am not talking to you. which is global at the center. of it. but i make so. this is this is my 15 month old son who's playing by who's solved as are most of the other kids in the park and normally there would be a single patch of grass available to sit on the little erie out here. so corn team

in new york is a little bizarre because there's 2 worlds so we're in a world where we feel very isolated we're working from home but we're still working and then there's this other part of new york we don't see when you look at like the map of how it is living some of the wealthier neighborhoods it's been far more contained and the numbers are much lower than some of the poorer neighborhoods it's like. i don't know what's going on over there talk to be honest. i got married i moved to new york 10 years ago before that i was toronto that's where i grew up. this is a bizarre. disgusting. by incredible place and you just.