and with the u.k. one of the world's worst hit countries has boris johnson's government following the science of following private health care and big pharma personnel we are the kings fund chief executive richard murray all of them all coming up today is going underground 1st what will the lasting human rights legacy be of coronavirus joining me now from london as the world renowned human rights barrister has defended everyone from wiki leaks founder julian assange to brazilian president lula co-founder of dowdy street chambers jeffrey robinson q.c. jeffrey thanks for coming back on before i even get to coronavirus actually want to talk about terrorism given you've defended people unjustly accused of terrorism but let's go to the cia which theoretically protects us from terrorism just take us through the interpol red notice this week on the case of a child jake killing in this country of a british subject by an alleged cia spy well the tragic is certainly the

word for it was a 19 year old boy on a bike and a large american car came at him almost wrong side of the road and he was killed knocked over and died in agony made of that night is parents see just the drive through the run and sucralose was a cia wife probably operative in the times and she was very quickly taken out of the country by. her american boss probably by her husband she's guilty she's admitted choose driving on the wrong side of the globe terrible accident groups but if the rule of law has any meaning she should be put be poor judge she's charged with causing death by dangerous driving. if the call to satisfy that it was an accident then it's

like prelude she will non-customer the offset and it must go i 'd explained this to her lawyer a lawyer rang me and i said look i'm acting to be done family and i can tell you that it's very likely that your client will get a custodial sentence even though the maximum of the page is called teen years but no one ever gets the maximum and i explained to her that the knife and she saying and mike on a 0 is saying 0 o.t. is far too heavy for this and when we may written made an extradition request compare torridon said this is abusive even though 14 times over the last few years britain has waived diplomatic immunity to allow the

embassy people to append in washington to be prosecuted because no quid pro quo the americans are holding out insisting that she should be above the law of course this. is going to mean that she car travel outside america because it puts a lot of litigation on any country where she lands to hand her over so that the international. action by interpol so are you currently representing the done yes there is a case in concerning whether she is what was in fact immune as a diplomat's why the interpol intervention is very important because it brings her to one. to america that you just can't do

this to him you can't pretend that your people who are in britain spying on europe and so forth the crouton. pretend that they're above the law and you can't behave as if they are you see that you made the accusation that as she may be a cia agent we invite to see they not have conservation well the cia have previously come back to going underground before i don't think they're coming back at the moment we obviously invade them and the us ambassador on there is mean there's me no proof no proof she works for the cia and the idea that interpol can issue a red notice against a member of the cia presumably will provide laughter in the department of justice in the united states where i do it i think it's a moot serious step but she is certainly the wife of a cia operative if you like at kraut. and to allow her

parents that a court and hopefully and they've made it clear. they want to embrace it if she comes and apologizes says she has it in print this is a matter of simple humanity go on national security issues boris johnson has never national security council meeting since february since the beginning of the outbreak of corona virus as i said you have defended so many people and justly accused and convicted of terrorist offenses where's all the terrorist threat gone suddenly has it been as coronavirus revealed that a lot of it is exaggerated i think one of the most amusing and ironic aspects of this red flu crisis was quite early on when it was discovered that isis was telling its operatives are. boy europe you could get

a virus so that's why perhaps they've been so quiet they're really cowards when it comes to a virus if not when it comes to blowing themselves up and we are now almost as worse off in terms of deaths than america i think the mistakes we have made will need looking after you don't this is not part of the law is to do in the middle of the pandemic but they come back like the culture of arteries and there will have to be a royal commission into how we were so unprepared and how we made so many wrong choices in the early days of the virus while there have been indications from ever elusive downing street or says there will be an independent inquiry of will have will be. i shove them lightly iraq war alone it doesn't go on

as long well i should just add of course there was a terrorist attack and edge of the claimed to be a nice attack in afghanistan in the past 4848 hours of terrorism has gone away in the global south i want to get to the lore that is being talked about here though actively it's been 2 months since a little wales at a jury trial would you make of lord chief justice lord burnette supporting a reduction of jurors from 12 to 7 doesn't seem to be passing but where apparently about to resume jury trials would you have won your cases with 17 years here i would hope so but. if whatever we do we have to face the fact burke in britain trial by jury is a rucked and you can't in this country resurgence to more than a year in jail without the option of putting your case to 12 good men and women and true that i think coronavirus or not it must

be the case but of course there are 30000 people waiting for their trial and magna carta or other precious rights says to no one showed justice be denied or delayed and hand it is being delayed because jury boxes are small usage cheek by jowl with each other with the 7 or 12 you expect to rape 2 opponents each others you. sure are innocent and this just work perhaps until we get a vaccine one suggestion has been bertram juries try that when another suggestion is to be to have the jury in a big building in a great mood where they can so she. disc. another suggestion which i think is got

something going poor it is to have jewelry waiver which is a system they haven't had no during austrade and it means an additional right who are defended not only does the defendant have a right to choose a jury trial but he or she also has a right to choose by judge alone but jeffrey you've been a vocal critic of austerity says 2008 and the cuts to the legal aid surely that would mean a defendant perhaps under duress to try and gather his block who have a tight judge never under you rex's group being entirely as it used to straighten canada or us tire a matter of the defendant with counselors available politicians lump sheep just as with minister it when they cut legal aid in the danger is that they will go we can do away with jury trials and have judges much cheaper to

do it it's not we must. ask against that no sign of the abandonment of jury trial yet from the johnson government as you say tens of thousands of cases on hold because of coronavirus it's worse arguably in other countries in india 30000000 in brazil reportedly 80000000 cases on hold and of course you remember 0 it's terrible there goes the their lead a man who's a raving who both sinatra who says oh it's only a little blue a man who. invites friends to barbecues why. people are dying but there's an interesting political development but also narrow his position to a man who mauro who is a prosecutor hopefully biased judge who.

put together what in my view were fabricate charges against a little more who has made his move was always in his mind was the reason why there's a bias judge she convict namely him who could present it because he is resigning as attorney general and use now are making as misdemeanors. result in both being impeached could wrote could morrow or work with president of the law former president left name it they they are sworn enemies because it was more for his own ambition and he wants to be president they will have to be certainly in a couple of years time a new election president that election will i suspect be between

you more of. the biased judge prosecutor and. and i should just say that of obviously you defended i debated lou let me give you my own opinion exactly which are we invite the brazilian ambassador on this program i should say also this occurs during a coup attempt in venezuela jeffrey wrote and i'll stop you there more from the world renowned human rights lawyer after this short break. join me every thursday on the alex salmond and obviously to get out of the world of politics or business i'm show business i'll see of an.

attitude. welcome back i'm still here with world renowned human rights lawyer geoffrey robertson q.c. in ecuador apparently according to virus impact being criticized widely it was across the ecuadorian embassy in london where julian a songe of wiki leaks was incarcerated allegedly tortured and produced it is really

no crime to children. exactly that they're for the news that we have shares that love will find a way even past the cia and the british police well i got to ask you about the say that case obvious he's a leader of the opposition was out of the c.b.s. when as we know attempts were made to incarcerated julian is under wiki leaks why is there nothing really being said by as against armor present perhaps for victory because he was of a c.b.s. and boris johnson joining this case that is we're hearing in the courts here in britain is a different case than in those days it was this week case sure it's basically about the extradition. but as far as the americans were they buy that pack they had a secret jury grand jury sitting and it wasn't until to

the end of their ways do not they were in any way wanted him but of course they did the pentagon who want to punish him for blowing the whistle they want to punish him for his leaks in 2010 there were apparently disability to buy his source chilled c.m.e. and they got their hands on joseph manning and they jailed 30 year we're not going to speed up a little jeffrey just chelsea manning obviously been released what is your understanding of the case of currently currently underway there who is and who is known as a beret widely criticized for deciding not to release a sergeant compassionate grounds from a prison belmarsh where i understand one place though not in free people of going

down with her own one person has died of coronavirus and here is that i think that . i think it's cruel what is cruel is the fact that he's charged with the pencil rain totally 175 years he won't get that but josee manning got years as he saw so the likelihood is that if extradited we will get about 15 years what for for exposing the truth and you issue is whether america is seeking this extradition for political purposes and whether it is an infringement of freedom of expression but the problem is it starts again hearing evidence and. it could go on for a couple of years and there is this man who is not. fully yet

can be made subject to all sorts of late bracelets and electronic devices to ensure that he never steps outside. and be. in britain for 2 to 3 years before the case is decided jever odds are good as if they carry. the care the highest coronavirus death toll in europe despite boris johnson's government insisting it was well prepared for the pandemic but according to german government supporting labor politicians johnson's covert policy is now a thinly veiled declaration of class war joining me now via skype from london is the king's one chief executive richard myers thank you so much richer for coming on so some people are estimating 5 percent of all care home elderly people are being killed by covais that want to get a class war that's going to demographic war your senior fellow professor richard i'm for is claiming it was

a sophie's choice the canting infected elderly patients or hospitals to care of some test. to then with temperatures and go to 11 suggests well i think 2 things of happened in care homes and the 1st certainly is a real pressure from the n.h.s. at the start of the code epidemic in england of getting people out of hospital some of them into their own homes but also some of them into care homes and i think we really need to know exactly how often were people sent out with some degree of symptoms and what health care homes were given what we're hearing is anecdotal and in many cases that the pressure to free up beds in the n.h.s. led to patients being discharged into care homes but possibly without the kind of infection security controls that really should have been in place given you're at the king's fund is that credible there was certainly was a huge push in the n.h.s. to trying to clear our capacity at the same time we did need to follow up very quickly with what help and what support care homes would be given not only because

patients are being discharged from hospitals but simply because there is such high risk anyway of their own star of relatives going in and out of the care home and possibly bringing in the disease you see a lot of people are talking about the fact that these questions really need to be raised at a future independent inquiry rather than now what's your opinion because arguably care homes the elderly they've been worst hit by purse 28 austerity is a war and has this been a war only elderly in the sick well actually if you look at. incomes of the big recession in 2008 the elderly actually did rather better through that it was young people in particular that took the brunt so i don't think there's been a war on the elderly in that way there clearly needs to be some way of learning the lessons that coded from the coded pandemic and we got to remember that it's not that everything was perfect when this began in february things like the

relationship between care homes and the n.h.s. have been approached. and for a very long time there was almost a breakdown in relationship with general practitioners early in the year about who was going to provide care in care homes but what i really want to get to i suppose is was this a deliver a deliberate choice by the british government back in 2014 you said tory government de facto slashing of n.h.s. services to fund the bank bailouts was a political choice despite what you just said about the elderly the un special rapporteur on poverty said the elderly were subject to the political choice of the immiseration of the vulnerable of course there are many more people that are vulnerable than the elderly. people with mental health conditions with physical disabilities so the elderly are one group that are vulnerable but they did get something from protection through this period the poor in general did not it's the

case that the system that we were in by the time of february covert arrived was leaving a lot of like services and a great deal of difficulty and h.s. was actually slightly protected against many other social care definitely was not elements of support for low income people to flee was not so the covina rind it was already dealing with a society in a country that had some real vulnerabilities in it the reason i am focusing on the poor as your will well know is that the king's one was founded in the 1900 centuries to focus on the poor as access to health care is it difficult for the king's fun to be independent when your funded by matt hancock who of course gives us these briefings about coronavirus well fortunately for the kings fund what we were set up we were given a foundation and that gives us a significant degree of independence and we ensure that we are we do draw income from other sources whether it's research or the things that no one of them is big

enough that we could live without it and. that secures our independence and if you again look back to the things they said in 2014 we're clearly not shy of criticizing the government when we think it should be but do you believe that the landmark social health care or social act 2012 do you think that that has dictated our response to coronavirus the privatization or as john pilger the veteran journalist said on this program the dirty war on the n.h.s. that that act. was symbolic of. the 2012 act we think what was not a success it was in many ways set the n.h.s. in the wrong direction on a path of competition we really wanted was needed was better integration of services and we've been very clear about that i think what we're seeing through the coronavirus is one more of it unfortunate legacies for ever for the system is the

n.h.s. is governed as a as a separate body of course care homes or social care they're largely commissioned by local authorities and that division i think has been one of the reasons why the system struggled so hard to really provide a unified view that brought together the n.h.s. that brought together social care that brought together public health because you were at mckinsey did you see any understanding or consciousness of these kinds of problems ahead of time given that of course it was the gordon brown government that commissioned a mckinsey report that is widely seen as the beginning of the 20 and 12 are health and social care act i was at mckinsey long before that so i was back in the department of health by the time of the gordon brown administration so i don't think. because he was very influential on the approach taken by andrew lansley he written up his plans many many years before really back in the blair

administrations you could see the proposals coming from andrew lansley which was really in many. as a continuation of the policies that that labor government introduced competition choice the coalition didn't invent those the challenge really with all of those was with an ageing population increasing long term conditions competition just wasn't the right model what you needed was to try and build links between services between g.p.'s between hospitals between social care and trying to integrate plan it was the way forward rather than trying to create a competitive market so who actually is guiding this science that the government has been saying it is following mckinsey obviously have advised a big pharmaceutical companies and went sabbatical and speaks he was a scandal hit j.f.k. when similar chris when he speaks he works or has got funding from the bill gates foundation when the deputy c.m.o. jonathan mann tam speaks he used to work with

a ventus known for the philippine safety scandal what exactly is britain getting in terms of scientific advice is it the advice of people who have previously been on the payroll of companies implicated in 100000000 dollar scandals. i think the world of. advanced science is not a particularly big one so you will find through people's careers that they've been in academia they've been they work for the pharmaceutical industry become so provided advice to the government i know the japanese own financial times modeling says it's maybe $50000.00 or more deaths from coronavirus obviously taking excess death numbers in but if you believe the government figures at least the health care service death rate is not disproportionate to the population but we you're aware the government had rejected p.p. recommendations back in 2017 when jeremy hunt was health secretary jeremy hunt of

course now head of the health select committee charged with the interrogating presumably matt hancock. about his performance during this epidemic no we weren't aware and i think some of the issues around planning for an emergency again one of the things will need to see is just how austerity few played into that maintaining big stockpiles are there of pharmaceuticals in which would have been done particularly against the potential of a flu pandemic is one thing also things like p p clearly i think we can say that if you look at the responses that have been made by places like south korea by singapore by taiwan they seem to be better prepared than certainly the united kingdom but also probably most of western europe have also struggled with some of these issues so there's a potentially good there to austerity of course happy b. there's a scandal according to a lot of british mainstream media that the p.p.

was out of date so i come back you said austerity is this a class war is it incompetence on the part of the boris johnson government or is this a deliberate herd immunity strategy designed to kill off the vulnerable in the poor i don't think. that's the that's the case i think the herd immunity ideas even prisons around i don't think it survived as a concept for very long before curve it came along it was very very well known that lower people with lower incomes have shorter lives spend more of their lives in ill health the current course isn't unusual in that it hurts poor 'd more vulnerable people more and it's an area that we struggle to make much progress and that's despite the n.h.s. so code in the us isn't something you it's unfortunately played on the same fault lines that we see in other areas of care and general life expectancy across different social groups rich or murray thank you. that's over the show will be back

on saturday to speak about the language of justice to israeli historian dylan power play 10 years to the day when the father of modern linguistics john truong was refused entry to the west bank by the u.k. back to saudi government until then what you had to join me on the ground on you tube sound bad facebook and instagram. with good reason public discourse is focused on addressing and finally each containing the cobe in $1000.00 pandemic now the focus is on devastated economies where the recession will it morph into a depression will the recovery be a u. d. or an else.

ya get. used to it the way you do you think you could keep to do it but if you could. just go somewhere somebody else and that's what you want. them to sure this leads with. just the cute. clinton you see if there's no one on the islam muslim to. destroy you please. give food to the hotel i'm sure you don't mind me i'm coming from you my feeling for to do you know more.

if european nations slowly lifting as many fear that if. in fact we spoke to a representative from the w.h.o. about whether people have rights of the work. of the 19 mafia bosses who were arrested across italy after a spike in criminal activity comes up the convicted monsters would temporarily release jail on the plan to stop the corona virus from spreading in prison. and the man from texas with a rare muscle wasting disease tries to get to russia before it's too late and the clinic offering a treatment for his ailment.