well ok so because you raise me so. bald is gradually rolling back lock down the shares as a coronavirus today shows sort of easing off talk about this are joined by paul turner rachel carson professor of ecology and evolutionary biology at yale university and professor of microbiology at the el school of medicine. paul turner rachel carson professor of ecology and evolutionary biology at yale university professor of microbiology at yale school of medicine is really great to have you with us so much to talk about. all right so 1st bank 1st countries

are gradually lifting lockdown measures which is understandable as economies sort of falling apart and people need to get back to work but it is this is still with us there are new cases all the time look at germany look at south korea would you say it's too early to start looking like dollars frictions oh 1st thank you for having me it's a pleasure to be here and i think the concern that you raise is a very important question when exactly to reopen aggressively do we reopen because people are getting understandably anxious either from. being unable to work just being at home mental illness is you start to kick in and yet at the same time we know as you mentioned there are plenty of asymptomatic cases there's plenty of spread yet to happen and it's a very delicate balance between when should we reopen and when can we go ahead

with many antivirals vaccine research everything that we can do to help those who are afflicted as the disease spreads so this is a very unique time in human history and a very difficult one to make these decisions but if you were actually let's say here in charge your head of w h l r if you are present when they penetrate when would you say it's time to sort it ease up down my preference would be if we could to ease up on the lockdown after 2 or 3 more months if we really start to well if we embrace the need to continue to not see. nixon large groups the way we had become accustomed to in so many years not to do as much travel around the world as we had done in prior years we know this is going to help in this fundamental epidemiology there's no huge mystery but this would help as we continue to grapple with the problem so the issue is in

others if we're to be as patient as i seem to be willing to be this patient and the answer is clearly no and that's why this is an issue is how quickly can we go forward as well as how prudently can we wake. so delhi a share earlier said no reason to believe that polemic will come to a close in summer but russia has authorities places they're staying at the barracks because there are patches at air temperature over 30 degrees celsius. what's your view do you support that you will hot summer days may call it larry king live it's great because my view based on the evidence that i've seen is that we would probably be fortunate this summer and any place is experiencing warmer climates we're going to be benefited by this probably with reduced transmission and it's important i answered with a probably because of course we don't know what we are dealing with a new problem however i have to say based on the evidence and i've seen the experts who i've heard from

a literature that i've read is that we should benefit from this so the idea of moving forward in opening reopening prudently with the expectation that we're going to get the benefit of reduced transmission i think is a real possibility and that would be my hope is that we navigate properly are we all of our of those who say that yeah we'll probably get it at the end of the summer but come autumn and start it shares drop we are going to be great for a 2nd wave out to agree with that or we could actually not be having his kool-aid i agree with that because we don't know yet how much of the benefit of herd immunity is going to kick and i know you've discussed that earlier in your show with experts so if we do benefit from herd immunity helping to reduce the cut off the chains of transmission so that people have never seen the virus or won't be as likely to be infected by it because these chains of transmission will be broken then in that case we would benefit from the herd immunity keeping in around the time that we

would expect the cold time seasonality it's also be problematic so i try to be an optimist but i also believe the data and i read as many of the papers as i can and i'm cautiously optimistic really get some benefits from herd immunity that really gets benefits from the summertime seasonality reduce transmission before the inevitable return in the colder months. so then you heard of hours shares in learning to 6 percent of the genome to a back or virus discovered in china in 2032 and this cyrus was considerable low risk and not really thought back then that it could mutate translate to humans causing pool demick like these you study the ways viruses and that to evolve so tell me is are you no way at all to predict how a bat is cool mutate i think there are ways to predict how a virus could mutate there are ways to predict how it can evolve and it seems like

an insurmountable very difficult problem but it's more about which of the genes that are most important for that are as a disease as it evolves and sees a new host as a thing that we can key in on and i'm not revealing some history of a people as well but what it shows is that evolution is very hard to predict especially from the point of organismal interactions so you now have a virus it's entering a new host of humans we don't know enough about our in our own immune world immunity reaction to this iris we don't know enough about its interactions with immunity and reservoir host such as bats so i think what's emerging now let's use that term too lightly but what's emerging is that we need a lot more study of virus host interactions and wild animals more to get a greater understanding of how do you work i think that would allow us to make a better prediction about how many virus that could emerge and humans would interact with us but that is such as that it's like other animals to who all are

potentially narrow as. this is their place of fire siskel spread out to rats issue of setting of the animals they're potentially. you know a host too dangerous for the risk of viruses to last few minutes i love that question because it recognizes the scope of the problem i think you you may know this your listeners may know this was a really. in a world of viruses they are the most common thing on this planet the effects also human or life including humans as well as all the animals that live on the planet so it's pretty much impossible to do a blanket surveillance and all that biology became you're not well we can't c.n.n. on bus he she said seemed to be almost. for us in countering them in the lie of receiving them as food that's on in the wild so this is what's going to happen in the next few years for sure to the next decade is going to see

a lot more. basic research on these interactions and humans have with wild animals what we consume for food is a big task but i think we are up for it there are a lot of people who study by rolla gee of other organisms not just in humans and that's really what we're talking about here are the viruses were for their interactions with organisms that are not humans what can we predict about what we careen they jump into. so that i was talking to a very young russian there ologist a couple of days ago and he was sort of proposing this whole medea's you. know like out of all the viruses that are out there a potential viruses and they could be hundreds of thousands we only know about 6000 out of the 6000 i 3 or 4 are plant based viruses so where to get a database of all the no viruses a study that would really help us go forward with you know coming up with medication and coming out with the facts seem to know that if that were to happen

how long would that take that you actually study all the potential viruses that will we know are out there. good question i think unfortunately the study of all the viruses that are out there will take centuries intentionally unless our methods for studying them improve radically timbs of the high throughput ability to do it. a better way to you know in my opinion is to. the end unspecific virus. so we know corona virus is a problematic we're a bit complacent about mers from the virus are strong a virus one other corona virus issues that have happened in this century and we were a little late to that game we didn't we worry a lot about flu and understandably so but now so much attention is going to be paid to corona viruses the key is what else is out there there's certainly other viruses that might have variants particular species there in some family of viruses that we consider to be

a night for humans and yet you see very. easy ones to protect ourselves against but what if we don't and this is the problem with studying pandemics you don't know and so you know it's easier to be reactive than proactive but i hope that we are entering a new renaissance here i don't think we need any more evidence to show us that this is a vitally important problem ok say we're talking about carotid viruses because this is the burning question now and from what we know there are around 30 types of coronaviruses known to us would you say it is more important to work on a universal vaccine that would actually be excellent at all of this they're occurring viruses are surely working for a vaccine that is afaik to each one of them i think currently the goal is probably for those who are chasing the vaccine to work against this corona virus and the reason is that we are fortunate in seeing that it's not changing very much at the genetic level over time it's not like

a flu problem or we have to really come up with a new vaccine each flu season because the virus is changing so quickly and what worries me about a universal vaccine against all coronaviruses is that universal banks things are just so difficult to establish and prove that they have safety and efficacy across that a group that's a tall order worry about bad as the goal in a more realistic goal would be. vaccines are being this current corona virus problem that doesn't seem to be changing very quickly we will face the issue of waning immunity and i'm sure you've heard of that in others as well as we have no evidence yet and if somebody is infected with this current corona virus and that they recover from it they're protected long term through immunity if they were that would be wonderful but there's just no evidence to show that in my opinion at this point so we will be faced with perhaps in the back scene and then getting it again

just to unity but i don't see we're at the point right now where the strategies want to create a universal vaccine against all corona boxes fortunately the other ones that affect us are very. quiet so i'm sure you heard that tell top that irrigates cable 2015 everyone's talking about right now it was about how unprepared for that it was for an epidemic following the ball outbreak and he actually proposed dealing with future badasses like we do with horse and i don't care for so standby trade that have infrastructure in place costly trade practice to restart and they may not have enough to have all of what we'll be able to see something like that after they sit at it. and i think that's i think that's very likely is that the global economic problem is also in from this i think of course only is as big or a big driver as the health issue so there are many people are unfortunately getting

sick and dying and yet we don't even know the extent of the global economy. problems that have resulted from this and demi so what bill gates and others might be going for it if you can sort of prove idea that she taken seriously prepare ourselves for the future we know this is going to happen again being a highly we're very population dense. and many areas species were highly vulnerable so this from just fundamental epidemiologist what one should expect were her patiently and we certainly could be better prepared about the future we're going towards that is just a terrific goal i definitely applaud that effort or that idea just very quickly i want to go too deep into that what do you make of that possibility out immediately past voice that some countries are tolerate. i think that we have probably sufficient knowledge you that we could pull it off. i worry that it's

going to contribute to a lot of what we already see in the world is how does an app not who has access to brown the planet from an economic standpoint that's clearly the case that everybody can travel as easily is because they can happens i'm to move away from their job or just take a vacation etc there's all sorts of restrictions that adding a layer of restriction to it sounds like a pretty daunting and not a very fun way to move forward if you know at the time or since i'm a realist so if this is a short period of time when i feel like humans are maybe inconvenience or good purpose it seems like one of those times and if there has to be a reduced ability to just move freely around the planet and if we're better able to track who has been exposed to the virus was recovered from it i can't say that that's a bad idea way we'll be right back with turner professor of ecology law from alice

at yale university talking about what's going to happen to lessen the nearest teachers stateless. the dropping of the f.b.i. case against michael lynch reveals what so many of us have long believe russia gate was a crude and slot beach invention undermine the outcome of a presidential election. how do you feel about the current occupant of the white house it was an attempt to tell me the corporate liberal media side with the conspiracy.

because. you knew you could you could. do it but if you could. talk to. someone in the telescope that's as much of one. story. just for you. then you for me my feeling for to.

and we're back with professor paul turner president microbiology and ecology at yale university paul iraq back to sorry parapet searching sorry for it he meant our president a virus of generations and generations ago so our game to remember is how to fight certain factions and then we as faces grow more resistant over time and then it got me thinking how come some people go through jihad and their kids go through chicken pox is left. so this is the interesting thing about interactions between humans and certain passages so you said many things that are very intriguing in your statement one is that you see and genomes the ghosts of infection so in the long

long ago evolution of our predecessors on this planet if they were interacting with viruses and being infected enough those viruses got it once all the germline so if they are asked for generation to generation through gametes then they become part of our genome and that's what we can recognise really when you do human genome sequence it interesting recent listenings there was a lot of then a social good so part of it for example these the proper formation of a sense and the inability of the mother to reject the child is something that seems like it's parasite rowing within the human body experience treating that's a viral gene that allows an interaction to work well in all placental mammals analysis go fast forward to more of the current day yes there are virus genes that might be in our genome that help us in a way express these genes and prevent us from being attacked by other viruses as vigorously so i take your questions i mean would if we've passed already had so

many hundreds of years or thousands of years into the future the viruses of today are shaping up or we should future definitely the case. and the ways of avenues very unclear and we haven't. see how that happens or still trying to decipher how 3rd asked what is undoubtedly happening. i was also i was training asked if that had our immune system involved kill al over time and he come to say that iris is more have to develop when you take a chance you get it's honest. i say yes that's a that's an intriguing question so the immune system to me as fascinating and i should say very transparently i'm not an immunologist i try and read up on the topic as much as i can it's there immunologist so the interesting they are immunology is one of the few things that's me reflects increased complexity over time in evolution so evolution doesn't always have this increasing complexity it

has plenty of single cell organisms around today there were around billions of years ago for example and they're doing quite a few but the point of increasingly complex system is prone to breakdown and breaks in the armor so the thing about immune response to some pathogens in ways that we don't entirely know they could be too big a risk you're seeing this in the current and to make some individuals are being infected in their immune systems are in a way seemingly overreacting to the problem creating a worse problem maybe hastening it becoming a mortality ship and i don't think that this is very well understood but it's certainly very real so what i'm getting at is the unfortunate consequence of an increasingly price immune system is that yes it creates vulnerabilities because it is a complex immune system it works very well to protect this and i'm very happy i have it at the same time this is the root cause of auto immunity the mis firey the immune system to solve problems and actually turn the immune system on

you and even korea has worse problems as a result i think that's what you were getting at. was let me know. yes i know you've also said that viruses are immensely deborah hersman. plentiful on their planet so we could be a factor with a ton of different barracks and serve as a host to them and never even knew where they and that we also see what kind of ice island some people asphalt in that they don't even know they had corona. you know put aside the 19th our most viruses harvest to humans there you know harmless to humans or me in mountain off of the spot in a commune barrier so then we didn't have to wait for him by used it we just have barriers against the infection and there's lots of ways that's built in to the geno so he had about 3000 level way for me to answer your question is it is a bit like swimming in

a sea of viruses on this planet they're in the air we breathe the water we drink the suit we and by and large a lot of them are incapable of infecting her cells but interestingly some of them will strike syria so they may be in fact a plant matter and you eat salad and you and just a plant virus and it exits the other end tags and it can go on and infect a plant after that so fortunately we never know when some viruses enter and leave our body because they do us absolutely no harm and we fight them off successfully and the ones we do care about are at the so-called top of what's been referred to as a pathogen pyramid at the base of the pyramid are very many microbes including this is that you see every day as you marge upwards. you know as you traverse the top of this germinate you have mentioned gets at those that are of epidemic potential work and then it's ensuring they get the most attention deservedly so and the unfortunate consequence is that we pay so much attention to them for all we know

coronaviruses might be interacting with other viruses that are already in some people in some way in the directly or indirectly and this might be a clue to why the corona virus might be especially deadly and that person so that's a number. some of what you call partly microbial disease that's a big phrase just to say multiple microbes contributing to disease and i would have to say the best a very under study problem because it's a difficult problem to study it's not as a scientist a big nor good it's just a difficult one to grapple with as you just a variety of data sets there what's making him safe reverses 1st they could be due to some virus that's lurking in there that has not been described at all inside it's so i think we need to march in those efforts as well the secondary infections i come in with around a virus even non viral bacterial infections and seem to be contributing to secondary pneumonia as and deaths and some individuals this really has to be

examined from a poly microbial effort. to. do we have any essential lattices that live in us there are important actually good for our well being kind of like to carry that material well maybe so the residents of our micro biome are diverse and it includes viruses and that's something times are bridges the viral so just like the micro biome that most people have heard about that familiar with it different parts of your body you'll have different types of viruses that are characteristics residing in that part of your body and exactly what they're doing there is not quite clear are they so-called free riders of these is there in we don't have any benefit or detriment to having them there are they interacting in some circumstances with the residents of our micro biome to synergistically keep us healthy i think that's plausible i don't know of any very strong direct evidence for it but i think i like your question because it's also

a great one for future effort viral has not been as well characterized from person to person. and interaction with things that we do every day like our diet much as a. vegetarian diet does. non-vegetarian knight in tribute to your viral in it it might just because anything seems to be possible because it's with my provider so i i think i don't have a strong definitive answer yet because i don't believe science has found a definitive answer yet the positive versus negative consequences of interacting with these viruses that are with us every recycle day is a great possibility for future work. so one virus later said to about 7 hijacks cells to replicate and he has an experiment with liberated virus into that wrong. they want to sustain a virus they send that it would eventually die out before it is essential heart. this ecology work with

a colleague not until just in question has we really looked into this with hiv infection and could you develop schieber in a way h l b. approaches the so let me add up so somebody was infected with h i c is typically her church they are simply at best we can create antiviral combinations that keep a load of virus down in their body and city live a long life without viral load increases one point that they become in 8 mission so the in this yes we looked into this idea that you could take some cell type in the body that is less precious than your immune cells such as blood cells could you generate was something that was attractive. to inspect those cells instead in the case of a study that might be a good strategy because it's normal nucleus and red blood cells so therefore there's no way for h.p.v. enter that cell actually rappel it so machinery hijacked because there's no d.n.a.

in a nucleus so that was a fun project to work on me we moved to the lawn we didn't advance that research very much but i think they were raising this issue of time that we're living in right now i believe is a special on we'll look back on. when it seemed as if far out there or left field service new ideas were little too much for biomedicine another were scrambling to find ways to solve the endemic in a way i wonder if we're going to enter into what's for when there's a little more. within the realms of safety to examine ideas that are pretty atypical ones for bias can we bridge and engineering principles other realms of science biology to come up with you know is this really an idea that might be a game changer in a day put a little bit of effort towards doing it over several months or even years we might just develop something that is so new to the world and so biomedicine it will be

a major transition and to me that is my hope is that once we know what this problem i mean that it's the other side of it whatever the other side may be is that we're really trying to head straight mind you with some very out of the box think of what we might do just so you know by tomorrow. i hope we humans get a chance to see based out of the box a face that could be a stellar new mazing for the whole humanity thank you very much for this wonderful interview for his insight it was keep all the past stay safe and hopefully we'll talk soon a.j. when terms are better than the condemned it is our thank you for having me there's airless.

divided the in here will. look more of an operation in dying why are some of the wealthier neighborhoods it's been far more contained in the numbers are much lower than some of the foreign neighborhoods to start a city that's increasing we're working with can source outside of the state is there just so it is here so like anything out of this. seems wrong well we just don't. get to shape

out just to become educated and in gain from it because the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground. hello and welcome to crossfire where all things are considered the dropping of the f.b.i. case against michael lynch reveals what so many of us of long believe russia gate was a true.