time after time through we're going underground as coronavirus stops protests all around the world forcing ballasted meehan's to commemorate the 72nd anniversary of america behind closed doors in what's called the world's largest open air prison camp guarded by u.k. weapons coming up in the show a dissident israeli historian and author of the ethnic cleansing of palestine ilan pappe a gels going underground why palestine is still the issue especially during the coronavirus pandemic and if cove it comes from climate change can the global elites bioengineer their rescue professor on the dollar even on how the war on climate

change will be armed by nationalism all the some more coming up in today's going underground but 1st on wednesday's show we interviewed the chief executive of britain's kings fund richard mari he said he believes that failures of the 2012 tory health and social care act have been highlighted by the british response to coronavirus i then asked him this because you were at mckinsey did you see any understanding or consciousness of these kinds of problems ahead of time given that of course it was the gordon brown government that commissioned a mckinsey report that is widely seen as the beginning of the 20 and 12 health and social care act i was at the kids the long before that so i was back in the department of health by the time of the gordon brown administration so i don't think. because he was very influential on the approach taken by andrew lansley he'd written up his plans many many years before in response to these allegations mckinsey and company. referred us to this statement which says mckinsey does not

advise on policy it was not involved in drawing up the proposals in the health and social care bill it is for government to set policy. meanwhile in the past 24 hours in the middle east palestinians and the world so-called largest open air prison of commemorative the 72nd anniversary of the naca without physical protest you to coronavirus at least one ngo an edge is that israel backed by the u.s. and using british weapons is taking advantage of a pandemic to expand settlements illegal under international law joining me now via skype from haifa in the middle east is historian and author of the ethnic cleansing of palestine professor hanan pappy thank you so much and for coming on you coined the word no more aside this is been a day like no other except where there are reports of an alleged israeli killing of a teenager in the occupied territories record u.k. arms sales to israel no public mobilization remind us of the significance of not by

day in the 1st place for palestine and the world. with a commemorates what happened in $148.00 and all happening only $48.00 was a crime against humanity that he still denied or not acknowledge even today in that here these are if forces expelled half of palestine's book relation the militia type of palestine's villages and destroyed most of the palestinian towns it also tried to wipe out the palestinian 'd from palestine as history and this is actually the real source of their own going conflict not only between israelis and palestinians but in many other parts of the middle east so they're not but they are there to remind us that there is a huge formative event that happened 'd more than 70 years ago but when it's not a claw it's not engaged it's very difficult to sort all the other problems the 2nd thing that they're not but it does it tell. the ethnic cleansing of palestine the

meaning. 'd of this project was taking over someone else's land 'd and getting rid of the people who 'd live there has not stopped the 48 it has been going on with different means from like the 40 8 'd until today so it's a common aeration of the past but it's also a call of alert of what goes on even 'd today motivated by the same ideology and policies 'd of which the persons have been victims for more than 70 years i want to get on to today and israel and palestine but since you mention the word zionism i could tell you the political classes in britain consider even the term often to be used used in the way you just have as and the semitic indeed as a guest amen and they believe it here is shadow foreign secretary even said to condemn atrocities by israel was anti-semitic piers we are in a very strange age where israelis is recognizing 'd the semitism in 'd order to

stifle debate about palestine the silence criticism against its policies would be surprising is not so much that is or wants to do it but that so many british politicians and public figures are willing to go along with it of course there is a difference between zionism and judaism and therefore there is a difference between anti's and ism semitism in a body of confused as it is either an ignorant person or someone who manipulates the truth in order not to allow the reality on the ground in palestine to be discussed genuinely and candidly between everyone who is interested in peace and reconciliation in the land when it comes to politics in israel arab m.p.'s all of branches after this repeated israeli election and the only branches into been crushed by. he gantz an architect of the. israeli military operations of course in

occupied territories. is it true that the israeli government and of course my compan secretary of state from the united states arrived is it true that the israeli government is using coronavirus to annex illegally and x. person in and. i think it's a bit more complex. this particularly israeli government or let's say or the netanyahu government since 2009 have been incrementally annexing parts of the 'd west bank kicking out people who live there 'd and actually unilaterally turning at least area seen in the west bank which is 60 percent of the west bank and in total part of a greater israel what has changed with the deal of the century of president trump and 'd what we're talking about today is whether this should be declared openly as a legal process and now the 1st one the 2nd point is that since

2009 there is no real ideological opposition to the likud the main party which of mr netanyahu is is the leader off and all the attempts like the 'd last one by guns and his other 3 ex generals from 'd the 'd israeli army 'd is bound to fail because they don't offer an ideological alternative and therefore all that mr netanyahu has to do is to break these coalitions who are peak areas to begin with and he's very successful one should say to the that he's are successful in doing it the coronavirus it was less important i think didn't and you know it was going put into guns to justify a betrayal of his promises to the electorate 'd never to serve in a netanyahu 'd government that are now would have been where he had been 'd even without the coronavirus 'd his main problem is the legal system but it seems so far that he's been 'd very good in 'd manipulating that system as well. well of

coronaviruses transform than the political fortunes of gansa netanyahu it arguably hasn't changed activities by the israeli military what are you making of a not only israeli airstrikes of course on syria in the past few weeks but an apparent increase in child prisoner detention in the past few weeks apparently in violation of the 4th geneva convention of article 76 children as young as 12 being detained by in effect an occupying power. well it will be in a before whenever there is a restriction in the global in global politics in this time the major structuring is the coronavirus then there is a bit of an escalation in the israeli actions on the ground were should be totally clear about it beez actions are brutal and oppressive even without. a crisis like the coronavirus but definitely the israelis are using the international

focusing on 'd the crisis a little iris to. to execute policies busy maybe in that there were more careful in implementing them or at least in implementing them all a large scale and it seems that all this is what we see now more arrests of people without trial ready arrests of children as you have mentioned. taking over exposure creating lead and in using force in order to continue an incremental ethnic cleansing of the palestinians in the west bank well the israeli government denies all that the israeli ambassador to invite on this program which really deny that and while there are shortages of medical equipment and medicines in gaza we haven't seen the bombing of schools and hospitals as has been enacted by the israeli air force previously. you know has been spared this ready exploitation. no

for international indifference. because also hamas is not able to continue its struggle under 'd these 'd conditions it's an absurd situation in a way so far because castro feels not happen in the gaza strip because nobody's 'd allowed in and nobody is allowed out under the seat so yes we know how the virus will spread in the world so in a way for a while the people who does a we're immune but we know the moment that this may change doesn't have the 'd health infrastructure to deal with it and secondly. the israelis have not changed the policies 'd on the siege and the blockade which has so far create the conditions which the united nation has described as an 'd little this is nothing to do with the virus is 'd actually far worse than the virus in terms of the potential for human catastrophe well opposition parties in israel would claim

to have ideological differences with netanyahu do you think actually they can march when the european union complains about an edge an accession yet more illegal annexation during the time of coronavirus of west bank land and the british foreign office is james cleverley has said the britain will not support the annexation while suggest. the labor leader remains apparently silent over there is an alleged scandal involving him and money from an edge to israeli lobbyist for me katie to jeremy corbyn scores of other m.p.'s here are demanding u.k. sanctions on israel if it continues this an exemption policy well 1st of all there is at least used to be a liberal zionist point of view but it has been diminished as for what you mentioned about britain it's a great shame that the politicians in 'd the labor party and also the liberal party who with them. article of of decency in them. voiced.

criticism on israeli policies 'd showed solely directly with the 'd oppressed palestinian people but had to pay very high price for that in some cases by by giving up their record their political careers i think that it's very difficult to see. where with the brave politicians both in the u.k. any united states emerge from when the lesson they 'd would learn is that if you 'd stand for palestine you have to take into account you will be smeared. you will 'd be intimidated and everything will be done to destroy you 'd as a politician i do hope that among 'd the younger politicians there will be such great people because as we 'd know until now it was actually the very old ones very sunders and german kori who were ringback willing 'd to take the risk and in the

case of germany maybe even in the case of bernie 'd they paid a very high price to political price for this kind of or ringback positions and opinions it's also the end of s. or no i'm traumas cannot be allowed into the west bank where he went through lectionary of course supported bernie sanders now telling people to support a jew biden just finally this week's pump am visit was it about the deal of the century or was it also about a future war on iran whether the pandemics over or no. well you never know because you know these conversations can be done by phone so it's become it means 'd there is a symbolic value for such a visit it's not that they don't have the means of communicating without meeting even of the social distancing one with the other but i suspect that why they me they will 'd discuss syria and iran for sure but i really think it is the american

kind of way o. saying walk the walk but because when you 'd talk the talk if this is the american 'd wish for these raids to to do things but not to openly 'd shout about them being with learned that these but this particular political elite does not believe in such a distinction between walking the walk 'd and talking to talk and they would push for clear legislation that is more than half of the west bank to be 'd part of the state of its present i thank you. thank you very much after the break as oligarch own nature nation media desperately promotes post pandemic economic growth we investigate the roots of covert climate change and how a new liberal response may transform the global balance of power forever owns them all combine to have going underground.

join me every thursday on the alex simon show and i'll be speaking to guests of the world of politics sports business i'm show business i'll see you then. divide in the in. please do you think. that we're not rationing going to mean what some of the wealthier neighborhoods it's been far more contained in the numbers are much lower than some of the more a neighborhood in star city. we think we're working with can source outside of the state is there just so 'd anything here so i'll let you have it is.

the. welcome back this weekend extinction rebellion plans to flood the u.k. towns and cities with civil disobedience to protest climate change credited with catalyzing coronavirus but his new liberal governments try to kickstart their economies politician lobbying elites planning to bioengineer themselves out of climate catastrophe that's what experts in the u.k. parliament and u.s. congress professor anatol lieven claims his new book is climate change in the nation state the realist case and i started by asking him about u.s. military base in circle mint of china his london washington ramp up their threats against beijing well part of the book is about trying to project ourselves 100 years into the future and put ourselves in the shoes of our descendants and think about how they will look at us and i say in the book that several of the security

issues that us western security needs and militaries china. the enemy but but specifically in this case these. sandbanks and reefs in the china sea that the chinese fortification of them is a threat to the region a threat to the united states a threat to the rules based international order and of course 100 years from now nobody will think this is significant because that will be under water again in even you saying that none of these brilliant strategic minds that it have it i think tanks that inform through our media public discourse didn't the president of the daughter as far as i mean as far as i know i'm the only security analyst who has talked about this but of course people who are trapped by their traditions you know their conventional inherited thinking about security risks i mean look at

nato and its attitudes to russia you know a lot of this could have been simply reproduced from 1955 or just change the date and rather than it being a cultural. dimension or context you identify and we've actually been hearing it more often on this program a demographic generational probably really is a problem of how people have grown up in here and i mean one of the points of the book is that it's an attempt to shake people both on the right and the left out of these inherited ideological comfort zones or go cold war while on the right i mean and in the military and security establishments yes i mean the obsession with essentially cold war agendas now well the new cold war as they call it against china and russia and on the left you know is an instinctive hostility is to the nation state to national identity is to nationalism all the things which i say

you know we actually need to mobilize in order to generate action against climate change so of course we have a lot of this debate during the brics it to go she ations and battles in this country where are those who favored remains said we need these super national entities like europe. the idea of nationalism in the context of betting climate change getting really into the debate to explain how nationalism is evident and is also something that has to be harnessed well it really comes from 2 things the 1st is. i believe and i think it's pretty obvious it's states that will need to take action international institutions can't actually do anything they can try to mobilize people you know to convince people but in the end it's the states that have to raise the taxes that have to change the policies and similarly i'm in these international movements which i'm not against i mean i think they're very useful most of them but their whole point is to try to push states into taking action and

so the next question is well how do you mobilize enough people within states to do that and especially because you know of this di lemma which has been talked about so much that you're asking people to make sacrifices and in the sacrifices are going to be real for the sake of future generations and that's where nationalism comes in because the nation by institute by definition is something that exists in time you know we inherit it from our ancestors we try to pass it on to our descendants and at that point you have an argument for why sacrifice is necessary do you want to go on to a kind of flaky left that you were quite harsh on in the book where it was interesting how you said countries like russia countries like canada. there is only operate your lawns of feeling you know things should be warmer in these countries and therefore their environmental records of not being good whereas

a country like china which will be quickly impacted by the effects of climate change have got more to grips with it i am not sure does that work with india so well because india doesn't seem to be doing things on climate change nearly as fast as the communist party of china no i mean well the indian state is of course a lot weaker it doesn't have these despite moody's efforts these kind of authoritarian powers but in relation to india's. average income it is actually doing a fair amount though interestingly enough this is very closely related to energy security as in china too by the way worries about imported oil and gas of course but the really big question is what they'll do about coal you know the scientists the experts are shouting at us that we don't have much time if we're going to keep this within safe limits so we really have to think about how we can mobilize enough people and i mean let's face it almost every time western electorates have been

faced with a clear choice of making a sacrifice in terms of higher fuel prices carbon taxes they've said no a majority of got to find a way of persuading enough of them to say yes because you you are an admirer of extinction rebellion of greater thunb are going to those civil disobedience groups or they should tell you they're on the extremist metropolitan police that you are advocating in this book but do you think of that but changing this work is from the military industrial complex tell me about the surveys you've compiled really from very the one would think of as the most hawkish elements of the military industrial complex you have identified exactly what greater sumburgh an extinction rebellion of you know what i mean in all the militaries by now i'm not so sure about iraq. but certainly western militaries i know and the chinese and the indian by the way there are leading figures who really recognise climate change as

a dire threat to the national security and even potentially the national existence of their countries but the problem as i say in the book is that they've they've sometimes stated this as a priority but they haven't really prioritized because the weapons companies are saying don't spend it on that well that is very much part of it but it is also you know that the inherited attitude you say russia is the enemy what russia does in ukraine is by definition a threat to the world and national security here at home in london for us yes exactly i mean i'm not defending everything but russia i mean you're saying it is if it's so obvious but i mean we have been repeatedly told that obviously the war in iraq afghanistan you itemized the costs of these things 8000000000 in iraq 21000000000 afghanistan 6000000000 on aircraft carriers 31000000000 maybe on the nuclear these are above the national security you're saying basically that money

needs to go on real the national security much of it for every i'm not advocating unilateral complete unilateral disarmament for god's sake but i think we've got our priorities seriously wrong and i think even you know a lot of the people who have talked quite firmly about this i mean as they say in america they've talked the talk but they haven't walked the walk you advocate the green new deal bernie sanders a deal and a well not not see or at least not how it's presented because if you've read the the resolution presented to congress i mean that was absolutely packed with identity politics and labor the climate change the climate change that yes i mean because it's very important to sell this as also about technological progress and economic growth and no. you know to to try to dispel this right wing line that this is all about destroying the economy and destroying capitalism but also because of the point about sacrifice you know people having to make sacrifices

will for that you've got to give people an idea that to some extent these sacrifices are being shared you know by the rich as well as the ordinary citizens i mean the disastrous thing from this point of view is to do what micron did his fuel tax was completely correct in my view but to combine this with ostentatious cuts in corporate tax and no at least no strong invisible attempt to go after you know tax evasion and so forth that is politically stupid when it you know you say the tax savings are going to be a huge early part of this huge increase in inequality but then are you just falling between 2 stools here because on the one hand you don't believe proletarian action of the kind by workers who i have to say trump needs for his reelection at the same journey if you don't won't come from them it won't necessarily come from the demonstrations is it in the elite vision of history and the military going to come

down on it and save us all well you know quite a lot of the book is about the genesis of the welfare state in europe going back to bismarck not exactly a communist and especially of course looking at it in britain and i think what you see coming together is an elite project backed by intelligent parts of business by the way saying look if we don't provide this for the working class is we going to face a communist revolution which will destroy our whole systems. of interest if you will military establishments who knew damn well from we certainly did after 917 in russia putting rifles in the hands of very discontented proletarians is not why is you know for a government but then of course this combined with the movement from below. the socialist party social democratic party labor party trades unions so i think you've got to you've got to have all of these things because i think given the changes

required you know there are going to have to be a lot of pieces coming together to make this work of course you do magic in the book the possibility that elites will realize how important the timescale is of climate change and they'll be able to use technology not to revamp the industrial landscape to make it better for the world but revamp themselves personally and be able to bioengineer themselves to not be so affected by the impact of climate change or of course at least if they're friends of elon musk could get on the space ship and leave the planet but you know i was reading a very interesting account of somebody who was talking to a bunch of california billionaires from this point of view about the future and climate change you know the question that they were most interested in how do we ensure the loyalty of our gods about bodyguards you know ok so we've genetically engineered ourselves out of all this and we've created fortresses but god's going

to be loyal to us a key point of this book is that capitalism left to itself has never been able to save itself you knew from revolution the collapse or whatever it's always needed states to step in and not to destroy it but to regulate and shape it in wider interest ultimately even if trump wins i don't think you're a fan of trump you appeal to them all of us to remember the more 2 of the communists under new gramsci that we have to somehow be present is strictly it's a lecture about it and be optimistic about the world what do you think ultimately if you put your cards on the table it is time running out. too quickly for us to be able to cope with the graphs being given us i mean the trajectory. look bad but on the other hand i mean the predictions of what's going to happen. you know if we

don't keep this within limits are so dreadful that i don't think we have the right to despair and we have the moral rights as citizens and as educated human beings as parents you know we need to throw up our hands and say oh it's too late to do anything let it go if you feel some commitment to a country and you want to send and you have no right to despair professor around that will even thank you professor alan kohler even speaking to me that and his book climate change in the nation state the realist case is out now and that's it for the show we'll be back on monday to speak to the primatologist your redefined humanity dr jane goodall about how the destruction of the natural world could lead to the next pandemic until then wash your hands and join the underground on you tube twitter sound cloud facebook and instagram.

you cannot be both with the yeah you're right. the only comes from the great book called the negative beyond any doubt is antarctica coronavirus is everywhere from chicago lots of paper and from dreamland to easter island passion trends are the same wherever you look everyone is wearing masks and gloves and person number one is hand sanitizer it's just one endless.