he. was. it was. 6. 6. 6. 6. 6. 0 and welcome to world party in the can one of the. political speeches of the 20th century franklin roosevelt starting. as the united states at the peak of the great depression and tallying the anxious nation and the world that the only thing we have to. fear. here

nameless reason the paralyzing. the air and. the media. is the charge justified to discuss that i'm now joined by a. friend director of research development. and the harvard school of journalism media and culture counted so good to talk to you thank you very much for being with us. thank you very much for having me now karen blaming journalists or the media for creating a beehive is as old as our profession the south but. is that really an applicable charge in these days. when it wasn't i think when the big national governments and international organizations like the double your children were behind the most apocalyptic predictions about both the scale and belief thousands he'll call that 19th prediction that thankfully failed to realize but created

a lot of fear or perhaps a lot of justifies here and on the left. well i think that obviously the pandemic is an extremely scary situation for everyone around the world and it's also extremely important for you insist to have access to information about what's happening on the ground and now i think that it's obviously important to balance what is out to see reporting around a phrase scary situation with also managing the emotions audiences who already i think in many cases finding this is a dramatic times goes through. i think that sedition or media have beliefs stepped up next coverage of the pandemic under extremely challenging circumstances and this i think is particularly important because we've seen this as

a 1st kind of social media can date where this information from a variety of different sources being shared circulated and social media and that information may not be as reliable as information that audiences get from more traditional established media organizations karen lee said a moment ago and the traditional media have really stepped up to the play during this paradigm and what makes you believe that's the case can you give some examples of that i've been following this coverage for some time ever since the outbreak started in china and i think initially we did see a lot of fairly fear inducing and scary coverage in the mainstream media i think that what we're seeing now is that the condemn it has become this all consuming events that affects all of us and i think all sectors of society and when i say then media has stepped up what i mean is steps should ishall newspapers and

broadcasters and gleacher trying the best they can to provide. i think life will mation under the 6 unit challenging circumstances that is not to say that i think that the media are always getting it right. and it's also not to say that. this coverage is always particular be assuring banked a lot of it is quite scary. but i think that the media do have a say the role to play now i'm sure you teach your students as i was taught them i j school that the task of journalists is to be a government's watchdog meaning that they have to be not just critical but employing critical thinking in analyzing government policies under when it comes to the log data there is a heated debate among scientists and paul imo if you give me all a just on be advocacy of the quantum matters in downing the pandemic there are many

process and cons to it and yet if we look at the media especially the traditional media they are almost uniformly indorsing the quarantine measures as are the governments why do you think there is so middle questioning or rationale in the traditional media. so i think perhaps what we're seeing in the context of this and then it is that the reporting of science has probably become more important now than it ever has before and i think that. the media are reporting that debates around the consequences of the lock down obviously they are also very much driven in their reporting by statements made by government officials for example who changes be the ones who say the agenda and here it's obviously extremely important to just kind of position to hold the politicians

accountable for their actions. so in a sense i would say that scientists have become. stars of the show and they have become important sources well information innocent to me but it's out isn't that always the case of journalists have been strained specifically on how the court and science and absoluteness says that cases may be able to hasten their own undermines and sists well since you mentioned scientists ask open to a number of if you can we all exist in recent weeks and many of them are convinced that the current response to call that 19 is no longer within the reality of the ology it's it's it and i don't logical and political issue more than anything else the politicians need to be seen as sparing no resources to save lives which is good the problem is that they're at back to me prioritizing the lives of corbett 9000

patients. all rare other lives there is a a rise in the heart attacks when all of that from a lack of surgeries have been postponed when any victims of the spend democrat who have nothing to do recovered 99 percent of their suffering nonetheless and i know that many doctors aches. primly uncomfortable with this kind of triac because this is ultimately a tree i ask problem who does the state decide to prioritize and riyadh there's a very little discussion i'll read who in the larger society whether we are trying to you know. assign a 2nd degree a priority to your let's say heart patients as opposed to call with 9000 patients who gather their very 1st priority treatment right now. well i think obviously this is a tremendously challenging and difficult situation and i think that we do see

that reflected in the coverage and i think we've also seen a kind of shift both in terms of public debate and in terms of public opinion over time because i think that initially there was extremely white specks support for quite extreme measures now obviously does a certain level of that seek setting in the present well and also an increased concern around speak central economic consequences i think that we are seeing these reflected in the media coverage so having done a small. study of today's cut which we can see that coverage of the financial crisis that i think freezingly prominent media coverage now at this point i think we can advance as fast the potential consequences.

of the introduced matters and by as they keep piling out do you think the mainstream media the traditional media will be just as aligned with state policies on common 1000 as they are by and large the coverage is whether it is at russia or in the u.k. in the i. added states missed some rare exceptions is a more or less in favor of the of the matter is introduced by the government do you think this will remain the case as this means turn sour region they certainly will at least on the economic front. well i think that what we seeing now is a sort of classic. kind of element in terms of the media coverage where initially there was a great deal of consensus around its decision to. completely know that it's becoming politicized and becoming scrutinized also opposition politicians

around the world we are seeing more criticisms of political steps being taken and also more consideration of it on some consequences so this is something that i've looked at in different colors expenses in denmark where originally from and where the opening up of society has happened sooner than elsewhere we have seen a shift from overwhelming support for the actions of the danish prime minister to knock down early and. in a quite significant way and now we're then beginning to see a lot of questioning of the specific ways in which societies being opened up and i think we'll see this. around the world what bugs me the most is that nobody has really asked them nobody has actually clearly explained whether we need those low downs in the 1st place because. you know you would understand that from.

just people point of view definitely the government's need at some time you know to create create that extra bad capacity to build new medical facilities to train the doctors the locking people from mom the now and he you know it's a it's a very questionable decision from an if you're a logical point of view i mean it's not going to. exactly clear and that's going to prevent them from the virus because once they back charo they will encounter it. sooner or later and when they encounter as they will need that have you know back immunity that bath metabolism reach definitely do not improve when you see it at home with you know the phrase the tally and the couch it almost seems that the bigger the mall monumental decision this you were the questions being out. yeah i mean it's subtle it's really really interesting and one trace the density moment of media coverage and because we simply never faced

a crisis up this kind with in the light most people around the world and so i think that from the beginning there's been a sense oh you know oh well it wasn't that just hit us and what are we going to do about it we don't know what we're going to do about it the only thing that we know works in this situation is a form of ornstein well we actually don't know that for a fact. it's still hardly debated by i think we all are just wired there for a long long down to really decrease lethality. from this virus and i'm sure you're hearing about the example of sweden which decided a gas introducing a quarantine precisely for those reasons that they are not sure that they were in thousands work. in any case those are very top ethical dilemmas very hard choices let's take a surety rask rundown for now but we'll be back in just

a few moments stay tuned. so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have it's crazy confrontation let it be an arms race is on us and scary dramatic development is only really i'm going to resist i don't see how that strategy will be successful ready to kill or die in time to sit down and tague. thanks to. the gang banging. her

100. 200 welcome back to worlds apart carol and you're a good friend director of research development and environment and the cardiff school of journalism and media at caltech cat care and just make sure to break the suggested. corona virus outbreak is defo our break of its kind to take place in the hybrid media environment where traditional media craigslist with social media and i'm not sure i agree with your dad because i covered wars and that libya and in syria and not only the media environment was very much alike but also bill lines of covers the kind of stories journalists were filing were very similar i mean in a war zone there are 2 main kinds of stories the front lines and the victims and

the emotional personal stories and i see the same thing with the coverage of corporate 19 year how they they hospitals and the doctors and victims of this pandemic don't you think that there is something today that it's not only the politicians but also the journalists who are prone to cheating this pandemic flu or a paradigm like. well i think that we do see metaphors of war being used being widely in terms of talking about the coronavirus so it's like a sort of scary invisible enemy that comes to attack us and we've got frontlines in the hospitals and care homes where the doctors and nurses are at the equivalents of soldiers so in some ways you can see a lot of parallels in terms of looking at the condemn it hasn't were so it's a metaphor that's not without its problems but i guess is also they. may

tend to people made a point terms this idea that all the citizens of a country have to work together to defeat this invisible enemy and i think that's a kind of political underpinnings of don't buy expensive use of that metaphor you know what you call it political i call it a wartime propaganda because. just as you cannot see and appreciate the damage the full damage of the war and the frontlines in the same extend emergency wards are not the only snapshots of the pandemic and as i mentioned before the lockdown has its own victims there are people who have. other health conditions there people who lost their livelihoods there are people whose mental how who was compromised children are suffering there is a rise in domestic airlines around the world and there are many many other

consequences don't you think that it is perhaps manipulative or increased distorting to patrol eastern demick primarily from the hospitals and government briefings well i think that 11 of the one of the issues here is obviously you don't where this using medical staff. as the mean we're. heroes in this situation and in a sense that is important because it's accurate that they're facing great risks and dangers but i have to say time is also true that we are seeing and not about the people who put themselves in harm's way whether it's people who are in supermarkets or who drive buses or create our rubbish there are also many ordinary people who. i think to integrate the consequences of the condemning so milly

if we reduce it to. china the case out of hospital warts now we're obviously failing to see the bigger picture the message consequences of this and then it is heading across the whole of society and around the whole wilks now in your book and multiple media and politics meeting i highly recommend to all our viewers it's a very interesting read you make an important distinction between an emotion and immediate emotion but the latter being far more deliberate calculated and constructed and when it comes to the comment 19 outbreak or any other large scale event journalist always have a wide wide 2 ways in which emotion to transmit which emotion to put forth reaching out and to communicate to their audience and which perhaps to downplay what do you see as the dominant sentiments are they spend democrat you

already mentioned the gratitude the very genuine and sure gratitude that really feel towards the doctors and other product line workers spread or any other emotions that are prevalent in the coverage of this pandemic what i see in the media coverage is that fear is actually the dominant emotion now and that's not all that surprising in a sense because me. dealing with this unknown and scary disease and then. this hand and a series of they find me consequences from all of us but what's interesting to sync about is a next steps here like other emotions can be just as contagious as the disease itself and when we see something scary and when we speak about scary things we can also be sharing and spending that fear in relation to other people

while we are on the subject of p.r. let me play the devil's advocate for a while because i heard a number of doctors and public officials sensually the jazz that people need to be saved from the south the most the fact you wait you can do that under the pressure of circumstances is their fear because if you scare them enough with the footage of emergency wards are the footage of the savage trees or the morris perhaps they will think twice about taking their family out. for a barbecue and that's not totally mord of common sense because you know their courage is a really struggling right now i don't want to minimize the the scale of the challenge that they're facing and i think we need to give them credit for what they're doing but do you think the use of fear is justified as a scare tactic as a social control tactic when it's for people's own sake. i

think that we have seen an emphasis on fearing the coverage but also in terms. of how governments have communicated and. because like you say. here in a sense this and helpful emotion in terms of making people change their behavior so it is important for politicians to communicate that this is a dangerous disease. and that therefore it's important in the interests of the collective good for people to stay inside stay at home and sue obey social distancing guidelines and then at the same time i think that it's important to balance the communication of scaredy message just with a concern for the mental health and well being of the people who are actually consuming that media consent care and i think we would both agree that the media

organizations have a long curated why the emotions out of what information that our audiences are exposed to but i think it has never been. so open now speaking about the fact that both google and you tube both prioritize the world health organization as diesel or isn't called at 19 even though the rapid taishan of those who are going to zation is quite questionable in medical circles it's in vice on how to proceed with regards to this pandemic has been pretty inconsistent and there are many legitimate crashes about you know w h o's professionalism in these circumstances i mean we're not public health experts so let's not talk about w.h.y. what i want to ask you about is how do you feel about the big tax companies not already needing the debate but actually setting the. crimes of it and pointing to

who is a reliable source on this issue and who is not. why i would slightly take issue with your description of the w.h.o. i mean i think that this is been a bait challenging crisis for your is a shooter handle and they haven't always done this in a. manner that any missteps and only way but nonetheless i think that they can be you didn't you consider every libel and authoritative source on this subject and i think that social media organizations. have tried to make some a difficult decisions in the face of. this one starts. in x. through misleading information that's been circulated and also based conspiracy theories so now i think beck's and in in the u.k. for example if you look sweeter twitter will take you to the department of health

and social care websites and that is simply because potentially damaging misinformation circulating both in misinformation which is sort of. downright dangerous so says someone who comes from so i suspect donald trump suggesting that people shouldn't take themselves with disinfectant speaking about misinformation here is another example from the united states just a few weeks ago you tear you down a briefing by certified california doctors questioning be need who are strict law down majerus where bigger is at hand i have to add media and math several 1000000 views and i think you must iran having named that these all happened just a few days before a kalak war and yeah relax its restrictions and just as the dog. triss advocate

it's only really ok with you to have. not only being a platform for having those debates but actually deciding being the ultimate judge of who gets to participate in those debates and what those debates should they arrive at what conclusions should they should arrive at. i mean it is a really interesting sample that you mason and it highlights the fact that this endemic. represents a kind of moment where we move from thinking about social media organizations and underlying educators as just being websites and on to being actual news providers and the news providers entails responsibility for making judgments about what information is true and what information is false and that is difficult set of in from decisions to make and sometimes these organizations will

get that wrong and so for me if i had made a fundamental shift in terms of the use of these huge the 9 players and that's a debate partnership precisely because so many people get their information from you tube from twitter from other social media facebook and so on and so if they says the question about whether they. can be responsible for the contents on a site and how they manage that responsibility for their care and how can we as media are going to as ations approaches this task in a responsible way when you're dealing with so many out unknowns i mean i think when you deal with a normal virus that and based reporting is possible i mean there hasn't been enough time to establish anything back it takes years to do that and bastardry i dealing

with the scientific projections and speculations we also could be wrong and we have the you that a number of terms that are out of this pandemic most national health institutions that predictions read through and to be exaggerated i wonder if the spin damage will who are so. journalists to reconsider the basic charters of that trade what are facts what are awkward if forces and why yeah i mean i think you do bring up an important point in terms of these kinds of questions. because 1st of all this is an unknown disease and it's one where therefore we don't have a lot mr decided city information to go on and so it's certainly places journalists in a situation where they have to assess their belated see our claims made in scientific debates and the scientific debate on result and also incredibly important so i

think it's such a challenging moment but i think it also highlights the actual importance are relying on verifiable information as much as you can blind the use of authoritative sources peer reviewed research. i think that we don't know yet what the right way is to deal with these issues and we also don't know what the right way is to be quite and issues about what we do know is of journalism should focus on actually reporting what the facts show us this much is that's possible carol we have to leave it there is going to great talking to you thank you very much quiet sharing your art in pride thank you for having me i'm thank you for watching hulk is here again next week on the world the part.

i i. you cannot be both with the yeah you know what. the world is driven by dreamers shaped by phone person those with.

no dairy thinks. we dare to ask. the only country that can be labeled covert negative beyond any doubt is antarctica coronavirus is everywhere from chicago that's a cape and from greenland to easter island fashion trends are the same wherever you look everyone is wearing masks and gloves and person number one is hand sanitizer it's just one endless day behind closed doors but people keep working behind these closed doors the best they can during the pandemic this film is about the people whose job it is to observe and film is about a colleague.