only part of. the 20th century. the united states great depression and telling the. world that the only.

reason the paralyzing. the air and. the media. is the charge just. that i'm now joined by a. harvard school of journalism and culture counted so good to talk to you thank you very much for being with us. thank you very much for having me now karen blaming journalists or the media for creating a beehive is as old as our profession itself but. is that really an applicable charge in these days. when it wasn't i think when the big national governments and international organizations like the double your children were behind the most apocalyptic predictions about both the scale and belief thousands he'll call that

19th prediction that thankfully failed to realize but created a lot of fear or perhaps a lot of justifies here and on the left. well i think that obviously the pandemic is an extremely scary situation for everyone around the world and it's also extremely important for you insist to have access to information about what's happening on the ground and now i think that it's obviously important to balance what is obvious the reporting around a phrase scary situation with also managing the emotions audiences who are already i think in many cases finding this a baby from medics times goes through. i think that she dish no media have beliefs stepped up next coverage of the pandemic under extremely challenging circumstances and this i think is particularly important because we've seen this as

a 1st kind of social media can date where this information from a variety of different sources being shared circulated and social media access and that information may not be as reliable as information that audiences get from more traditional established media organizations karen lee said a moment ago and the traditional media have really stepped up to the play during this paradigm and what makes you believe that's the case can you give some examples of that i've been following this coverage for some time ever since the outbreak started in china and i think initially we did see a lot of fairly fear inducing and scary coverage in the mainstream media i think that what we're seeing now is that the condemn it has become this all consuming in banks that affects all of us and i think all sectors of society and when i say then

media has stepped up what i mean is sets should ishall newspapers and broadcasters gleacher trying the best they can to provide. the likely information under the 6 unit challenging circumstances that is not to say that i think that the media are always getting it right. and it's also not to say that. this coverage is always particular be assuring banked a lot of it is quite scary. but i think that the media do have a say the role to play now i'm sure you teach your students as i was taught them i j school that the task of journalists is to be a government's watchdog meaning that they have to be not just critical but employing critical thinking in analyzing government policies and when it comes to the log data there is a heated debate among scientists appall imo if you give me all a just on the advocacy of the quarantine measures in downing the pandemic there are

many process and cons to it and yet if we look at the media especially the traditional media they are almost uniformly indorsing the quarantine measures as are the governments why do you think there is so middle questioning of the rationale in the traditional media. so i think that what we're seeing in the context of this and to make is that the reporting of science has probably become more important now than it ever has before i think that . the media are reporting the debates around the consequences of the lock down obviously they are also very much driven in their reporting by statements made by government officials for example who changes be the ones who say the agenda

and here it's obviously extremely important to just find a position to hold the politicians accountable for their actions. so in a sense i would say that scientists have become. stars of the show and they have become important sources well information in his ascent to me but it's out isn't that always the case of journalists have been strained specifically on how the court and science in absolute s.s. their cases may be able to base their own undermines and sists well since you mentioned scientists as spoken to a number of if you can we all are just in recent weeks and many of them are convinced that the current response to call that 19 is no longer within the reality of the ology it's it's it and i don't logical and political issue more than anything else the politicians need to be seen as sparing no resources to save lives which is good the problem is that they're back to me prioritizing the lives of

corbett 9000 patients. all rare other lives there is a a rise in the heart attacks when all of that from a lot of surgeries have been postponed when many victims of the spend democrat who have nothing to do recovered 90 percent of their suffering nonetheless and i know that many doctors aches. primly uncomfortable with a sick kind of tree asking because this is ultimately a tree i ask problem who does this they decide to prioritize and riyadh there's a very little discussion i read who in the larger society whether we are trying to you know. assign a 2nd degree a priority let's say heart patients as opposed to call with 9000 patients who gather their very 1st priority treatment right now. well i think obviously this is a tremendously challenging and difficult situation and i think that we do see

that reflected in the coverage and i think we've also seen a kind of shift both in terms of public debate and in terms of public opinion over time because i think that initially there was extremely widespread support for quite extreme measures now obviously does a certain level of that seek setting in the press well and also an increased concern around central economic consequences i think that we are seeing these reflected in the media coverage so having done a small. study of today's cut which we can see that coverage of the financial crisis that i think freezingly prominent media coverage now at this point i think we can have a brand as fast the potential consequences. of the

introduced measures and by as they keep piling out ethan will be mainstream media the traditional media will be just as aligned with state policies on common 1000 as they are by and large the coverage is whether it is that russia or in the you can be a. i did say to some rare exceptions is a more or less even if they were all the odd imaginaries introduced by the government do you think this will remain the case as this means turn sour region they certainly will at least on the economic front. well i think that what we seeing now is a sort of classic. kind of element in terms of the media coverage where initially there was a great deal of consensus around its decision to. completely know

that it's becoming politicized and becoming scrutinized also by opposition politicians around the world we are seeing more criticisms of political steps being taken and also more consideration of it on some consequences so this is something that i've looked at in different colors expenses in denmark where originally from and where the opening up of society has happened a bit sooner than elsewhere we have seen a shift from overwhelming support so the actions of the danish prime minister to duck down really end up. in a quite significant way and now we're then beginning to see a lot of questioning of the specific ways in which science is being opened up and i think we'll see this. around the world what bugs me the most is that nobody has really asked and nobody has actually clearly explained whether we need those low downs in the 1st 4 days because. you know you would understand that from.

just equal point of view definitely the governments need at some time you know to create craved that extra bad capacity to build new medical facilities to train the doctors but locking people up from on the now and you know it's a it's a very questionable decision from an if you're a logical point of view i mean it's not good. exactly clear and that's going to prevent them from the virus because once they back sure are they will encounter it . sooner or later and when they encounter as they will need that have you know back immunity that bath metabolism reach definitely do not improve when you sit at home with you know the fridge the tally and the couch it almost seems that the bigger the mall monumental decision this you were the questions being asked. yeah i mean i said well it's really really interesting and one president at the moment of media

coverage an up to date because we suiting never faced a crisis up this kind within the lifetime most people around the world and so i think that from the beginning there's been a sense so you know oh well it wasn't that just hit us and what are we going to do about it we don't know what we're going to do about it the only thing that we know works in this situation is a form of ornstein well we actually don't know that for a fact. it's still hardly debated by i think we all are just wired there for a long long down to really decrease lethality. from this virus and i'm sure you're hearing about the example of sweden which decided against introducing a quarantine precisely for those reasons that they are not sure that that work. in any case those are very top ethical dilemmas for very hard choices let's take

a surety rask run down for now but we'll be back in just a few moments if they. are. dead so descriptions sound appetising even for the owners so how to choose dispatch food industry is telling us what to feed our pets is really more based on what they want to sell us than was necessarily good for the pet turns out excellent may not be as healthy as people believe we have animals that have you know diabetes in our straightest. he had disorders the allergies we are actually creating these problems

it's a huge epidemic of problems and i believe can be linked to very simple problems. and some dog owners tell heartbreaking stories about their pets last treats the larger corporations are not very interested in proving or disproving the value of their food because they're already making it to $1000000000.00 on it and there's no reason to do that research. welcome back to worlds apart with care and your going from director of research development and environment and the car to school of journalism and media culture

cat care and just me for the great he suggested. this corona virus outbreak is a tourist outbreak of its kind to take place in the hybrid media environment where traditional media craigslist with social media and i'm not sure i agree with your dad because i covered wars and libya and in syria and not only been media environment that was very much alike but also built lines of covers the kind of stories journalists were filing were very similar i mean in a war zone there are 2 main kinds of stories the front lines and the victims and their emotional personal stories and i see the same thing with the coverage of corporate 19 year how they they hospitals and the doctors and victims of this and dominick don't you think that there is something today that it's not only the politicians but also the journalists who are approaching this damage who

a paradigm of akong like. well i think that we do see metaphors of or being used a widely in terms of talking about the coronavirus so it's like a sort of scary invisible enemy that comes to attack us and we've got frontlines in the hospitals and care homes where the doctors and nurses are at the equivalent so so just so in some ways you can see a lot of parallels in terms of looking at the condemn it hasn't were so it's a metaphor that's not without its problems. but i guess is also they. may tend to pull made a point terms this idea that all the citizens of a country have to work together to defeat this invisible enemy and i think that's the kind of political underpinnings of don't buy states use that metaphor well you

call it political i call it wartime propaganda because. just as you cannot see and appreciate the damage the full damage of the war and the frontlines in the same extend emergency wards are not the only snapshots of the pandemic and as i mentioned before the lockdown has its own victims there are people who have. other health conditions there people who lost their livelihoods there are people whose mental how who was compromised children are suffering there is a rise in domestic airlines around the world and there are many many other consequences don't you think that it is perhaps manipulative or increased distorting cupra trade this been demick primarily from the hospitals and government briefings. well i think that 11 of the one of the issues here is obviously you don't we're assisting medical staff. as the main war heroes in this

situation and in a sense that is important because it's accurate that they're facing great risks and dangers but i have to say time is also true that we are seeing and not about the people who put themselves in harm's way whether it's people who are in supermarkets or who drive buses or create our rubbish there are also many ordinary people who. are affected by the indirect consequences of the condemning so milly if we use it to. a trial of the case out in hospital or it's you know we're obviously failing to see the bigger picture the message consequences of this and then it is heading across the whole of society and around the whole wilks now in your book and multiple media and politics meeting i highly recommend to all our

viewers it's a very interesting read you make an important distinction between an emotion and immediate emotion but the latter being far more deliberate calculated and constructed and when it comes to the comment 19 outbreak or any other large scale event journalist always have a wide wide choice in which emotion to transmit which emotion to put forth reaching or to communicate to their audience and which perhaps to downplay what do you see as the dominant some terms are they spend democrat you already mentioned the gratitude the very genuine and sure gratitude that really feel towards the doctors and other product line workers spread or any other emotions that are probably. and in the coverage of this pandemic what i see in the media coverage was that fear is actually the dominant emotion now and that's not on us

freising in a sense because we're dealing with this unknown and scary disease and then condemning yourself as tents and a series of a frightening consequences for all of us but what's interesting to sink about is a next steps fear like other emotions can be just as contagious as the disease itself and when we see something scary and when we speak about scary things we can also be in spreading that fear in relation to other people while we are on the subject of p.r. let me play the devil's advocate for a while because i heard a number of doctors and public officials sensually the jazz that people need to be saved from themselves the most the fact you wait you can do that under the pressure of circumstances is there a fear because if you scare them enough with the footage of emergency wards are the

footage of the sama trees or the morris perhaps they will think twice about taking their family out. for a barbecue and that's not totally mord of common sense because you know their courage is a really struggling right now i don't want to minimize the the scale of the challenge that they're facing and i think we need to give them credit for what they're doing but do you think the use of fear is justified as a scare tactic as a social control tactic when it's for people's own sake. i think that we have seen an emphasis on fearing the coverage but also in terms. of how governments have communicated and. because like you say. here in a sense this helpful emotion in terms of making people change their

behavior so it is important for politicians to communicate that this is a dangerous disease. and that therefore it's important in the interests of the collective good for people to stay inside stay at home and sue up a social distancing. and then at the same time i think that it's important to balance the communication scaredy message just with a concern for the mental health and well being of the people who are actually consuming that media consent care and i think we would both agree that the media organizations have a long curated why the emotions and what information that our audiences are exposed to but i think it has never been. so open now speaking about the fact that both google and you tube both prioritize the world health organization as diesel or

isn't called at 19 even though the rapid taishan of those who are going to zation is quite questionable in medical circles it's in vice on how to proceed with regards to this pandemic has been pretty inconsistent and there are many legitimate crashes about you know w h o's professionalism in these circumstances i mean we're not public health experts so let's not talk about w.h.y. what i want to ask you about is how do you feel about the big tax companies not already needing the debate but actually setting the. crimes of it and pointing to who is a reliable source on this issue and who is not. why i would slightly take issue with your description of the w.h.o. i mean i think that this is spin of a challenging crisis for your is a shooter handle and they haven't always done this in a. manner that any missteps and i don't waver none the less i think that they can

be you didn't you consider every libel and authoritative source on this subject and i think social media organizations. have tried to make some make difficult decisions in the face of. this month's not. in x. through misleading information that's been circulated and also base conspiracy theories so. i think beck's and in in the u.k. for example if you look at twitter twitter will take you to the department of health and social care websites and that is simply because potentially damaging misinformation circulating both in misinformation which is sort of. downright dangerous so says someone who comes from so i suspect donald trump suggesting that people shouldn't take themselves with disinfectant speaking about

misinformation here is another example from the united states just a few weeks ago you tear you down a briefing by certified california doctors questioning be need who are strict law down majerus where bigger is at hand i have to add media and math several 1000000 views and i think the most i wrong having named that these all happened just a few days before a california relaxed its restrictions and just as the dog. terrace advocated are you really ok with. not only being a platform for having those debates but actually deciding being the ultimate judge of who gets to pretty stupid in those debates and what those the basis for their right bad what conclusions they should arrive at i mean it's

a really interesting sample that you mason and it highlights the fact that this endemic now represents a kind of moment where we move from thinking about social media organizations and underlying educators as just being websites and on to being actual news providers and the news providers entails responsibility for making judgments about what information is true and what information is false and that is difficult set of into decisions to make and sometimes these are his ations will get that wrong and so for me if i had made a fundamental shift in terms of the use of these huge on 9 players and that's it of a partnership precisely because so many people get their information from you tube from twitter or from other social media facebook and so on and so if they says the

question about whether they. can be responsible for the contents that's on a site and how they manage that responsibility for care and how can we as media are going to as ations approaches this task in a responsible way when you're dealing with so many unknowns i mean even when you deal with a normal virus that and based reporting is hindering possible i mean there haven't been and not trying to establish anything back it takes years to do that and the past me i dealing with. scientific projections and speculations reached also could be wrong and we have seen that a number of trends throughout this but dammit most national health institutions that predictions read proven to be exaggerated i wonder if this pandemic will force . journalists to reconsider the basic charters of that trade what are

facts what are awkward if forces and why yeah i mean i think you do bring up an important point in terms of these kinds of questions. because 1st of all this is an unknown disease and it's one where therefore we don't have a lot misstep decided city information to go on and so it's certainly places journalists in a situation where they have to assess their belated see are claims made in scientific debates and the scientific debate on result and also incredibly important so i think it's so they challenging moment but i think it also highlights the actual importance are relying on verifiable information as much as you can blind the use of authoritative sources peer reviewed research. i think that we don't know yet what the right way is to deal with these issues and

we also don't know what the right way is to be quite on issues about what we do know is a journalism should focus on actually reporting what defects show us this much as that's possible carol we have to leave it there is going to great talking to you thank you very much part of sharing your art in pride thank you for having me i'm thank you for watching hulk is here again next week on well the part. i i.

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