patients doctors manufacturers all the governments. hello and welcome across time for all things considered i'm peter lavelle we're told we're the new cold war with china it is not coherently explain to us why even worse where is the strategy and there isn't one also the sad death of arms control . to discuss this and more i'm joined by my guest to me bob in moscow he is

a political analyst and editor at interest me internet media project and in london we crossed alexander material he is a writer on legal affairs as well as editor in chief of the direct com gentleman cross up rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i was appreciate it ok let's 1st go to alexander mackerras in london i suppose it's been long coming the murmurings have been out there but it is taking this pandemic for an all out at least media arms into china. and of course it's also played into the election cycle in the united states and i mean literally looking at the latest the media and their view of all of this on one hand i'm not completely surprised because while somebody said blame for this pandemic which of course is the subject for many other programs however in looking at the criticism of people there with low octane thinking in my. first and foremost my campaign. your

secretary of state which international intelligence agency you do not agree with is assess and begin with. what i find really remarkable or a remarkable opening on how you want to approach this what is the strategy because i don't see what go ahead and i think there is there is no strategy what has happened is exactly as you say the spinners on to bali and under the surface of the americans all that 62 wars charlie now which has been building up through the very long time china has become increasingly rich has become increasingly powerful economy by many measures has now supastar to the united states the 1st time that's happened to the united states since the 870 s. when apes across britain is becoming head of the united states and there is a areas of technology and his political influence has been growing so it's not surprising that this is creating problems for people in the united states

especially given the overall reigning sense of importance the united states gives syria it sells so it's also tries and it is being bubbling up for a long long time on this sort of ceding of animus or hostility towards china has but what has happened is that when this pandemic all of this is 1st so this this in an extraordinary hangry any temperate way and you see the media the political establishment they're all for you know shouting suddenly at china but they have no real plan they have they sort of militarized their approaches had sat talking wildly about cutting economic lakes but they're not really coming up with anything that remotely constitutes a plaid possibly because a plan is not to be found exactly you know david me. we have all this and many of

our viewers to it isn't this the reemergence of china because that's how they define and it's not been you know be a rising power it's the re emerging china after 150 years of humiliation primarily at the hands of the west including russia. and now just when they get up to the top of their game suddenly the only person the united states that have made a lot of money investing in china a lot of money they brought all the jobs there china didn't steal one job from the united states the jobs were taken away from the united states and factories were shuttered but it is you know how exactly curious is already alluded to is that we talk there's even talk of a military response it seems to me that this is a 20th century mindset maybe even a 19th century mindset because the real front tier of competition is research and development and that is one area that china has pushed very hard for and that is giving them the cutting edge when you talk military you're speaking from weakness

that's my opinion because it shows you don't have a strategy china is already been surrounded by american bases it is already being. being contained in many ways particularly in a military way so i think that the tool box is empty or are they just don't know how to solve their own temper tantrum about what is going on particularly when the economic situation primarily in the united states is very unclear as the pandemic abates go ahead. well you're right that if your minds are normal range of a century or the 19th century it means reminds more than darkest ages or the way jack's entry of course what happens is basically it was accusing biden or being a cheney's agent and by then is accused of drawing board being a russian agent doesn't it remind your something doesn't remind you or the warst year thought the story to union in the soviet union at least you know under study

and there was just one group that was demonized at the time now we have 2 groups demonised at the time you know in the united states and what made me a laugh especially at michael r. with tears in my eyes was basically an article you know that when dick madison buy an apple when sure all that their wallet is all off in the trunk and she wants the world to be serious about trumps all she wants your card to basically. if you want your real current economic ties to china well that would be real lunacy because what we are now is rhetorical willesee and their real current economic ties with china would be a real hoot but we know how that works sure you can will need external months you have this paranoia you know why that is a chinese agent trump is a russian agent and then you have a very bad quansah grants in the case of russia this is down the ranks arms control

in the case of china is there no international trade ok maybe you know alex it is but this is a good movie theater isn't it i mean cutting ties with china i mean anyone that has 2 brain cells to rub together knows you can't do that decoupling is not really an option i mean if that is going to be the option if there is some kind of united front behind it which i hardly can see the bad ever happening after 40 years of a couple linked. you know it would be the end of the reaction there too because here is that this is a good book eater because it's talking about something that is a realist you cannot cut these ties because international trade would collapse more than it has already and and that again this kind of defaults to a military option which of course is ridiculous on its face i mean what are they going to do building the u.s.

going to do build more aircraft carriers you know how easy this is the same berman thinks $100000.00 missile and you can take out a multibillion dollar aircraft carrier again where is the thinking here or as i think we've probably all agreed there isn't much thinking here this is just a kneejerk response it's not just a kneejerk response an unrealistic it is fantastic and he's dangerous it is a fantastic idea that you can count all china from the world economy china is a set by many metrics now the biggest the biggest industrial power is the world's biggest but trading power. good the idea that you can simply cut all that all around the world economy steam all has it as you know as if that could just be done it is just as i said completely childish is it again coming back to what you said a proper 20th century it's the mindset of the 1960 s.

when the soviet union did operate we need certain economic world and the united states operate any sound economic well and there was very little overlap between zax times yes you could say you could draw up the cons of various and you could work on all those kind of lines with china is that he's impossible and even that contemplates the other direction of a arms race with china building at carriers child. thank you can just to base now the united states has a bill because shipbuilding industries in the united states don't get it what it was thought is that they must be clear what how did they get how did the u.s. and china find themselves in a situation that the chinese some how make the united states destroy its own industrial base for 6 to do so i mean of course it has been this rhetorical we could keep going at it and i think what happened was back in the $98790.00 s.

american companies decided that it would make much more sense for their profits of late to turn their factories in china where costs production costs went. and to close them in the united states when they were much higher and of course that was at an american decision it was not ultimately a chinese one the chinese could not take america's industrial base from the united states it needed americans to make that decision and i can very well remember back in the 1990 s. all kinds of people many of the same people were talking now about china vetoed stating america's ideas probably race they were they were praying about it they were saying you know we don't really need to think you charge there is a competitor because we run mostly this economy because most of self interest there are american there american homes so of course that has proved completely wrong in

many ways because of course the chinese demand that their every color meet in their own fashion but it's ridiculous to blame the chinese for america's mistakes but the mckinsey view of the world here and now everybody likes these things here but you know they're relatively cheap because they're made in china not in the united states ok that's up to the mail it's almost finished up here. let's listen let's pose the most obvious question here in your mind is china a threat to the united states you know what i used the word threat you can define the word or however you wish him. well china is lot of threat to the united states because cheney is are acting responsibly and they invested a lot of line in you know that american security is and they have x. generationally there night that states their government that is the real threat for

the next states because i have as we have seen with these core you know the damage this state now has enormous power this power of the state in all the world now is much bigger than the power of the soviet union or its citizens i mean we have seen that the state going to. the state can isolate you from public transportation this state can shut down all small businesses for weeks sometimes months so when you say it's impossible to cut off china well unfortunately it is foreseeable and that's why it is so dangerous and that's why i do your disorder important because if if there is an economic war against china it will be it will not be a war we can american economic interest it will be i you all would get down a rope and you know it made a couple of just go in if one of you what about american consumers that's the reason why this all happened because americans who much like she stuff how the

rigorous last 15 seconds here china needs to be punished what is that range of beauty to it in your mind it sounds very colonial to me go here she can play to it she's completely can learn to answer your previous question china is no threat to the united states there are no miters frets to thank you knox states certainly not from china and china recent starting wars all over the place and well now but gentlemen we have to go to our breaking out about heart break we'll continue our discussion on some real news day with our. no no crowd. no shots. actually belch because. well it's true no 1st. points your thirst for action.

tough and finding another one of our esteemed sounds the way you go through a suit because alec itself nor the theater i. was in this way got $2.00 and so hard not to think of the mother disappeared this woman then walked up to have a power and open this door open if. this is the only thing that we do is music because everybody fights in his own way. to. the floor and you can use all the fee was out of this bill frist would be a whole movie about a lot of the payment on the. but i think is this is the funds that is accompanied.

when i was told seemed wrong. but all rolled just don't call. me the world yet to see palin just become agitated and endangered because the trail. went on to find themselves worlds apart we just on the common ground. welcome back to crossfire where all things are considered to be real about remind you we're discussing some real news. ok it was going to change gears here over the last week it's been getting

murmurings for the last couple of weeks but it's finally happen the united states is deciding to withdraw from the open skies agreement a lot of people may have not heard about this it's a very important arms control that we saw negotiated the end of the last century we can talk about i know we can talk about the new start agreement that is. to be a ballot in the beginning of next year so talk about open skies and couch it in the importance of arms control something that we're really we're losing to the detriment of the entire world overhead bin. well basically the open skies agreement was signed by russia and its western partners i think 3534 countries in general it was signed in 1902 by him didn't start off the reagan until 2002. him alone of course it would be very useful for the west because they would

basically mourning then military action in chechnya and in general of course russia is more vulnerable to open skies agreement you know because we rely on our our own territory to defend our country we don't have bases next to the united states on next door but again show a nurse or a c. in western europe so ways to clear what happened was there there are these agreements unit everyone including ukraine ukraine is against the united states even that agreement because then they won't be able to fly or where there are you know the russian. military units in the west and russia not blame game i mean we didn't really need to stress or abuse this is like what we call a confidence building measure correct absolutely you know and this is something that not all of the people understand the information that you get from these flights it is available to everyone you have to share it with all because it been seen they dream and then the camera sat sealed by inspectors here they're

controlled by inspect this in the country where you where you're making your morning for and why. so it's a quantum building met measure and the reasons which trump and they're all provided are on ludicrous you know they said that russia does not allow lives or were it's a region in cali in grad formally east prussia and all of them or with georgia well the last time the united states had this wide was march in march this year they u.s. planes and nato planes. you all were running aground morning during their miters situation there with the border with georgia will remember saakashvili attacked russian peacekeepers in 2008 and so say that you know there was a real war there but even even with this you know this problem was negotiate all this is not something that just russians see george schultz william perry former

u.s. defense secretary and sam nunn they wrote several articles arguing for the present nation or they remain and they all 3 of them said all 3 of them wrote that this problem was negotiated with russia it could be a sort. but orbit drawn by the bear are held down on destroying all of the arms control so i unfortunately you know the e.u. it says that they're against it but we know from the experience with the eye and there that the e.u. may. object in the beginning and them will reopen or and the. president broke germany in the beginning there and then there was a communique ever on the foreign ministers obey your subordinate them arrogant position all night and that i'm afraid the same story make up until that opens. you know alex and i am i buying this are very tragic but again all very predictable john bolton isn't in the white house but bolton is and remains when what is this

mantra to dismantle all arms control because. all of us are more or less the same age on this panel i mean these were all harold does as well as breakthroughs and going down the path of nonproliferation these these were milestones need these were celebrated and now as time passes and bit cold war rivalry of the 20th century is moving further and further in the past people don't understand it nonpolitical issues if it is important now as it ever was what how do you explain i think one of the recent is happening is because the united states has become increasingly up in secure about its and military position and as a result it's lashing out and one of the ways is lashing out she's going strong and mean these treaties can i say the open sky st he was 1st proposed but the united states in the 19 fifties and then the i.m.f.

treaty the respect that is based on proposals made by wrong break in the 1980 s. the a.b.m. treaty scrapped was based on proposals made by the united states in the 1960 s. so. all of these traces initially the united states. because of that saw in the united states or itself as being in rivalry with the soviet union even wanted to build confidence within the soviet union those confidence building measures to materially time bind and the basis for ending the cold war that was the. indispensable foundation that foundation is being destroyed and their full weight come moving back into a situation where international tensions are already we've already talked about the

possibility of when you cope well with china in the 1st segment of all progress this is very dangerous and is most alarming since may of all is all of this is happening and western public seems to be completely oblivious to it so well and the western legacy media writing on discussing will do it is not smart and clever enough they are exactly quite right these treaties were celebrates it and now that they scratched and it's as if nobody cares this is easy credit be dangerous it is incredibly dangerous they can it is more he needs to be dangerous in my opinion than the climate change issues that we hear so much about because. these this weight down of ons control is the kind of thing that could lead to a spiraling of international tensions as we have not seen since then and that was

the whole purpose of having them this acts as a party or a dinner if i find it really quite remarkable that the lead to arms negotiator be united states i think its buildings will lean much from her lips in the person's name correctly it is said and the last few days that they. i don't want to have an arms race but if necessary we will outspend the chinese and the russians i mean what kind of lunacy is this ok i mean here we have a globe we have a certainly a global recession maybe a depression here the debt devon's are being blown all over the place particularly in the united states and they have to achieve arms control they go and let me repeat the arms control negotiator person who wouldn't want to have arms control saying that you know we could outspend the chinese and the russians again rhetoric from the 1960 s. and 1970 s. and even in the eighty's here and let me add to that let me just add that isn't there are voices in the american administration i'm talking about and in the

nuclear test ban i mean when i read that i my job at the floor i mean what's the why i mean one of the there's a global consensus that you do that you don't do that or very rarely and then you would have to explain why and now that's being thrown absolute we've already mentioned the entire a ray of arms control. existed at the beginning of this century they're almost completely gone then you can get your head around that more testing go ahead jim. well there is some merry way of battle or behind it all the latin states are sticks to the agreement when technologically it is and i'm to just want them to stick to the remains so as alexander rightly said. you know the 1960 s. then i just days didn't have a b.m. acknowledge it and i'm a mystic nice oust your prey kept them so they suggested these a.b.m. treaty which opened war the soviet union and there let the states do or you know

this balance or fear right and they scrapped it then 2001 when it appeared new technology will protect the united states wrong markram espouse wrong russia star war has to be yes or same story now one of the reasons why the orbital skies agreement is been scrapped by the united states is because they have a new satellite technology so they don't need pleats do to control russia. they don't care about quantum since they don't care about krissy cross city so there is this is a very dangerous leuchter i only stick to the agreements that if you know what you can hear a reminder of just to me and the same story where there they say year by drum that the united states can resume nuclear testing for the 1st time since 1902. me remind you that the organ skies agreement was signed in 1902 right after the end

all the cold war. when the all the skies agreement was negotiated nor one would imagine that canadian graphics region would be an x. class that it would be surrounded by 2 qantas unfortunately all during the course though russia paul and the lithuania at that time used to a new and was still a part of the soviet union when open skies will go so these people they act. well something that is that nobody played by us with them and they completely is really got history if you forget what happened just 2 or 3 years ago you know when they say you know what business has russia during ukraine they described * * 300 at least 300 actually crawl on 100 years over history this is the same story with that open skies and how do you know grab they just forget what what what was there just do it when you're out there and you don't speak yet the man they just simply don't know because they don't take any effort in trying to make here is you know we have

one minute left here one of the day that this is an opportunity ok that is being lost we have. the west is ratcheting up tensions with china now it was an arms control regime was one thing that you know you would always be 2 sides adversaries would come together and because it was their mutual benefit this is the time to bring china in you start you know pushing ratcheting down these tensions but they're doing obviously the exact opposite go ahead and get what they need i mean this idea that you can somehow to spend the chinese and the russians both at the same time and do so on mass producing presumably incredibly dangerous weapons which will lead the way also undermine the whole concept of nuclear nonproliferation the nuclear nonproliferation treaty. the major powers who would use. you know increase you know the later after that but over time we've had to

have a gentleman here i want to meet with many thanks to my guests in london and here in moscow want to thank our viewers for watching us here at r.g.p. so you next time remember.

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