you're right. hello and welcome to crossfire where are all things are considered. cold war $2.00 targeting china is off the ground and gaining momentum some say china must pay for the pandemic well others claim is an existential security threat to the washington still others say washington can't concede we live in a multi-polar world now. cross

knocking china i'm joined by my guest tom what gives a normal he is president and c.e.o. of t w d and associates a global business an educational consulting firm based in michigan as well as a regular contributor to china u.s. focus with an interest as unbuilding high between the east and west and in singapore we cross to jim rogers he's an international investor and director of. gentlemen across the group and i think that means you can jump and he was rich all right let me go to singapore jim let me go to you 1st here we hear a lot of bluster coming out of western capitals particularly the united states and the media depending on what. side of the aisle you're on but it's all trying to spot china must pay something must be done it's always the mantra something must be done that is the age we live in. a not i look at all of it and then. you know and it's this. kneejerk reaction and of course about the old paradigms like the cold war that was. 9091 so i mean as you all is you all absorb

it here and you're a financial guy so i trust you more is there a strategy i don't trust politicians that's for sure and you know you know asia very well is this you know. cold war 2.0 against trying it is a risk rather gee did you see that you can delineate all. throughout history all over the world when things go bad politicians blame the foreigners they always blame the far as they have different skin and different languages different religion different food they smell bad food smells bad everybody loves to blame the forests and that's what's happening now china is the most prominent of the farmers and the most successful so we're blaming the foreigners i mean it is a total absurdity if you ask me we should be working together to bring prosperity to everybody but that's why i'm not

a politician i guess. that engender so many responses for me but i can't do it on this program i'm going to go to you you know jim really really very squarely i think here i mean for 1st of all the u.s. and many of its allies are not coming through this pandemic very well the show that they were unprepared and particularly in the united states and in the end this is not to attack any particular politician that's not my point here i point is is that the globalization reveals what globalization has done for the chinese to globalization and build an economy in the united states in the in the western world created financial ation be financial ization of the economy very different approaches to globalization overall one player makes stuff in exports a lot of people want and the other one will displace with funny money all the time and this is something that no one really wants to talk about in the west because it

is not to do they would benefit actually very much to their serious disadvantage. well thank you and 1st time jim thanks for not wearing a bow tie i thought i was going to be on but to bow tie actually not us and be the odd guy out clearly what we've seen is a massive change over the last 20 years i grew up right outside of when wash a nice a as a boy and i remember when china was not. much different than north korea was for us today it was a forbidden by so my mom telling me you know each year piece the chinese children are starving well i want to mail them to him because i didn't want to hear them but if you fast forward to 40 years and china has risen up as mouse said and $949.00 s. and the gate of heaven square the chinese citizens of stood up and clearly they have more people have risen up out of poverty over the last 40 years than the united states has as people so when jim talks about it as it's not

a politician i'm kind of ebb and flow and government and private and nonprofit world. blame has always been a part of americans playbook and certainly blaming people is a pointed out the difference that us that's what we need to do in my a summation is change the paradigm around and when people start pointing the finger at other people the american people have to ask how does blame help that hasn't restore there for a while and how does it help get them back to work and if you think you're just going to decouple from china and that's the end of the game i think you've got another thing coming when given the same with the decoupling is living a very important i think the understand the need jerk response i mean we saw the lightnings particularly in the medical sector in the united states wanting roughly less one thing in many ways than decoupling well there is

a decoupling going on but it's not being real reported there or in all in the media is this asian countries are really need to decouple from the united states not from china ok and that is something that is a trend that is growing before this pandemic that was going on now we will see people will look at the data comes out but you know this mantra you know we have cut ourselves off from him in the form from china when you know that is the end of . politicians knocking on of their sleeves and that's what i told him to meet but you know i don't see who want to be the titans of business are going to be leaving china any time soon because well that's when they make money ok so i mean this will end up being a 00 issue or an internal issue me united states because out there were years of. investing in the chinese market i don't see a problem and i don't see them coming back anytime soon unless you want to start now one is the news we go ahead. peter trade wars have never worked for anybody

nobody has ever want to trade world where there is t. coupling our tariffs are you any way you want to put it mr trump either doesn't know history or well he actually thinks he's smarter than history he doesn't care about history he has it in his brain and his friends around him all think that trade wars are good and that bashing the chinese i mean various people in the republican party have made it very clear dish selection is going to be run on bash in china and that's what they're of out doing they look around and say we how we're going to win this election the easy way is to i think is to bash china is it good for america no of course not we should all be trading together you know america by it's a lot from china china buys a lot from america the chinese are ahead of us in some technology but we're ahead and others we should be working together the idea that we're going to decouple and

say to the chinese we want trade with you how does that help america how does that help anybody how does that help china maybe a few more americans will get a job for a while $325000000.00 americans we're all going to have to pay much higher prices for everything so we want to start buying our shirts from illinois i don't think so they'll be more expensive than they probably won't be as good. and you would think that these jobs are coming back to the united states i mean that would be the political rhetoric but what you will see is automation and the robots back in the american factory charlie are going to say. and surgical gowns and other medical equipment kind of be in order or i'm sure i don't think the rouge plant the ford motor company that i worked my way through college in here in detroit is going to come back and there's going to be 100000 people with strong backs and not much

to thank because your jobs just tighten and not going to happen if those jobs do come back again are there coming back to automation to robots and not those $3540.00 an hour high. low skilled jobs here in the united states are exactly right but even if they're well maybe if they come back with robots yes but normally america's not a cheap place of fish and place to do business to manufacture the products will be much higher priced and they would be if they're made somewhere i mean this is economics which is going around for a 1000 years we all know that such as comparative advantage and that's the way the world works sure we can all buy expensive forwards again that breakdown for not to do that i would prefer americas do the things that you know good and let the chinese and other people do the things they're good at you know the time to be the

timing of this is quite. bizarre because here you have well we don't know all the details because we don't have all the economic data yet but i mean i think it's very very to say that the u.s. economy is in deep recession right now it's not depressed depending on i guess a great depression i think is this is clearly i am not a miracle because we don't have those numbers yet but i mean it looks like it's moving in that direction. and so we the powers that be it leaves a good part of them want to go on this you know new cold war with china when the u.s. economy is on its back you know these people have any common sense i guess that's a rhetorical i'm going to is i think it's going to go ahead and i think it's really a 6 month strategy and this is until november 3rd i think is election day strategy this is and i watched it here in michigan a very pointed out this china has always made it the bogeyman certainly one of the action time comes up and certainly in the industrial midwest here in the state of

michigan which has seen a lot of its manufacturing base and keep in mind that in this election it's really going to be a few states that are combat it is going to be a wisconsin then and michigan and pennsylvania which earlier aren't you there and so. let me assure you the bumper sticker shipped jobs to china is going to resonate a whole lot more than anybody giving economic theory or geopolitical theories about ways i mean that we should engage with china my hope is that it's only a 6 month strategy and either because the american people make a different choice and hence we have different policies on or a certain early after election there's going to have to be some sort of have it because the path we're on right now seems mutually destructive and in my estimation you know talking appear to be sure to understand that what what tom said there is not election in america in november and everything is consumed by that election

they don't care about you are me or my kids or tom's kids they care about winning that election no matter what it takes when it here why do i care to try to get that ruining the country from my kids they're already you for me they're ruining it for my kids so because it's a political issue tom they're willing to go down this the bruin is they seem to make some kind of a low point. it is. it is and it's frightening to me i mean what i would have loved to have seen is this pandemic start up and you know right after we signed the quote phase one trade deal with china which to me was more transactional than transformative but what i would've loved to a seen with real leadership is rather than plan c. small game where one country has to be down for the other one to be up imagine if rather than wave a path for a long. if she didn't thing and donald trump were destroyed let's all the world together let's find a way to address this pandemic this health care crisis in the economic tsunami that

it's on leaks imagine if we were sitting down not trying to find a 0 sum game of politics and it was i think it was tip o'neill said all politics are local and you're seeing this nationalism politics play out not only in the united states but also was she in china today because it's all very counterproductive gentlemen i'm going to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and not to mention the bridge we'll continue our discussion on the new cold war going strong states not. all no 2. no shots no. actually

just don't speak. well it's true both of us to a. point should your thirst for action. part of something is better than 100 percent of nothing and so losing money as is part of the money laundering model as a model of business model and we look at these unicorns these startups and silicon valley like the ones you man said we work. that way fair guber if we were left well maybe the model is to lose money and so who is laundering the money who is laundering the money. and i mean on the pull of our esteem i found a way to go through a suit because bandicoots old movie theater i. was in this way got to go out

so hard not to think i know how to dissipate this moment then walk up to it i want and i'm going to start and if. this is the only thing that we do is music because everybody fights in his room waiting. on. the floor you can feel the fee on this bill frist would have that you have called the ability to put the payment on the. what i think is this is the funds that is a constant. through . welcome back to cross up where all things are considered i'm here about to remind

you we're discussing china. ok when we go back to it in german singapore listed it's kind of pride in out the discussion here let live let's ask let me ask some very simple questions number one is china a military threat to the united states. not at the moment how i don't think america has enough nuclear bombs they could blow up every city in china if they had to so i doubt seriously if in 2020 china is a military threat to the u.s. . might be someday but not today we're not time that no that's one of the things that's being you know that's one of the solutions to the problem which you make is just so counterproductive in comparison and especially on the 1st off the program i mean we have you know we have the leading arms control official of the united states saying that if necessary we can we can spend them into oblivion i mean if

you think that this is just mind boggling here i mean oh i agree the united states and china are competitors they may be adversaries ok it is certainly not a of a reason if you are not contemplating military action because it seems to me that military action is at the very end of the spectrum if you feel definitely threatened but we're nowhere close to that right now but it seems that's one of the 1st positions they jump to is how can we tarry do what the chinese. now there's really been economic bombs that have been dropped and as jim pointed out this is all about a 6 month strategy for the next the next 6 months on everything about election you know remember after 911 toby keith the country music singer you know courtesy of the red white and blue well put it in your ass see american way we tend to. default to that and then that line strategy again going to war with

a 2nd heart just world economy going to war with one sex one. of the world's humanity seems absolutely ludicrous to me but it may be just enough to get enough votes to keep a particular person an hour or more here. one of the things that she and him paying doesn't have to worry about isn't what he's a president later for life. yet i want to ask you what is the threat i mean i don't know i know you you know i have to say man so i don't see a threat well i mean it this way trying to surrounded by military bases that china is surrounded by a myriad a license is that the united states is involved in that is gets very complicated could get out of control one mistake and we could have august like the borders you know and that's why i think that you know these alliances create more security

threats than the levy 8 ok but that may be a topic for another another program here but you know one of the things i find very sponsored me being a trained historian want to address this the both of you is that weird discount from it seems to me is that you know for the western domination even when gemini of the world is it is about a 500 year times 5 that we're years and and we know a lot of people fail to remember that they doing these colonizers they don't go out looking. her for the gold or silver they would have been cross about because they wanted to bring christianity to the world at the very end at the very basis that say it's a missionary messianic impetus here well to. the west is largely christian ok but that in this is still there that we must we must bring our values to others because we know better they jumped and it's such

a mind it is almost impossible to confront because it is a it has a messianic religious tenets to rip and look out the the treatment of china is in the present china must be brought to heel to the real ok i mean look this deconstruct back to language ok i mean it's very or oriental this view of the rest of the world go ahead to the middle east has experienced the last steps and that's point. well one of the things i think look at is the one thing we are quick is that you know i remember my 1st trip to china and 89 walking down a building on the bun and shanghai and seeing a map of the world from a chinese perspective because up until that point every map of the globe i saw united states was dead center of my i had to rub my eyes i bought one of those maps

to remind me that not everybody sees the world from our own perspective tremendous eyeopener for me as a young guy in his thirty's my 1st trip to china that happened or inside i would tenements where i'm so i think we need to take a broader view the world and understand some of that history that that you were talking about it or would you need every every every country does this the french did it's a spanish did you said before we were going to save the world from christianity the russians did it the russians are going to save the world from mr marx i mean nobody will know quite is a marxist anymore they all want to be rich but you know this is the way human beings have worked for thousands of years we are better than they are and they should do what we say. well i mean because you're my me baby have nucular weapons that's got the difference i'm saying you know what i'm saying this is

a lousy and i don't mind you is not understand so i'm still with jim on this one here i mean read it closer to home as americans this is this american exceptionalism that i'm talking about and even questioning that you know you're been thrown out of the church as it were ok you can't you can't say that well you actually shouldn't say it because american exceptionalism has practice now and has been practiced for decades is against the national interest of the country and various people ok for its people. and again you know when you both gentlemen are focusing on the election fair game here but when that election's over and it was endemic has been stamped out look at the records left behind and you want to start a trade war with china i mean wow what that's like here great ideas there's a use of doing. america is exceptional where the largest debtor nation in the history of the world the debts the skyrocketing every day i mean we were 2 months

ago 6 months ago our debts for copper has and the last month or 2 they've added another few trillion trillion whether it's he to the american debt yeah that's exceptionalism no way can i get for. you guys got into this situation has gotten out without a probably did you say a crisis where you want to if you want to add to it you want to have it you want the adversary the new enemy to buy your t. bills so you can. emanate ok even if they want you to buy the debt but you're the enemy ok that's an exceptional interesting situation go ahead tom you want to jump in i'm doing absolutely i mean that's the point that i was going to make is that there's not a buyer that we continue to rack up a lot of this huge me and never president trump in a master it is. getting the american people to cheat chase the next over what we should be really doing in america is looking more and addition and multiplication

as opposed to division and traction and what i mean by that is we need to begin to invest in the american people when i go to china and use we chat i don't have to touch her and say i can we chat anything and everything when i can get on a bullet train and go from beijing to shanghai which used to be at 10 or 12 or in our train trip and now i can do in a few hours china has begun to sebastopol we need to be doing is investing in education and get a structure in workforce training and retraining so that as as the kids that are now 30 years old work in a factory those jobs are not going to be there in the future and they're not going to pay a livable wage here what's wrong in until america begins to quit pointing to the other guy and begins to invest in the american people in the american economy we're going to continue to have this false choice in front and it's very sad in trouble

beginning to think jim you know going to be again we're even reading that the mainstream press where there are not a lot very many intelligent people you know that the pentagon needs more money for its you know to finish the pivot to asia you know it's always welfare for the military industrial complex but not is always pointing out here you know in this. conflict too in this sphere right now it's who's going to be best in r. and d. and that's that is this is this is what defined this adversarial conflict and now it's almost nobody in washington seems to get it ok. well unfortunately the next story is going to be you know on the internet are with with electronics yes somebody has got some troops are going to have to go and explain you know whoever wins but know that the generals fight. last war has been that happening throughout history the next story is going to be electronic and unfortunately for us as

americans china turns out something like 10 or 20 times as many engineers every year as we do in america a lot of them abaddon engineers i'm sure but some of them are very good you've heard of ali baba you've heard of by do you've heard of you know 10 cent i mean some of those engineers a good and some of them are sitting in your are just figuring out how to ruin america and here what we can add to that tom a lot of the engineers in the general produced in the united states are foreign born i just would like to point that out it's true you have a player there's a good cartoon that goes out that says americans always want to see a market strong in math and science and then they showed a picture and a picture shows american children of indian and chinese descent they're performing very well in those areas and that is exactly the the point is that china doesn't have to get it right for all of its people with 1.51.6000000000 trying to get

people they don't have to get it right for all they say get it right or some are in education is really going to be the future shouldn't an american university likely today is a future president a later. one of the message that those individuals are hearing and seeing what kind of relationships are they don't. between the most important bilateral relationship in the world today when you think about it every major world issue. it's going to intersect at the corner of beijing and washington d.c. so how our respective leaders whether it's our current leaders or future deal with these issues are going to impact china the people of the united states and for that matter all of humanity that's why the stakes are so bloody hot. let me give you the last 20 seconds here because unfortunately you know the way the u.s. is constructed is every 4 years but tom's absolutely right it's the horizon's bunch

of 20 seconds go ahead jim my daughter just came back from china every 5th grader in china spends one hour per day on coding i live in singapore we don't even do coding in singapore much less an iowa one owl per day for 10 year olds i think that is the best way to end this program because it shows the difference here and who's creating a buyable future and who is not ok i want to thank my guests in the north and singapore and i want to thank our viewers for watching us your r.t.c. next time remember.

we go to work so you straight home. mikko in. this. time we said. just at home. there's an old but i'm also the most companies you know i've been the good news is you. want to be able. to stump for cmos he told us a little even though he goes from didn't you know just to see you just put oh you little sure. someone doesn't know you see him you know you kind of these.

things they. don't look to your list. so to. speak is he. wearing a moscow has become a political statement in the us pretty good how the country's division zogby pinning due to protect him face coverings. craving pints while some business is all set to reopen soon some struggle to comply with the new post quarantine regulations images like this 1 may make you wish you were here for many more for peter as big as for many they won't be able to reopen again.