and on welcome to worlds apart in just one comment 9. has replaced geopolitics or rather has become. more engines and i'll deal with the day while be careful citizens health has reminded equal politicians carefully calibrated or even explained our policy is one of the doctor ordered now

a new unquestionable well to discuss that i'm now joined by the editor in chief in foreign affairs magazine so it's good to see you again and thank you very much for taking time to talk to us oh. you know the magazine is by the way rushing global affairs but that doesn't matter. my and my fault here you're wrong to recently including in that very magazine and that the main lesson of this pandemic is the un says steyn ability of unification the attic collapse of this neo liberal worldview that there is only one right way of organizing or running a society and yet if we look at the way the country is responded to this pandemic regard list of their political or social organization it's pretty it's very uniform i mean they pretty much doing the same thing regardless so far you know

difference and demographics difference is that health care systems isn't that a triumph or unification ramadan crucial vote for impossibilities. i think it's a very poor adults ago period you know we see the same time trying for what will ization in a way that all of us. in australia and any place in the world basically we are in exactly the same situation and we do same things or rather we are subjects of the same things and we are more united than ever because all of us are following what this happening in other countries so in this regard yes at the same time this is a. total from mentation of international landscape because pandemic is a unique kind of calamity when the only way the only possible

way to confront it is to isolate one thing to let me take these here are redundant as i heard you see him in many interviews and you say that quarantines and distancing are the only 2 ways and i agree on distancing but when it comes to quarantines this is a very dramatic statement and scientifically if not saddled and all scientists and semiology still arguing about that and i think you know one prove that it's actually not the case is the fact that we have humanity have believed to be viruses since the beginning of times and we have remember ever imposed side measures and as such as this one what do you think happened in spring of 2021 that we are ready to go to such extreme lengths virus came to all places including more distant ones.

and then mix or. no infectious diseases they never reached. just because not because of the specificity of this wire us but because of. global communication which is the. main part of our existence but we had coronaviruses before and he'll have them again and i think it's pretty clear at this point that comment 19 the facts various populations differently and then we'll tally to rate of the complications that are so scary i mean it's not covered by do that success carry but the complications to it they are very high. correlated to the state of public health preceding the damage there was a very interesting paper published and allowances and it's just that by early may the world's richest countries accounted for more than 90 percent of data from

called it 19 and some of the poorer countries seem to be far less vulnerable to the complications of the mortality rate there is much less even when you count for the testing so i think you know it's very clear that these viruses very discriminative about both individuals and how it affects countries and yet the response for this pandemic is again one size fits all and we are on the right size of the right side of history. and of course a wall of about mentality i think. we should not jump to conclusions because men especially predict that this virus will say go down so to africa to latin america so much less prosperous parceled the world. to have some kind of. a fact of stoneman but it might happen that lewinsky much

more situation there. this 1st thing 2nd saying. i'm not a specialist at all and that in the village about i guess that. the. spread of testing is very important and the more you test the higher numbers to get and certainly yes you're right of course that. healthcare systems were put in the very difficult position and that the main principle of say liberal organisation that you don't need to invest too much in how scarce because it's not rational so to say it's not that i'm sure i'll tamil in terms of. now money allocation saw that proved to be wrong we see that in them for example in eastern europe which is far from the most successful part of

european union for example that situation was and hopefully will remain better than most developed countries maybe because they had not that the advanced the medical system but that they still had remnants of mass healthcare and we see this difference especially in cases over u.k. and u.s. where this very much a liberal approach that's quite obvious and this is a very important factor you mention that we are not there. and it be demolished i spoke to one just yesterday from the yellow university and he wasn't debating. the observed case fatality ratio this is the percentage of deaths among confirmed coronavirus patients so it accounts for the testing in western countries that is not try or done in developing countries for example in france is 15.2 in

let's say pakistan the reach has also started testing it's around 2 percent and some of the indian middle epidemiologists suggest that it may be the exposure to infectious diseases that makes population immunity stronger some suggest that it's exposure to chronic amid the ball of diseases that are much more prevalent in the west that makes the motel a t. hired in any case. what troubles me is that the approach that is propagated as the responsible one is sort of based on the mentality that what worked for the west has to work for the rest of the world and that strikes me as not only very western centric but also a new way of sort of. you know i say taking this near liberal dogma at the end of the day because it's it's not necessarily that what works with the united states will work of the same way for south african countries i mean even in not only in

terms of how but also social consequences it's one thing to establish a long down in the united states but something else entirely in let's say 7. sub-saharan africa where it's not possible to begin with i think the phenomenon we should point out. universe universality of approach with current and sandwell and downs. it's not so much because of the loss of new liberalism but it's just the products all for our global communication and. in so intercourse i can understand fully the bill in the us of the different countries because no one 1st of all all of them were forced to be confronted to their own people so in the end it may have to respond

in sound way i agree with you but exacting the be the actions of neo liberalism is to act on some mystical shared values rather than conditions on the ground you know you know i don't think it's about shadwell us at all i think it's about it's about here my own governments beat to democratic up the retainer and whatever if people in your country is able are able to watch television and come patter what is happening say in the in the in the united states or in china or in south korea and see that. for some reasons a result and number send in their own country is worse. they start to blame the government not because of as above because they believe that the government didn't do its job well and i think this is the main important and the most important reason. now let me ask you about russia which has

a long history of sort of jackson positioning itself against the west me and i think russia is responding to this paradigm again pretty much the same way as other western countries despite the fact that we have a different public health system much more sort of mass and based public health system and billeted for mobilizing is mobilizing medical professionals is higher and riyadh delong downs a streak we are have the same or rather a court let's save. our people all. all like spans you know really choosing people over the economy even though that's not exactly chile that's a typical trash problem and they are choosing people over people and there are lots of reports in most grandmother cities of people dying from mum called it 90 conditions why do you think russia found the need to be so much in this common trend with everybody else. i think that russia is not that much different from the

rest of the world i think this idea that russia always. is about to go its own way and simply. invented so russia is an integral part of international trans and global trends and russian government whatever they think and certainly there are discussions there as well about how to confront. in the in a better way but to just these regards this way fulfill aspiration that any government should do every. seeing to save as many allows us possible that's not that's not possible here either so russia in this regard is very much like all the guns implicit china has the same and many on the singapore is the same so that's not about liberalism again i'm sorry but it's about

the. certainly as as a result of human development developing a human cry now to. openly prefer it can only through 4 months all work human life even if we believe that this is a little bit of slogan but it's impossible and. ok for now let's take a very short break now but we will be back to this fascinating conversation in just a few moments stay tuned.

we go to work some straight home. planet another one of i was going to come away or go for food. addicts will know to see it i. got it all through hard luck. on the other destroyed this is a plan that i want and i know from the start that. this is the only thing that we do is music. because everybody fights in his way. the employer the food out of his will for somebody that you have

given a. kind of. thank you but i think it is this is the fact that is i want to thank you thank. welcome back to worlds apart from it's going to look at the editor in chief of russia in global affairs magazine there just before the break we were talking about the global response to the call that 900000 make which in my humble opinion represents the triumph of neo liberalism though not and yours but i definitely agree with you that it may be of the last nail in the coffin of neo liberalism as a normative regime to aspire its you and you have spoken about it losing its.

appeal its more like authority and i think you go as far as to say that it has actually lost its meaning the old dichotomy between democracies and i talk racey's is no longer valid. dichotomy is no longer a value the difference of course is value. and. no doubt that different countries and different nations will have a. different system of governance but what you mention a couple of times this idea about right side of history this is this appearing hopeful that because that was for so well there are strange and stupid idea history has no sides history is a new phenomenon which includes every think it includes we saw that just see profound. decline of new liberal you universalism

years ago and of course what happened in the main and is the case with. protestant gains this universalism. coming cannot from this earth who are not from developing world but from the inside region enters in the region yes ronnie knight estates and greens united kingdom that was i think the turning point but of course if it started even before now after after this on them ik even the ideological framework will be. there will be weakened very much it does not mean that neoliberal a the this a fear of speaking of. the notion of freedom it was functional to both mere literalism and b.g.l. politics of the last 70 years and i'm very interested to know why do you think it will happen to notion of free there once to be

a relief pronk and the flow down that are supposed to be a voluntary but actually are not. yeah that's. interesting. to certain extent trying to phenomenon that we see that the line between supposedly supposedly the macwrite thickens authoritarian society this is this appearing and the last measure a switch china was harshly criticized for and now they are being applied to in the united states or in europe. and that's very paradoxical and. strange but maybe logical that all those. anti-gay utopian pictures which we remember from. george orwell and other rights us in the 1st half was meant a century and they subscribed to terran regimes and they suddenly come from

a completely different thing but at the same time it's not the forest sign of that you for remember what's happened to almost 20 years ago after 911 i mean the united states when people started to ask for more control because they wanted to feel safe and they were ready to to. get to read the part of their freedoms that was the beginning and that never stopped after that now is the next level because people are really interested to. to be safe and also in terms of their so to say their bodies their health i thing in the post called it 19 era ideological battles will be awaits not around the term freedom but the term progress because that comment 19 on some many levels is a child of globalised capitalism and i think the irony of it i'm absolutely convinced that there is scientific basis for me saying that the most damning

ethical in 1000 has is on the countries that contain and sound. to be the bearers of progress take the united states for example it spends more than any other country on public health it has one of the sickest populations in the world and that's why its mortality rate from commitment is so high it's ultimately very much linked to the metabolic diseases and i wonder how do you think this discussion about progress is going to be shaping out in the next couple of. areas and maybe day kids because it seems that the further you can try to goes in the direction of progress then nor did generated it is on a visit to a level it's almost against human evolution to go that way. so the theory on the concept of progress is a very complicated and of course there are there is

a the there is a difference between so to say public perception and i would say propaganda perception of progress and the center sick notion of. certainly a we are entering a completely new stage in how to assess. not just the progress but needs of the human kind i think we. already passed the peak of this willingness to be most global and most open. as open as possible. however we assess this virus it's my belief that they are not but the implications will be very long lasting because i think many people in the world even after this pandemic will stop to think whether they really need to travel that mosque and go that far at the same

time of course progress in terms of developments there elop in the thick knowledge is thinking that they're out on the communication i don't think it's going to be solved and so. this controller said this contradiction between the safe life and progress we'll. share pun but it will not disappear well but you know it has a very interesting implication of the notion of market economy because i mean there it's you main pillars of liberal democracy 1st like political organization and market economy and at this point of time neo liberalism and i'm still convinced then that demands the altimeter safety for the population in your twenty's human lives above everything else but it ends up undermining the very killer of market economy because i think on the 1000 essentially rendered property to write a relevant what's the point of investing into anything when the government can come

up tomorrow and tell you to close your business i mean these kind of risk it never existent before and it was created precisely because we brought the value of human life so high that it trumps all the material values reached makes the whole system in my view totally unsustainable the question is. what can possibly replace it this is a discussion about consumption because the whole level capitalism a sense quite a long while maybe there needs to into century was based on their idea of ever increasing consumption which was seen as something. basically positive yes when i had nifty areas with criticism and the knowledge and so far a left wing call logie driven party is in their united states and us the europe but it never challenge to the very idea they they just wanted to make

consumption a little bit less harmful to denature not not not well not much more now i think we will face a serious debate about the nature of global capitalism and in this regard i can expect. a new ideological know. the riots and struggles to emerge because after what was the triumphal far and near liberalism we should mention that there was a perception that after collapse of the soviet union and soviet model of communism no alternative will come again or never again but now we see that as a left socialist idea was heavily discredited by the soviet union illiberal idea was to have this credit have by 'd what's happened thus the cost of the soviet union so i think that in one way or another form we will see a revival of those say the illogical battles and you're also talking about their

rivalry between china and the united states that is going to accelerate and they call it in post call it 1000 iraq and who are all be or if they were rhetorical differences between washington and beijing then i'll read. different in terms of doing business and running the economies right running their societies maybe even though i'm not totally convinced that the difference is that huge but when it comes to doing business that pretty much sign me is twins they're fighting for a bigger pie bigger piece of the same pie than all the fighting over the recipe can the rules of the game be really change when you have the 2 main players really wanting more of the same rather than something different. to write rules of the game will. constant change the problem is that they might

disappear because. i'm really convinced that we are approaching a very severe confrontation between here and between china and united states it can be compared to the cold war only in one that mentioned. the intensity of this mutual these like but when it all the rest will be different because as you rightly pointed out there is no ideological difference between the trend and if you're like a state they operate in the same paradigm of the global capitalism unlike soviet union and united states of 40 or 50 years ago which had maybe wrong but completely different. perceptions or way of life how to live how to build society and that's why i believe that this confrontation my turn even more dangerous i mean that you're in china and united states because to certain extent ideological battle

maint the premiss confrontation eliminate more structure and that's forced parts to a lot more rates on a rules old behavior also the good now and i'm so sorry to remember my. my status in the soviet union and when we were forced to learn marxism leninism but some of those pieces are still. relevant so the millennial space about imperialism as a high stage or ethical is when he described the reasons why 1st world war erupted i think it's very it's very big a risk that confrontation between the united states and china will lead us to something play that free world war one atmosphere this is not about ideology that was a dog breed. i mean this. mentioned a couple of words and let me. bring to attention one more conflict that is the

american war for the patents from the british which was also spurred by the disagreements over money over taxes now the americans prevailed and ultimately the mantle of global leadership from the british and its strange started but i one day resigned now i'm american clash is not so much about an abstainer global had germany but about who gets to be the new. east china really an adversary to the western world rather than its natural successor its natural heir. yes exactly and i'm sure the chinese actually would prefer not to be engaged in this struggle but unfortunately the theory of international relations teaches us that as long as the heat jim has no real contenders it's

possible to more or less successfully regulate this is by the way some of the followers rises to the level to be a real would be possible to challenge their heads in that matter believe it will be struggle between them. and we don't see we don't know any exemptions from this rule . well i'm not here part of the have to leave it there and i thank you very much for your in fried thank you and thank you for watching hope to syria again next week on a world apart. of .

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