america. is. going to communicate your computer to. welcome to the party they stay here all the many other chapters and drivers and speeds today while said that young new media about how you eat grass and loving the people who are doing their crossing is it even possible to be made that distinction in today's america well it's just stuff that i'm now joined by hani joseph

a professor i'll give back to. austin * and the author all the sword and the shield their revolution or realize it. and martin luther king jr professor joseph it's good to talk to you thank you very much which i'm. your parent and congratulations on the your book which was released just last month from my commercial mind of your i guess you wish for more should really say but as an american citizen as a goal or how do you feel about what's happening around. well i think i take great hope and inspiration in the fact that so many people have gone to the streets and to demonstrate most of the protests in over 100 cities actually have been peaceful you know the media is focused on the violence and there's been a huge amount of why protesters alongside of latin x. and asian and indigenous so it's not just black people protesting racial justice so

i think it's a great generational opportunity for the united states of america to finally get rid of white supremacy and institutional racism and equality we've seen racial disparities because of kobe 19. we've seen racial disparities and the criminal justice system education housing every single aspect of the united states now let me start missing least if possible but not by me as i was really your book well now the mechanics and dr king had earlier dish. a clear understanding of who and what they were up against that made all was galvanized public to get public support to change public opinion but when it turns out floyd's dad there's no disagreement that it wasn't very amity it raise that circle right this should never happen again and multiple investigations so what's the wind of bricks has saying when everybody

thinks really is that something like this absolutely shouldn't happen think yeah yeah that's a good question the boy is bigger than george floyd and it's bigger than the criminal justice system so one of things we saw in the black lives matter protest in 20131415 was really this argument and understanding that america's criminal justice system is in fact a gateway to panoramic systems of racial oppression and economic impoverishment so this is about the criminal justice system in the way in which united states over the last 52 years went from the great society in a war on poverty to a war on crime that criminalize the entire african-american community and we're thinking about whether people are poor or rich in the context of everything from racial profiling to an equal sense as between blacks and whites for committing the same crime so we think about why are people protesting it were protesting because one they want policy changes and transformations they want to change the money

that's being spent in the criminal justice system and have that invested in communities that are african-american that are racially segregated they're economically impoverished but they also want different policies in terms of. tax policy. zoning policy food justice and there's food deserts in all these different african-american communities there's environmental racism so many african-americans and their children suffer just fortunately from asthma there's high rates of unemployment and there's racial segregation in public schools and in rez and in neighborhoods so there's a there's a cascading reason why i feel of a god i'm not debating any of those reasons even though you know we have a look at the washington post data they don't police shootings are unarmed people of all races but in the last have actually decreased for areas where. police officers also all races out increase but. well that actually disputed

that data if you look at what the guardian has said and look at the guardian that is the british newspaper i mean the lies you have heard of them there is nothing out there so you can say that there are stacks other statistics and you can you can use that hysterics to set up your own narrative so but to plastic wrap power we'll be doing that is a progressive liberal newspaper that is i know i would i would actually dispute that the washington post as it is owned by amazon jeff bezos is absolutely not a progressive so i would fundamentally disagree with him but he imagines that people want a change in policy and where did they want that. either we supposed to be charge of making those he won't it is it's local state and national so people are right here in austin rather the people are organizing we did at that virtual town hall with over a 1000 people and the mayor was here people in the city council people want local change but they also want their states to change these policies and they also want

their own government so the way which our system of government works it's local state and national after all of those pieces together and to really divest away from funding in criminal justice that's about punishing incarcerating brutalizing traumatising and showing black people and putting those investments where communities and neighborhoods and people and our children are wrote respected and can thrive professor joseph but if you look at concretely not in general or any aspect with it briefly abbie thomas police department if you look at that last site it's a perfect picture of the recipe to have a blast at the last decade or so that our city is a different one doesn't stop systems of structural oppression and white supremacy so what people are asking for is not more racial diversity in the criminal justice system they're talking about right sizing the criminal justice system and down. as an equal justice system we have the biggest criminal justice system in the world in

the united states we've got 2300000 people in trees and we've got over 8000000 people on parole and probation so what people are asking for simply is this take the money that you're putting into criminal justice department incarcerate and contained but hardly black populations and put that money back into communities he's the founder needed for levels national law whole state etc but i feel that it rivet me that the actions of the concrete police department where these brutal murder happened needs to be at apparatus and it's not just any other police department be apple's was the prime minister was presided actually i think his role model what the child was supported by the central leasing it was promoted by the obama pollination you know the recipient of what they call a data driven back against racial disparity policing so they this is you know

the this is an institution that was actually arabic person sends a needle this teaches that the body what do you think happened there allowed for such a brutal crime take place that not just so why the police officer took part in it but. just standing by and watching that should say something about the larger culture. is that by now. well yes i think you're missing the forest for the trees creel justice and united states of america policing in the united states of america is irretrievably corrupt so even want to obama was trying to do federal guidelines where people at the grassroots are saying black people it's not about by can't it's not about people agreeing to try to be nice to black people when the whole culture is set up for them to incarcerate to punish to criminalize back up english they're saying we need to defund the police we need to defund criminal justice it's not about electing progressive district attorneys it's saying we need to reimagine

american democracy and it's not just about the minneapolis p.d. they are just the tip of the ice for a larger cultural corruption in the united states that's based on white supremacy it's based on anti-black racism that's based on a long history of gee unionizing and demonizing african-americans and punishing and incarcerating them so what's really important about this moment the reason why i argued in the washington post the boston globe on that and on meet the press that this is a generational opportunity we have a lot of white citizens who are also outraged by this because they realize that their stories are connected to the stories of the black lives that are being lost absolutely but then you have also have a lot of black why is it is that's why it's higher probably what's going on in that neighborhood there have been more than a 100 arses so it's not a small minority that's involved and that. millions of dollars and i just hundreds

of businesses look at a lot of people here and i have. probably dollhouse single down each store in that neighborhood their stuff sitting on the floor that they managed to steal during that wind. time and their blood by the way and when you say last week you know why did they steal the stuff for that daddy her company you don't. you know i think that fear and division talking when you look at the armory cannot instance anything that you know division 8. and there are a few days yet you have what when you think of the urban uprisings and the looting that's happened once there's been big portions of the violence that has been police and demonstrators and we have the social media to prove that that's happened in new york as happened in atlanta cops have already decided that you're not disputing but you're not putting it in into a context it's a logical fallacy to just focus on one side so no need to get not get even bigger

of a good example is just one side is what. that media had now and there is a lack of that what they turned our spotlight on so are you coming in right now the propaganda that malcolm would be against in that dr king would be against is the media trying to focus on one violence and not trying to focus on what is the origins what are the word of the rebellions why are people so upset people are so upset because a structural inequality and racism even though your black folks who you're saying have been have been looted we have in new york city restaurants and places that have been looted that are still helping out and giving meals to the protesters because they know that anybody who's looted is just a small fraction of people who are peacefully protesting so again you're missing the forest for the trees i'm not missing anything i shouted at her. i think malcolm x. would say that you are part of the propaganda machine that's trying to be black and

ledley absolute a god not an american audience away but there is that syria is not only because i didn't want it you're not in there in american makes what you're trying to assert in that analysis even less credible to your army your being there and they're admitting that you're being very disrespectful i think you think i have a pretty good whereas you know me now me and mock attack me. the war that i do or have a couple of black guys. being there live out of her black lady is also consequence . # white supremacy black generate he's beaten almost it down. is that. i mean here in arlington my ears i hear here's the problem i think there's a problem at the what you're trying to do by any means necessary to go from not the next it's utilized the uprisings that are happening to make an argument that

somehow black people are as racist as white people i think that's unbelievably unfortunate i think that's wrong headed and do i do that and i certainly think that black people i know people of race if i didn't say that i didn't say that i just said a moment ago actually i did 1st of all you're making an assertion based on some media clip that i actually haven't seen the course that i've seen aren't that black activists are getting white. white looters from smashing windows and telling them that's not what you should do so you're you're taking one that i actually haven't seen and making trying to make an argument that somehow you know there's a moral equivalency between that and why people are outraged by george floyd's execution and there's not well procedures or classical down her at all and we need to take a short break down they are going backwards united states. are

. join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and i'll be speaking to guest of the world of politics sports business i'm showbusiness i'll see you then. welcome back to worlds apart because neil joseph oh they're over this story and the

shield their revolution their real lives and marks. is a just of the last train to your book because i think it all present. on that you are a good job caring and. a mix and. i miss you a good doctor you can use this glorify me all nonviolence and peaceful largest while malcolm x. is an apologist for arms and. jogging from your book i guess it was a little bit more complicated than this. well yeah i think one of the things that i argue with malcolm in martin is that dr king has talked about radical black citizenship and malcolm x. is talking about radical black dignity and initially they are converging but over time they converge and they converge on this idea of human rights they converge on this idea of connecting radical dignity and citizenship together by dignity with

malcolm x. men was an end to police brutality and to racial oppression where more of the gene jr met by citizenship was really both an end of racial segregation and jim crow oppression but he met more than just voting rights jane argues that were people's campaign everybody needs a living wage he talks about guaranteed income talks about health care it talks about decent housing for all so when you think about these ideas of dignity and citizen ship even though usually think about change or malcolm is nonviolent there's a self defense that idea of dignity and citizenship is usually important and by the 1964 early sixty's or malcolm x. assassination we see them now only just meet once but malcolm listens to a speech taking gives after he wins the nobel prize he goes to selma and meets up with caressed scott king while dr king is in prison so there's really points at real convergence between both of their political class i think what many people

don't realize how that connections changed over the course of our lives softening in the. mix and hiding in the case of the taking of spiegel about dr king specifically are you saying that he was not oppressed almost sad ties posthumously . the narrative her american exceptionalism were going to be fair to say that dr king's legacy might call to buy white supremacy. well i'd say it was co-opted by liberalism and there's an aspect that has been co-opted by political conservatives who try to just focus on one aspect they focus on change all the way up into the march on washington and then they don't focus on him anymore and cheney really has to ask about social democracy he's not a communist he's not a marxist he's talking about social democracy believe he believes in both but he

was very impressed by scandinavian spouse ocean democracy where people have a social safety net jane is anti-war he breaks with the johnson administration over the war in vietnam and came really wants everyone to try to eradicate poverty so change really believes in the war on poverty even even to a greater extent than the federal government that it goes to mississippi marks mississippi which is the poorest zip code in the united states and i show in the book out he's easing tears when he's speaking to these families who don't have shoes who don't have blankets who don't have clothes and a really balance to go to go to austin d.c. and was important for us just like a protester say never again those changes planned for people's march with with poor whites with poor people from who are mexican americans with native americans and african americans all together to do this or people's march to try to transform american democracy in 1968 well that's right to be sure with the expression of why

the possibly because when you know the structure of american politics and american power it's actually racially mixed you have a little sister all white you have the 1st african-american president who has done this for him plus a mistake by his own admission unless you just roll like wow i think this sound most prosperous country trying to lead this is it me rebalance why as opposed to the you know the supremacy. really ready to exploit the glorified people of the skin color well since they're in charge so why supremacy is not just about right people it's a it's a political ideology a set of belief systems but it's also it's also actually a crude going up our economically socially culturally united states so there isn't there really are no white george floyds where you can have

a video of any police in all 50 states murdering a white person and i say no white people ever have deaths at the hands of the police there and a lot of them live like people killed at the hands of the police here and that black people you know because we're talking about because the demographics in the population where there are hundreds of white people white people who can't afford to send their actual dentist or children i know getting proper food and education and there are a lot of people like that yes there are a lot of you finish them for before we even talk over you tell you my dear explained what the white supremacy to me. it's really about whiteness i don't understand this white mystery because it's really the people who joined the resources were exploiting everybody else but here's the thing so way which way it is there's a possessive investment in that identity is that so even if you're poor and you're white you're going to be treated differently by and large doesn't mean there's

exceptions by criminal justice systems when you try to vote access to housing education so that's what we mean we think about white supremacy even though for whites might be hurt by economic policies that are crafted by lease they still have more relative access then they're african-american and or latin next counterparts so certainly does white supremacy have at times a negative impact on white people absolutely i would definitely say that including criminal justice but when we think about what is white supremacy mean it's a 0. literal and philosophical ideological set of beliefs that people embodied in that they proved real power and access from. the parish president of the united states bird my celebrated man all over it well a person or as i said before ruined it consciously that one of the most prosperous countries on the african continent where last were much better at egypt rated into

society than any of the other arab countries that today if they beat slave market or bull black and white is that example why should promise you are black supremacy imposed are beyond. what i would say it's black supremacy in close and african continent because obama he might have been the 1st african-american president but he still representing the united states and so we think about the military there are industrial complex. it's overwhelmingly white so even if you have a black symbolic head of that doesn't that somehow now you and i have a cigarette in the way i think a neat little scene in making decisions here is a put. him with the agency but there's no reason to racialize his agency in the context of him as head of the united states when the united states is obviously an imperial power but it's a racialized imperial power so it's not racialized enter our d.z. black people causing the imperialism so if you have

a black general if you have colin powell or barack obama just because they're african-american doesn't somehow change the edifice of the nation state they want. you know one of the things that i really like about malcolm x. and actually i've been very much nominated by his ideology a very i'm one of the things that i think that is that the real change to be our american units though coming in from the all in the bosom of the of the black. and that is actually the notion of personal responsibility to stop yourself everything you say it right now is even the african-american president that is the responsibility of the library at least right rarity is the raise the person and all of that phrase be where is the personal responsibility welcome doesn't really say as personal responsibility i would push back against that he says self-determination and so what he means is self-determination to actually break

free from the bonds of institutional racism and whites here immediately sarah yeah he he absolutely actually did but he was stating upon itself that we're going to rise as a political activist and as a political mobilize there to gain enough power to transform these institutions so this idea of just focusing somehow which which in a bipartisan way at times liberals and conservatives to black be a viewer misses misses the point because it's institutions that are structuring that be. havior black people have never had equal access to institutions and opportunity and outcomes in us society and that's why we're seeing these demonstrations and these protests and these these rebellions and the interesting things that you're seeing multiracial multigenerational rebellion happening in the united states most of it has been peaceful but they're really resisting this this this politics and practice of institutional racism now present just one last

question i have when i was a student and in that case you sound bite i was or i was growing up from a very poor family but one of the things that surprised me a lot about the united states is how many ever see it is there are herself you have great libraries great charities you have lots of scholarships affirmative action there unique opportunities for a person to develop and many many minorities a whale of. why the problem with people i decided i am not arguing that there are structural balances i think aaron has built into the system not our being of. the belief that what doesn't get next is stronger what is the problem with taking making use of all of god because look at yourself you wrote such a brilliant book like a bird about a look at michelle obama. and they all did because it's. easier to tally be you know all the black people that you are just victims yeah because of the last

well this is why supremacy isn't really. marry because of passion because there are many faults that i as a russian can say that the united states navy strives to purab in balance why i think it's much different for people there's there's so many millions of people who are british who live in segregated communities we don't have clean water we don't have access to good food here i'm so to tell those people to sort of lift themselves up by the bootstraps is is it's not a solution in terms of policy wise and we've done that to the african-american community rather than invest especially the last 52 years since 1968 since the uprisings after change assassination so even though absolutely there's going to be bubbles of racial progress and i to i talk about that i say hey you know it's not just iraq i'm michelle obama it's these these these big very successful entrepreneur or is it they are all saying that they got all of that and then you

got in and yourself all those people but that doesn't mean that that trickles trickles down to the entire community and that's not because of behavior or a lack of wanting to reach out for opportunities those are real real structures and telling people. the story of american history is not somehow introducing them to victimization they need to know they may 31st was the 99th anniversary. also racial massacre in the united states where over 300 african-americans were massacred out of the black wall street in the greenwood section. loma that's not in our books it's not in our books the impact of not just racial segregation in terms of textbooks but the redistribution black land that was owned by black people in the 1903 early 20th century that was taken in expropriated which helps explain the wealth gap between blacks and whites so we are talking about the truth of american

history just like talking about the truth of russian history that shouldn't destabilize or make anybody feel like a victim what it does is provide your context and actually provides you a way to try to transform your situation because they make sense that's what you do as an educator you try to show people why are we here why did george lloyd protest what is that all and expands a way that we can understand it so that's not victimization that's actually giving people really personal power and they are it to understand their situation and that's what malcolm x. wanted that's the norm the king jr one of the presenters and we have to leave it there i really appreciate you i think a pretty very spirited exchange can you. take it from watching us here again next week will there by. r r. r. .

we go to work some straight home. we're told the civil unrest in the united states and beyond is about systemic racism we're told western institutions and values are inherently flawed and wrong though neither really explain the real evidence of social breakdown what is really

in play here is an ideology and ideology that demands absolute submission and. what that we know from. plays you see go from me. but. i don't have faith in this government i don't.