on the common ground. hello and welcome to cross talk where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle speaking to west point graduates trying to say we're ending the air of endless wars 40 years ago on the campaign trail he said the same thing why is it so difficult for this president to make good on this promise why make the promise again if it can't be kept.

to cross off endless war i'm joined by my guest james to address and watched and he's a retired u.s. diplomat and former foreign policy advisor to the u.s. senate republican leadership and in new york we have lighter he is a professor emeritus of political science at rector's university as well as an adjunct senior research analyst at the institute of war and he studies at columbia university all right joining us across an effect i mean you can jump in and you and i also appreciate it ok james let me go to you 1st on this you were on cross talk during the campaign essentially during the election and after the election and what caught our eye mostly about trams candidacy was his willingness to rethink some of the pillars of american foreign policy and i was excited about i have to say that i know you were too and i think there was a national interest article that had his name on it but i think there were a lot of people that had their fingerprints on that article and he talked about it it was

a little odd but he was moving in some right directions here you know and now we have the president we go. seeking to graduate righteous and west point and he saying something that he said during the campaign was far as i'm concerned that's unkept promises and i am not disappointed he wants to keep you know that promise out there again because we already heard from james your reaction oh you're right it is a man kept promising to his credit at least he has not started any new war if he had to and that's despite severe pressure on i think for many quarters especially with this respect to iran where that said you're right you know he has not has not gotten his out he says you want to get out get out of germany now you want to get out of syria you want to get out right now understand and he never manages quite to do it we can speculate what reasons are maybe it's in terms of his own untidy way of approaching things personally maybe it's because as terrible as which is itself is or is a question why does he avoid these people or maybe it's. the strength of the

institutional structures of government and make it virtually impossible for anybody to actually be on the system and to do something other than what the system wants to do i really don't know at the end of the day it doesn't really matter but i think coming back to the will on the promise shows that he understands this is what the american people want they don't want these wars anymore maybe even joe biden will pay lip service to it too at some point but you know what we are where we are peter you know. me was like in the same thing here i mean it's obvious this is something that he wants to do and i think it's obvious that the public opinion polls 'd have made it very clear that they want these endless wars and it's and so it's much easier to say the next we do it i suppose go ahead professor what more are we talking about well i mean getting out of afghanistan getting out of iraq getting out of syria. why we. alleged. attempted coup against venezuela. and then we have on this more

pressure extreme pressure. you know red i mean this is just a continuation of the past administrations. yes. but in fact a little islands here number of americans really involved in chile book is how i understand war. is in fact really small and has not increased and if anything i thought we decreased over. again i think it depends on what you see these in these actions is involved most of them stem i think from 911 and from the concern concern for islamic terror. at this point it reached that threat seems europe decreased 6 actually not this year. but we had president truman saying that he wanted to leave syria those of us that were hoping for that were actually quite overjoyed and then very suddenly the policy of devolved back to where it was i mean

protecting syria's oil i mean well how in the world as i think in america's national interest and i do point out to our viewers here i mean is it against even the sanctions that the united states has put against syria so is the united states going to export that oil because that would be breaking american sanctions i mean is anybody think these things through please continue well look the one thing we know about our president is he does not think so and. he actually in polls. whatever strikes his fancy and the broader question which were rehearsing here i think what is the american government as a whole. and maybe our perceptions are good for my students use the 3 and the level of violence is is low i don't see any obvious evidence that it's going to increase now again depends a little bit we haven't talked about china riggs and the south china sea and that

whole set of issues. but at that point you're talking about a very different time next threat there and islamic terrorists. and you can reasonably argue they might want to use force. or another another. just sort of saying endless war seems to me doesn't go well i'm just i'm just quoting the president of the united states ok those aren't my words that is his words are ok with james you are to mention that in and we heard it during the the service call the impeachment process what was that the interagency consensus that's what you're getting to so i mean it was it was shown to be. blatant that the president the united states doesn't necessarily have to be involved with the interagency consensus ok because obviously these people within his own administration we're talking about at cross purposes here i mean they weren't elected trump was.

sickly right and this is where i maybe disagree with roy a bit is that look when we talk about endless wars we're not just talking about what they call kinetic action the level of violence we're talking about the entire posture of america's attempt to maintain a global hegemony it's would cringe in all sorts of places on the planet where our national security interests are rather shrimp and none or none the less we intend it we expect to remain it seems seemingly forever and we do things like you mentioned peter sanctions on syria which you don't even any pretend anymore that they're directed against the regime or really a true make people's lives as miserable as possible i also don't buy the notion that this is all because of 911 and islamic terrorism after all we've been supporting islamic terrorists in syria as we did mother countries like libya everybody forgets about that matter in the balkans that we've got this this should be 0 ships with his lama terrorists so we can hold up as a bogeyman will be want to but as

a practical matter we can use our proxies in these various wars and in fact i i think there's good reason to believe we're even helping to stoke the fires and change yeah with islamic movement there so i think this idea. analysts who are is can just be limited to how much shooting is going on but rather the entire i hate to say it aggressive posture of the united states on a global scale over the last certainly what sense the 1st cold war with the show union and you know really could well what is the reasoning for it i mean i think by and by any estimation the middle east is basically a strategic water but why it is the united states continue to invest so many so much money resources each. in manpower and and the most in one of the most important ally society arabia i mean it's really quite obvious that we're not really aligned in almost any other way it just seems to me it's like inertia it's just a nurse because what's what we do i think that's a that's a that's it

a poor imposing that is going in and it has no interest section. or. the middle east was seen as important for what time it was. and while the united states is you know a position to work much of that oil is in fact a global issue not a national. at this stage of the game in your shoes iraq on. what the iranian government is interested in doing. not as has some peculiar. implications as you touched on. i mean you know what's the connection between that and 911 well you know. minimum there are different points islamic. folks involved. and it is ironic that most of the latter attackers were from saudi arabia. i mean but isn't

is he ran a threat to the united states. yes i think in the sense that if in fact it decides to. alter or process in substantial way on my ticket it has direct impact on your western europe and i think we're touring europe is absolutely essential so you know you know if we're going to be simply isn't isn't there you know ran actually reacting to america american foreign policy i mean they're not the proactive player they're reacting to saying sessions that are really quite horrific and anyone says it's directed against the regime it is either doesn't know what they're talking about or there are lying i mean it's obvious they want to punish the people that really mean my point is that iran has its own foreign policy agenda that's fine but wouldn't it be more reasonable at the middle east work itself out i mean because you have this you have this situation with the

united states as well it is an arbiter and it actually creates dependency many regimes in the middle east for not being proactive in their form but with the americans they can't let them pay for i think that there's a lack of imagination here i'm sorry it was a long question. you know. that's where we want to project basically you say ok let's hope their problems and if all this only involved the middle east it makes perfect sense. it doesn't look james jump in how do you react to that. i again i fundamentally disagree here 1st off there is american policy the middle is just kind of 2 headed it's obviously oil energy something that really shouldn't concern us much anymore and then of course the other thing is if you're evil which is the other i would say non economic. pillar of american policy in the region and that has all sorts of roots to it that we can we can discuss it i remember mcfarlane formerly of the n.s.c. was interview that she panicked you months ago and she pointed out that because of

our energy independence we so that time that we no longer had any interest in the tribal quarrels of the middle east and then she said and that's why we can now go and hammer iran and why did we kill generously monny because we can't now when i said there is just absolutely stunning and that we don't care about the trouble who are so let's dig down and really hammer one of the parties and a tribal or course iran is not a threat to the united states as a threat to israel and israel sitting on a pile of nuclear weapons i kind of think they can probably handle that themselves but any case all these people in middle east have one thing in common they ain't us and our direct national interests are really not at stake there with regard to europe and its dependence on middle eastern oil remember we're the ones who are insisting on trying to cut off more extreme to another ways that europe can't secure its own and energy security through a natural. relationship because nomic relationship with russia all of this comes

down to a sketch of a shelf wicking ice cream cone we have to maintain global dominance because otherwise we couldn't maintain global dominance and i think it's become a still of actuating justification well you know all these little branches out here in the washington suburbs don't pay for themselves there are a lot of people whose rice bowls yet still buy endless empire and look we've got a revolution. going on here are you going to say that not everyone is a registered as a as a or an agent i'm going to do it gentlemen we're going to go to wes or break about your discussion the ending endless wars. some control for a middle class type of

a night muslim are very hard working people who want to get ahead that have either have some some health issues or have some of how destructive bad luck the whole time joel moon told his pay for a place to live and missing just a month's rent can get she will victim to gunpoint if anything bad happens to any thing that just throws your budget off slightly. you better catch up real quick or you're going to have a judgment of possession against you and get addicted to anyone that's homeless is history like garbage people look at you like a monster or someone bad or you chose to be there most of the time it's not the case see how it is to be paul in the world's richest country. seemed wrong. but all in all just don't call. me. yet to stamp out to stay active. and engaged equals betrayal.

when someone find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground. welcome back to cross up were all things are considered i'm peter lavelle remind you we're talking about ending endless wars. ok let me go back to you here i want to kind of extend with something that james said here and this is this interagency consensus here i mean does that really in your mind because then it really kind of says that it isn't really matter who the president is because the bureaucracy is already to determine the priorities of american foreign policy and while the president can say something because doesn't

necessarily mean it's going to happen it's matter of fact it's quite obvious i mean in a lot of terms problems of foreign policy are self-inflicted why in god's name to be a point bolton i mean it was just stunning ok and illicitly you know saying with this the in the phrase ending and was hoarse i mean like any complex we should so when there are 2 though we would like north korea you know i have a lot of issues with president trump on all kinds of things but i thought it took a lot of courage to go and meet the north korean leader i thought it was something that was never done before it was a chance and because of the deadlock that we've had for so long here and it seemed obvious to me that it's administration just torpedoed that it may actually make them look like. and so you know is what is it that can change foreign policy is it really that strong of a consensus of an it is that it has nothing to do with what the president ran on and why not go ahead. mark one of the key issues here is personnel.

and it is quite striking welcome talks about ending most wars he has a real passion people who want to continue the yeah when he experienced people and puts them in very strong position i think that is the case he does a little appear soft probably near look you need a psychologist. like you know. all. but you know your implication is that the bureaucracy is doing its own thing. well i'm arguing use when you pick hawkish people to run the bureaucracies proxies yes if you require different people with different kinds of concerns and introduce you to her behavior yes i think you were now obviously a lot of inertia here your procedures are like you know the whole if they move all weight i'm in the same direction. the best prediction for what

a bureaucracy will do just put it there yesterday. but they can in fact make change but they have to change who can change this on a sort of striping of sniping at the edges which is essentially what what trumps comments implied right you know you know i'll say this and things will happen but you got an equal in there who actually believe that and he hasn't done that so i think it's kind of is a little one stair to say well maybe it isn't. i think it's unfair or just simply saying. oh ok didn't didn't didn't ok james then then trump is hapless ok i mean i mean he says something and so he knows that no one's going to react to it i mean it there has to be an explanation but this year i mean the next ample of syria is the perfect one but he's getting out of syria ok and then all was said and you know it all the brakes lock up in every

moment you know hair on fire i mean i was just astounded by the reaction i was actually responding by the reaction to trump's address to the graduates it was only to me everyone's on air is on fire again i mean they're just so did. you wait wait this guy out so they can continue doing what they're doing which i don't see in this is my personal opinion it doesn't advance a national interest whatsoever ok at all it just as a huge drain on the treasury when there is a when we have so many domestic problems at home. that i wish he had picked better . and you know if wishes were horses then beggars would ride but none of that happened and it's not going to happen i don't think would happen or in a 2nd term managed to remember how much even his adversaries praised him on the 2 occasions when he hit syria with a prisoner although that was his leno that was being presidential when he did that but what he what he wants to get out of syria which by the way is a deployment it's illegal anyway you look at to be her under international law or

american law allies you say harry goes on fire i don't think it's an either or to say bad appointees or the bureaucracy for whatever reason he has and i'm not to speculate that he has. and appointees who are essentially in sync with the global hegemony crew graham be inertia as white points out of the bureaucracy i don't think i think the problem is if there isn't anybody riding herd on them it wants to cheer to change direction and i think we saw what would happen it would be a should general flynn of anybody who is even suspected of wanting to change the direction you'd be putting his head through a noose anyway sure he picks people that essentially are part of the problem and here we are so here is effectively not commander in chief use more between her and she well you know james and then the implication at least one of the implications of this is that foreign policy is completely divorced of the democratic process i mean if even no matter what people vote for or the debris can be up to say well we

know better ok and i think that that is very tragic and there's there's strong evidence research on the 2016 election where they can wrestle districts that were t.v. for tribes victory were congressional districts that had veterans to service retirees i mean people that had served in the military and that is his words of ending these complex resonated with him that we don't know for sure but that might get you know made that difference or him last time around and i think it's really out of sad that he has to go out and have to say the same thing again. i don't know if he's being advice to be about i don't know i mean speeches to west point are made up on the back of an envelope i imagine your writing is in syria is there such a thing as a trump or a policy in your mind. no ok what you said this about that. i'm not sure any answers are.

you know either real there really isn't i mean there are these sort of parents so now a geisha. going terms of actually doing something not much is there i do think he has a weakness or. he likes i think to be surround you like force you like the idea of force and i think you like being surrounded by people who think things are really tough and strong why that is. and that's your psychiatrist problem let me flip it the other way let's assume biden wins it was reconnaissance a assume of life and victory and then the question is. do we in fact getting them a 2nd because biden really does why. do we then assume that that we're bureaucracy will do the same thing and he will be able to do this. i mean i think it's unfair to say that you are proceeding successfully resisted all

these desperate desperate efforts by like from change policy has drawn hasn't made a serious effort to change you just tweeted about it. what may not be i was fortunate to get to me it's very unfortunate because we've never had a candidate that actually in the least in my estimation tried to get a fresh look on foreign policy and say maybe we can do in a different way like i mean in the me the the literati you know in the end you know the cable station you know doubting nato i mean anyone that knows anything about nato there's been there's a huge literature on is nato necessary in 2020 but they have reacted if there was some you know religious thing i mean seriously people have said you know they've discussed it with i mean it's not is it was from some regional idea but the idea itself is we're talking about ok moving troops from germany to poland look i mean

that doesn't change anything james in will or you know it's lurking behind all the talk about getting out of endless wars was also improving ties with russia which he also promised in 2016 a of course a response we got this hysterical russia russia russia you know over the past 2 years you know i hate to think of the prospect of joe biden winning because i think the best equipped that's going to see the consolidation of dictatorship here at home and that i'm terribly afraid of that i do wonder however if a president biden would be capable of actually reaching out to moscow in a way that trump is prevented from doing in a way that it took a nixon to go to beijing in the one $970.00 s. so that a democrat could not have done that but a republican could and i wonder if somebody from the party of of russia gave russia syria actually has more freedom in this area assuming he would want to do that which i don't that's a fair game so i got some bad news for you ok is that i think at this point it by hand is. reached out it's not going to be taken because of the way that it did

there's still distrust right now i mean all of these sanctions baseless they based on nothing it's really quite insulting and the whole issue with you mentioned it very well i'm glad the north korean i mean you know the united states is going to turn in the energy policy of every single country on the planet i mean countries like russia and china to say why we're not people including the red ok and so i don't i think there's that inertia that we've been talking about that isn't going to change so and rolling that we're rapidly running out of time you know well how do you explain this men try to get rid of all arms control agreements it is that. means inable in your mind you know it's crazy it's crazy no. you know. i think all i think all those agreements that he look he starts off by scrapping the agreement with iran which i think was a mistake really i mean it's just bizarre. and then he winds up having to say ok

well maybe we're going to do it again well you know no trust trust and trust. but look if you're appealing to his what he sees as his base then anything that looks strong international affairs wonder and anything that looks weak assed pronoun and that's what he did and i think my sense is that it did play well to the basics reports one really did get don't you think also considering trump space being a peace maker that also shows strength i mean you know everybody remembers nixon for watergate in popular culture but james already pointed out richard nixon and henry kissinger pulled up a bismarckian. gambit and opening up to china it was a brilliant absolutely brilliant and i think for him considering he had no bad. i gauge he could have said look let's go back to that we will keep this agreement

let's go figure out what they should have done as they are other issues keep the agreement and then say we've got this and now we can talk about things that we really need to talk about i think that could have gotten some traction there and importunately or pete oh ok right i'll give you the last 25 seconds go ahead. all right steve constraints and. wishing for horse. caught out. but no i mean i. believe we're undermining the whole sort of. sure we are trying to make large scale while it's less like. was grossly irresponsible and it's honest and it has set a heritage concert set in a sense. that the united states cannot be trusted because any new president will change the whole thing and that is a long term cost we're going to have and then we'll work. better when that's all

the time we have want to thank my guests in washington and in new york and i want to thank our viewers for watching as the iraqis the next time remember. we go to work you stay home. in the troubled 19 seventies a group of kilo's rampage street thugs of northern ireland that was coordinated

loyalist attacks to take the only catholic population in belfast tens of thousands were forced to flee their homes and what was striking to point these attacks was that the r.u.c. the police actually took part in the attacks so instead of preventing it they were active participants in the burning of full streets in belfast at the time more than a 100 innocent civilians were unloaded as the review can seniors and we found out more i was surprised about the extent and of the currents which the inclusion was involved in some of those cases the killers would later be named goodwin and gang i think it went to the very very top i think it is cross the water where all the patients you thought was going on and give the go ahead.

in the headline says friday the 19th of june then the children being humiliated by french police leaving human rights group details traumatic testimony about raw. their id checks against black and arab males old one as young as 10. local for 6. to live on his own people see through the city plan of learning to diplomacy is all from duties on president putin was about playing games with history in an in-depth article for a u.s. news magazine on lessons from the 2nd world war.