water on their mortgages or just been laid off and americans simply print money to bail themselves out like a pal is printing money to bail themselves out that's not right is it. hello and welcome to crossfire where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle speaking to west point graduates trump said we're ending the air of endless wars 40 years ago on the campaign trail he said the same thing why is it so difficult for this president to make good on this promise why make the promise again if it can't be kept.

to cross off endless war i'm joined by my guest james to address and watched and he's a retired u.s. diplomat and former foreign policy advisor to the u.s. senate republican leadership and you new york we have lighter he is a professor emeritus of political science at rector's university as well as an adjunct senior research analyst at the institute of war and peace studies at columbia university all right gentlemen in effect i mean you can jump in and you and i also appreciate it ok james let me go to you 1st on this you were on the crosstalk during the campaign especially during the election and after the election and what caught our eye mostly about drums candidacy was his willingness to rethink some of the pillars of american foreign policy and i was excited about i have to say that i know you were too and i think there was a national interest. article that had his name on it but i think there were

a lot of people that had their fingerprints on that article and we talked about it it was a little odd but it is moving in some right directions here you know and then we have the president we go speaking to graduate righteous and west point and he's saying something that he said during the campaign was far as i'm concerned that's unkept promises and i am not disappointed he wants to keep you know that promise out there again because we already heard from james your reaction oh you're right it is a man kept promising to his credit at least he has not started any new war if he had to and that's despite severe pressure from many quarters especially with this respect to iran where that said you're right you know he has not has not gotten his out he says you want to get out get out of germany now you want to get out of syria you want to get out right now understand and you never manage just quite to do it and we can speculate what reasons are maybe it's in terms of his own untidy way of approaching things personally maybe it's because as terrible as which is itself is

or is a question why does he avoid these people or maybe it's. the strength of the institutional structures of government and make it virtually impossible for anybody to actually be on the system and to do something other then what the system wants to do i really don't know at the end of the day it doesn't really matter but i think coming back to the will on the promise shows that he understands this is what they've merican people want they don't want these wars anymore maybe even joe biden will pay lip service to it too at some point but you know what we are where we are peter you know we're in with us like in the same thing here i mean it's obvious this is something that he wants to do and i think it's obvious that the public opinion polls 'd have made it very clear that they want these endless wars and it's and so it's much easier to say the next we do it i suppose go ahead professor what more are we talking about well i mean getting out of afghanistan getting out of iraq getting out of syria. why we. alleged.

attempted coup against venezuela. and then we have on this more pressure extreme pressure on iran i mean this is just a continuation of past administrations yes. well i interact a little while i'm here number of americans you know you're both in chile now i understand war. is in fact or was small and has not increased in it anything but we decreased over time. again i think it depends on what you seen these industries actions since you brought most of them stem i think from right away from them from a concern concern for islamic terrorism. this point it reached that threat seems europe decreased 6 actually not this year. but we had president trying saying that he wanted to leave syria those of us that were hoping for that were actually quite

overjoyed and then very suddenly the policy of devolved back to where it was i mean protecting syria's oil i mean well how in the world as i think in america's national interest and i do point out to our viewers here i mean is it against even the sanctions that the united states has put against syria so is the united states going to export that oil because that would be breaking american sanctions i mean is anybody think these things through please continue well look the one thing we know about our president is he does not think so and. he actually in polls. whatever strikes his fancy the broader question which were rehearsing here i think what is the american government as a whole. and maybe our perceptions are good for my students use the 3 and the level of violence is is low i don't see any obvious evidence that it's

going to increase now again depends a little bit we haven't talked about china riggs and the south china sea and that whole set of issues. but at that point you're talking about a very different time next threat there and islamic terrorists. and you can reasonably argue that might want to use force. or another another. just sort of saying endless war seems to me doesn't get us very well i'm just i'm just quoting the president of the united states ok those aren't my words that is his words are ok with james you are to mention that in and we heard it during the the service call the impeachment process what was that the interagency consensus that's what you're getting to so i mean it was it was shown to be. blatant that the president the united states doesn't necessarily have to be involved with the interagency consensus ok because obviously these people within his own administration we're

talking about at cross purposes here i mean they weren't elected trump was. sickly right and this is where i maybe disagree with roy a bit is that look when we talk about endless wars we're not just talking about what they call kinetic action the level of violence we're talking about the entire posture of america's attempt to maintain a global hegemony it's would cringe in all sorts of places on the planet where our national security interests are rather slim to none and none the less we intend it we expect to remain it seems seemingly forever and we do things like you mentioned peter sanctions on syria which you don't even any pretend anymore that they're directed against the regime or really a true make people's lives as miserable as possible i also don't buy the notion that this is all because of 911 and islamic terrorism after all we've been supporting islamic terrorists in syria as we get another countries like libya everybody forgets about that matter in the balkans that we've got this this should

be 0 ships with his lama terrorists that we can hold up as a bogeyman will be want to but as a practical matter we can use our proxies in these various wars and in fact i i think there's good reason to believe we're even helping to stoke the fires and change yeah with the islamic movement there so i think this idea. analysts who are is can just be limited to how much shooting is going on but rather the entire i hate to say it aggressive posture of the united states on a global scale over the last certainly what sense the 1st cold war with the show union and you know really could well what is the reasoning for it i mean i think by and by any estimation the middle east is basically a strategic water but why it is the united states continue to invest so many so much money resources each. in manpower and and the most in one of the most important ally society arabia i mean it's really quite obvious that we're not really aligned in almost any other way it just seems to me it's like inertia it's

just a nurse it's because what's what we do i think that's a that's a that's it a poor imposing that is going in and has no interest section. or. the middle east was seen as important for what time it was. and while the united states is you know position to break much of that oil is in fact a global issue not the national. at this stage of the game in your shoes iran on. what the iranian government is interested in doing. not as has some peculiar. implications as you touched on. i mean you know what's the connection between that and 911 well you know. minimum there are different points islamic. folks involved.

and it is ironic that most of the latter attackers were from saudi arabia. but isn't is he ran a threat to the united states. yes i think in a sense if in fact it decides to. alter or process in substantial way on my ticket it has direct impact on you or western europe and i think we're touring europe is actually essential so you know you know if we're going to be civil in the isn't isn't there you know rand actually reacting to america american foreign policy i mean they're not the proactive player they're reacting to saying sessions that are really quite horrific and anyone says it's directed against the regime it is either doesn't know what they're talking about or they're running i mean it's obvious they want to punish the people that really mean my point is that iran has its own foreign policy agenda that's fine but wouldn't it be more reasonable at the middle east work itself out i mean because you have this

you have this situation where the united states is all it is an arbiter and it actually creates dependency many regimes in the middle east for not being proactive in their form but with the americans they can't let them pay for i think that there's a lack of imagination here i'm sorry it was a long question. you know. that's where we want to project basically you say ok let's hope secure the problem and if all this only involved the middle east it makes perfect sense. it doesn't look james jump in how do you react to that. i again i fundamentally disagree here 1st off there is american policy the middle is just kind of 2 headed it's obviously oil energy something that really shouldn't concern us much anymore and then of course the other thing is if you're able which is the other i would say not economic. pillar of american policy in the region and that has all sorts of roots to it that we can discuss and i remember mcfarlane

formerly of the n.s.c. was interview that she panicked you months ago and she pointed out that because of our energy independence we saw that time that we no longer had any interest in the tribal quarrels of the middle east and then she said and that's why we can now go in to hammer iran and why do we kill generously monny because we can now when i say there is just absolutely stunning and that we don't care about the trouble who are so let's dig down and really hammer one of the parties and a tribal or course iran is not a threat to the united states as a threat to israel and israel sitting on a pile of nuclear weapons i kind of think they can probably handle that themselves but any case all these people in middle east have one thing in common they ain't us and our direct national interests are really not at stake there with regard to europe and its dependence on middle eastern oil remember we're the ones who are insisting on trying to cut off more extreme to another ways that europe can't

secure its own and energy security through a natural. relationship because nomic relationship with russia all of this comes down to askand of us felt like an ice cream cone we have to maintain global dominance because otherwise we couldn't maintain global dominance and i think it's become a still of repatriating justification well you know all these rich branches out here in the washington suburbs don't pay for themselves there are a lot of people whose rice bowls yet still buy endless empire and look we've got a revolution. going on here a minute not everyone is a registered as a as a or an agent going to be gentlemen we're going to go to west or break it up to your discussion not ending endless wars.

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looking just like say hey paul needles. welcome back across up were all things are considered i'm here lavelle remind you we're talking about ending endless wars. ok let me go back to you here to kind of the extent and with something that james said here and this is this interagency consensus here i mean does that really in your mind because then it really kind of says that it isn't really matter who the president is because the bureaucracy is already to determine the priorities of american foreign policy and while the president can say something because doesn't necessarily mean it's going to happen it's matter of fact it's quite obvious i mean

a lot of times problems of foreign policy are self-inflicted why in god's name to be a point bolton i mean it was just stunning ok and in whitney you know same with this the in the phrase ending and was forced i mean like any conflicts that we should so when there are 2 going to like north korea you know i have a lot of issues with president trump on all kinds of things but i thought it took a lot of courage to go and meet the north korean leader i thought it was something that was never done before it was a chance and because of the deadlock that we've had for so long here and it seemed obvious to me that his administration just torpedoed that it may actually make him look like coolish. and so you know is what is it that can change foreign policy is it really that strong of a consensus of and it is it has nothing to do with what the president ran on in one go ahead. or one of the key issues here is personal

and it is quite striking welcome talks about ending wars he has a real compassion for people who want to continue their yeah. very hawkish people and puts them in a very strong position that is the case he doesn't want to appear soft probably i mean you're lucky you need a psych artist. like you know. all of. you know your implication is that the bureaucracy is doing its own thing. what i'm arguing is when you pick off these people to run the bureaucracies the brothas will do that yes if you appoint a different people with different kinds of concerns and interests different behavior yes i think you are now there's obviously a lot of inertia here bureaucracies are like you know locomotives they move slowly and in the same direction. the best prediction for whatever accuracy will do is

what is there yesterday. but they can in fact make change but they have to change and you can't change this. sort of sniping of sniping at the edges which is essentially what. thomas implied right that you know you know i'll say this and things will happen well but you gotta work people in there who actually believe that and he has done that. so i think it's tied is a little on stage or to say well maybe it isn't. i think it's unfair or just simply saying you just. want to her oh ok didn't didn't didn't ok james then trying to says topless ok i mean i mean he says something and so he knows that no one's going to react to it i mean it there has to be an explanation for this if i meet the needs ample of syria is the perfect one but he's getting out of syria ok and then all the sudden you know it all takes the brakes lock up in every moment you know hair on fire i mean i was just astounded by the

reaction i was actually responded by the reaction to trump's address to the graduates at west point i mean everyone's on air is on fire again i mean they're just so did. you wait should be this guy out so they can continue doing what they're doing which i don't see in this is my personal opinion it doesn't advance a national interest whatsoever ok at all it just as a huge drain on the treasury when there is a when we have so many domestic problems at home. i wish he had picked better people and you know if wishes were horses then beggars would ride but none of that happened and it's not going to happen i don't think would happen or in a 2nd term managed to remember how much even his adversaries praised him on the 2 accusers when he hit syria where there is no doubt that was his the no that was being presidential when he did that but when he when he wants to get out of syria which by the way has a deployment it's illegal anyway you look at of you who are under international law or american law allies you say here it goes on fire i don't think there's any door

to say bad appointees or the bureaucracy for whatever reason he has and i'm not to speculate that he has. and appointees who are essentially in sync with the global hegemony. graham be inertia as white points out the bureaucracy i don't think i think the problem is if there isn't anybody writing. heard on them it wants to cheer to change direction and i think we saw what would happen oh it would be piece of general flynn of anybody who is even suspected of wanting to change your direction you've been putting his head through a noose anyway sure he picks people now essentially are part of the problem and here we are so here is effectively not commander in chief use more between her and she well you know james and then the implication at least one of the implications of this is that foreign policy is completely divorced of the democratic process i mean even no matter what people vote for the debris can be awkward as say well we know better ok and i think that that is very tragic and there's there's strong

evidence research on the 2016 election where they can wrestle districts that were t.v. for trams victory were congressional districts that had veterans to service retirees i mean people that had served in the military and it is his words of ending these complex resonated with him that we don't know for sure but that might get you know made that difference or him last time around and i think it's really have to sad that he has to go out and have to say the same thing again i don't know if he's being a vice to be about i don't know i mean speeches to west point are made up on the back of an envelope i imagine your writing is in syria is there such a thing as a trunk or a policy in your mind. no ok what you said this about that. guy not your security answers or your d.v.d. crap. you know either real

there really isn't i mean there are these sort of parents so now acacia. determines that actually doing something not much is there i do think he has a weakness or. he likes i think to be surround you like force you like the idea of force and i think you like being surrounded by people who he thinks are thinks are really tough and strong why that is. and that's your psychiatrist problem let me flip it the other way let's assume biden wins and has become a say assume of life and victory and then the question is. do we in fact getting a 2nd dissolute by. do we then assume that that we're bureaucracy will do the same thing and he will be able to do this. i mean i think it's unfair to say that you are proceeding successfully resisted all these desperate desperate efforts by like from change policy has drawn hasn't made

a serious effort to change use just tweeted about it so. what may not be i was fortunate to get to me it's very unfortunate because we've never had a candidate that actually in the least in my estimation tried to get a fresh look on foreign policy and say maybe we can do in a different way like i mean in the me the the literati you know in the end you know the cable station you know doubting nato i mean anyone that knows anything about nato there's been there's a huge literature on is nato necessary in 2020 but they have reacted if there was some you know religious thing i mean seriously people have said you know they've discussed it with i mean it's not as it was from some regional idea but the idea itself is we're talking about ok moving troops from germany to poland look i mean that doesn't change anything james jump in will or you know it's lurking behind all

the talk about getting out of endless wars was also improving ties with russia which he also promised in 2016 of course in response we got this hysterical russia russia russia you know over the past 2 years you know i hate to think of the prospect of joe biden winning because i think the best equipped that's going to see the consolidation of dictatorship here at home and that i'm terribly afraid of that i do wonder however if a president biden would be capable of actually reaching out to moscow in a way that trump is prevented from doing in a way that it took a nixon to go to beijing in the one $970.00 s. so that a democrat could not have done that but a republican could and i wonder if somebody from the party of of russia gave russia syria actually has more freedom in this area assuming he would want to do that which i don't know yes i got some bad news for you ok is that i think at this point it by hand is. reached out it's not going to be taken because of the leak that there's just trust right now i mean all of these sanctions baseless they based on

nothing it's really quite insulting and the whole issue with you mentioned it very well i'm glad the north korean i mean you know united states is going to turn in the energy policy of every single country on the planet i mean countries like russia and china to say why we're not people including the red ok and so i don't i think there's that inertia that we've been talking about that isn't going to change so and running that we're rapidly running out of time you know well how do you explain this men try to get rid of all arms control agreements it is that. interval in your mind you know it's crazy it's crazy no. you know. i think all i think all those agreements that he look he starts off by scrapping the agreement with iran which i think was a mistake really i mean it's just bizarre. and then he winds up having to say ok

well maybe we're going to do it again well you know no trust trust. but look if you're appealing to his what he sees as his base then anything that looks strong international affairs wonder and anything that looks weak assed pronoun and that's what he did and i think my sense is that it did play well to the base reports one really did get don't you think also considering trump space being a peace maker that also shows strength i mean you know everybody remembers nixon for watergate in popular culture but james already pointed out richard nixon and henry kissinger pulled up a bismarckian. gambit and opening up to china it was a brilliant absolutely brilliant and i think for him considering he had no baggage he could have said look let's go back to that we will keep this agreement let's go figure out what they should have done as they are other issues keep the agreement

and then say we've got this and now we can talk about things that we really need to talk about i think that could have gotten some traction there i think and then portray are we likely or pete oh ok right i'll give you the last 25 seconds go ahead. all right steve christensen is your answer which is for horse. that. well no i mean i. they did did the lead we're undermining all sort of agreements we were trying to make why i don't like is was grossly irresponsible and it's interesting and it is how it is set in a sense. that the united states cannot be trusted because any new president will change the whole thing and that's a long term cost we're going to have in the field of. debt limits all the time we have want to thank my guests in washington and in new york and i want to thank our

viewers for watching as the iraqis the next time remember. the simple things workshops hymns and peter's back up public spaces where adults with learning disabilities can engage on equal terms with creative activities like

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