hello and welcome to part from the way to me interact with the environment to how we treat each other and my guest today believes that. all the other nerds aside he is showing us unique so what's in there is my passion when it comes to all that 19 well just doesn't analogy by frank sesno mcnamara insists. that is a diversity of the overall mix and society of the black president says noting that such an honor talking to you thank you very much for. thank you i'm delighted to be with you. and still in the process of devouring your book i read. the

other was striking combination. rather than reading about it do roll up and down the story about this and. i know that the bull came of the press. just weeks before politics instruct you as you know yourself like i do at times europe do. i hope i'm not a harbinger of doom i haven't thought of that if i think it's a pretty certain the incident is that it is absolutely and as a result of my own life has also been somewhat up and it is like everyone else's of course and by saying that if you laugh was at the end. mad while researching your last book easily your talents would be exactly parallel wires and know that you they fully recovered from that but how was it was it not only being there but actually experiencing it. why don't you recommend experiencing the

disease itself that isn't my favorite memory of this period i will say it's been very interesting and instructive to be here to understand different countries experience and disease in different ways and to note the extraordinary measure of compliance that's been a shrinking feature of the autonomy and experience in fact the local newspaper wrote a very amusing article in which it said this was the 1st time in 3000 years of the history of the city of rome or italians ever going to bt and. i think it does show something about the compliance here and the way that the message was very coherent and very clear and i think i am not sure whether the same can be said about the united states it's also has at the time it's. but perhaps even the lawyer might tell it to your particular age i know it's

a stupid question that still if you had it sure as. all that they said would you prefer italy or the united. actually i. have to tell you i think i would prefer to be right where i am. i believe the american response to code 19 has been incoherent to put it mildly now we'll talk more about that but let me. a little bit history because for most people there is something it isn't scary about the damage because there is so large and very difficult but the point you make in your book is that they are fairly predictable they actually still be logical he says that he has prepared for them i say that we have since really brought her to think you have or are. not putting you'd always like dodges to abroad and on ourselves but we have created the preconditions for it and then we

did not actually respond to the warnings that were given repeatedly for order of a century in order to deal with it so in that sense it was a chronicle of a pandemic foretold we did not respond in any coherent and constructive way to all of those warnings from avian flu sars mers and now we have code of 19 i know there have been many warnings and you know others can get it done . with them but since we didn't know anything about the origin how would they have been better prepared. right i think 1st thing is what dr tadros. is. in order to be just really prepared in a global world in which what happens in jakarta in the morning will happen in rome in moscow and new york city by the evening in that sense

we really need a strong commitment to an international organization. and move resources a strong world health organization was an important feature we also need for everyone on the planet should be have access to health care you know they will however it is a sort of led by the that is that you mentioned. and so that in the best possible way to either because some of the advice given has been very very various it was very critical or. was a very very isn't really we as people need to ask that this will appear. i think that we as a global community weren't prepared i'm not here to give a brief to defend everything the world health organization jitters made many

mistakes i agree entirely we mustn't throw out the idea of well funded a well organized properly led and supported our organisation is something that's so important our of our survival kit as a species and so i make a distinction everywhere goes ation makes mistakes the w.h.o. made some very big mistakes but we cannot really expect to confront. without a strong international organisation that you have very thin about. done it's. just that the diseases. own personality when i think about it 19 it strikes me as a very mediocre virus we won't have made such a name for if it weren't for globalisation am i wrong i think your runt.

would not have actually arisen without what we've done to encourage spillover between species and human beings to our repay schuester struction of the environment and particularly deforestation which for a into more and more contact with human beings so there's. and it required our large global population it require massive air transportation of people all around the globe enormous speed and it required dense population in cities that are very crowded together or disease spread through the air can be readily transmitted now given how it impacts them to have. as is are being. we understand that the brawl that died late is this your perhaps very large but i have to say that everything you know who really is standing by the study of history

for example that the or it's all slavery that grandison or slavery as a stripper if it leaked in florida to the logic or our thinking a lot about that as the all whites and the russian race of those of the united states. believes that slavery be causing. any plague us let me just take one of the very specific example of his fun and the arrival of christopher columbus when the aspiration of the spaniards was to sue gent the native population of our walk says they were called to be slavery to mines and plantations unfortunately for the our white house columbus and his crew brought diseases that europeans

experienced as childhood diseases and had a great immunity or earned immunity to them as the our woks this was virgin soil and they had never met or encountered these diseases and so the small pox measles were the true decimated the population. over a 1000000 in about a decade to just a few thousands too and so it proved impossible to insulate the native population because it died away and therefore i think if began in 1512 the idea was to bring people who had a similar immune munity to some of these diseases and so they turned to the africans and so began the on from can slip. trade and so we can say didn't turn to the office for khan and the development of african slaves marie was

in large for condition by differential immunity it's actually mind boggling just think about it that 5 years ago they would have what is essentially is you know logically juvenile policy but why we're going to take. them i have is that all the while had there they were 896-8000 are shared humanity common and you need to reform the other and they were so lean denies humanity to those people why these paradoxes never rationalize i think that the 2 are actually irreconcilable and in fact it was true that this was dealt with unsatisfactorily many of the slave states in the united states and other countries do follow racial was medicine in which they claimed that people of a different race or almost 2 different species they had diseases but many of them

did knock over or if they did their bodies were affected in different ways this was the origin even of the tuskegee so who was experiment was to demonstrate this truth even as late as the 19th thirty's and forty's and fifty's it's it's extraordinary but it's the truth i'm now as you are also still. microbes were instrumental not wholly in bringing about slavery but also at least classically seeing it all the mass and the slave rebellion anymore and they hate me as as the prime example because the african slaves. for their lives far have immunity as yellow you are while you're used in have and what struck me the most about this whole story is that the leader of that very balanced the rates were all this was the. aristides egypt about the way he always brown eyes the military i'm waiting for

the yellow fever season started. deep people really have to go to grab biology and. 100 years ago. i think that the battle is the most pointed. right there was not actually a modern understanding to sound live or if you're dead how was it was very follow medical events he had worked in a hospital and he was also went to with traditional held practices is. he knew the europeans you know this is well they regarded the caribbean as a white man's grave and so it was well known to him the europeans outing when they 1st came to the caribbean or enormously vulnerable in the summer to yellow fever and that they died of it in great numbers and so he used his knowledge

to not to fight anything but rule warfare until the summer came and then to use true draw the soldiers of the british into the interior and they became sick and died of yellow fever in massive numbers so yes this was this accounted for his success because the. french commander actually wrote that 80 percent of his troops died of yellow fever and the other 20 percent were recovering and in capacitated to their weapons and so only and was forced to surrender and he became an independent nation and with the end of slavery and well our good for them and our purpose is no there. we have to take this short break now but you will be back in just a few moments. 6

. console you can't get away from advertisement urging you to change your appearance and. many local people see plastic surgery as a prerequisite for a successful career employers are often most interested in the job seekers appearance as a graduation present parents often give doctors plastic surgery for an extra fold in the eyelids to make their eyes look to go. almost every korean teenager dreams of looking just. needles. president vladimir putin in his own words tells us how he understands history and the current international system also why everybody there we think it's john bolton

as he lost all the way to the bank. welcome back to worlds apart bit brad snowden professor emeritus at. the auto. sites you lash out at present for business no then earlier in the program. the racial violence in the united states are sure it is pretty painful for you to observe as an american citizen but do you have any relation. to your studies in other words in the past 3 months isolate. or as joe as those who are struggling to cross the line from peaceful protests. more violent acts and

yes is the 1st answer but i think not quite in the way that you're suggesting by your question the protests have mostly been peaceful is a 1st point i would like to make others 2nd is this disease is following a terrible trajectory. targeting the disadvantage because of the conditions in which they live structured out way by our society and so that 19 as disproportionately affected our kind of american has found americans and native americans at terrible rates much more than a white population and the economically more advantage so these demonstrations the killing of george foiled human after months in which people have been experiencing this great disparity in their

relationship with the disease and so this was been a long term part of american lung and not surprisingly people were very very aware of this disparity and or anger and he already in 899 on the grid is story and w.e.b. dubois noted these disparities in health between african-americans and the white population and he of the most extraordinary thing was not the disparity a civilized nation would tolerate such as. i didn't do it once you discover the economic disparities but i think it's also very interesting and perhaps. a policy question. before diffraction immunity because you see the mortality of 19. grammys are wrong but from what i know it's not the common one thing that is so

scary about the complications from the stars that most definitely. very different impact on various countries getting it actually such a good idea to have a uniform almost uniform policy of response to call it 19 around. actually think when we're talking at the moment of what's available in order to combat the disease may be different where we have therapies and a vaccine for example at the moment however there is only really one weapon and that is social distancing and doesn't vary whether you're in mumbai or in new york city the president now the national you know very well the president so it's a social distancing some of them a service most of them in fact is he speaking straight or insoles which have a major economic

a social impact on the populations and i was answering with most agree that the lowdown on the side of our side is there are harder than others and i would assume neighborhoods in the united states and even in russia they are higher than the other states to what extent do you think economic. considerations should figure in. that we see from emergent size of the lower valleys friend that eat me up all are imposing a quantum state uprising about a different society very different. no you're you're absolutely right and i don't mean to say social distancing has to be a sound on policy and in fact if you impose your miss long downs as has been done vigorously in india. has to be a people one star. and so what is happened as i'm not trying to say to

praise the policy of the i'm just saying that it was a stark reality that they had to accompany with our programs to ensure that people would get food. and so one does have to tailor the nature of a lot. down a social just insane hi jean it measures to the reality of the society in which they occur but the basic strategy. or hand washing if possible a social distancing are very important the only problem is it is very possible to be in a society where there isn't water for how and washing and where you live so many people told room in crowded crowded slum. social distancing becomes very very difficult to crowd just think as a consequence even countries that are on those measures in some countries it's some

difficult in the 3rd world and we're seeing this balance upsurge in india and in want america and that's are of the result of. now correct me if i'm wrong but if it was china the 1st try these holes where i'm seeing the rest of the world he pretty united states. i get it from your both that something like that may have been privatised during the place years. people didn't have much of 3 size more delicate schools but most recently it probably has been moving towards more discrete matters like he's finding unsafe i am wondering if. they say when you are. moral or immoral suzy supposedly is a people's lives for the economy it's going to become permanent and isn't really

such a progress when it comes to public health. i think i would say that of public health is the number one priority i believe of a civilized nation and so. doesn't if you do knowledge the economy to beyond a certain point you're also going to create problems of new problems of health and disease malnutrition hunger and so on and so i don't think those 2 things should be an opposition i'm not saying there shouldn't be a reopening an attempt to restart the economy i'm just saying has to be done in a very planned and careful way and not just going back to life as if cove in 1000 didn't exist but if you look at what's happening in your own country people how little of it i do know that is that surveys of saying out there rallies or i've

arrived would you be surprised if after all these street even wouldn't see any. of the things i do expect that there will be a wave of covert 19 a result of the reopening and i believe that was in orange because the reopening was not done in a planned way and it was done before there had been a planning of the curve as people say now and so yes i am pessimistic about what this will mean in terms of health in the united states. who are really beginning late summer and into the fall now you made a very every person. case in one of your recent interviews debbie how the most vulnerable people on the planet is a determining factor. for all of us and call it 90 has demonstrated that he didn't

live. i'm a single person that would mean that i realize ation is far more forceful and tackle than any. you know panic about values people act out of. self-interest far more probably that. because of any moral imperative do you think the bill now is we're investing in you public health of the developing countries or vulnerable people simply as as a result of so interest on the part of the beach or on the part of the success. i don't want to say that in any automatic sense and i think just very briefly i would say it depends on whether you mean short or long term short term i think absolutely not the immediate impact is to fracture all to break solidarity to undermine world health organisation to breaking ash no unity to break apart the

european union in lawsuit ways and i think nationalistic. attempts to solve the problem and the instituto are tarty are going to fail because they're dealing with physical reality and you can't bargain with nature and it's nature that has delivered this message and so people will be no only in the long term are going to have to adjust the way they live and conduct business to take into account this new vitally important aspect of our life the need to assist with that 19 so i think some important changes in a positive direction are going to happen out of our self interest as a species we can survive without changing he also said that. this car on the bar is how does it really brought us out of work and the roles that of us humanity

have to make huge grin thinking laterally rather than by see the prison it's not the guys it really the bad but i think one message that i didn't do last few weeks is that. nobody ever attacked me or my families how bad the not. eating very mostly white eat and how much we've been very disciplined about sleep actually size and most jazz. preserve your metabolism and you strengthen your immunity don't you think that it all i'd say that personal responsibility out that would be gone way past the age that governments of the world can survive. i'm afraid i have to agree with you i think individual initiative of the kind that you're taking is lot of all

important and it has very important to fact this is good and needs to be encouraged indeed there needs to be more education for individuals and sound ways how they can protect ourselves and the people they care for that is critical the only thing i would say is that it's not possible for everyone there are people all the advise us i was saying to wash your hands if you don't have water supply the advice to practice social distancing if you live in a moment by slum or there are 10 people sleeping in a room if you don't have access to education or to medical care then you're not able to do that if you can't decide that when you feel ill you'll stay home to stay home for work because you're found late and you'll starve if you do that so i think there are many many people not so well placed who can't take those

measures on an individual basis and the whole point of all is to be sure that those or most vulnerable in our midst are cared for and not cannot be done by those people it needs to be done on a societal basis as well that this is another we have to leave it there thank you very much 1st it's been a great break. through my pleasure is well thank you so much and thank you for watching i hope to see you again next hour as well that part. of our own. bar. and.

join me every. time i'm sure and i'll be speaking to guests of the world but. i'm sure. i'll see that. the world is driven by a dream shaped by one person. thinks . we dare to ask.

a knife attack in a park which killed 3 in southern england is declared a terror incident by police the sole suspect is reported to be a libyan asylum seeker also. one person is killed in an overnight shooting in seattle's no police a protest zone campaigners resisted officers as they arrived preventing them from reaching the victims plus at this hour in our look at the week's main news. supporters rally behind a friend released from custody after video of her aggravated arrest of drew further angry protests.