nigeria sent to seize control but the chick quit because of illness or more coming up in today's going underground the 1st us president donald trump may have placed the blame for the current pandemic on communist china by coining it the chinese virus but evolutionary epidemiologist and author of big farms make. suggests that it's actually capitalist greed that catalyzes deadly viruses he joins me now via skype from st paul in minnesota rob welcome to going underground just tell me starting off about how not just big foams make big flu but your previous work near liberal eveleigh suggests that capitalism fostered coronavirus one of the things that we get so programmed and is on the specifics of each of these viruses in terms of their clinical ors and thereby rolla g. and that's all very important but what we've done is we've lost the context in which a series of new pathogens have an urge with the 20 percent in each one of those is tied into use changes or station that's being driven by global capital

and now you don't biased because you had karuna virus you wrote the book before you go to but you contract a drone a virus what is the health care in the united states being like remembering of course of the united states has plenty of money when it wants to spend money well it's health care night states it's just another form of making profit so you don't have the money then you don't get the health care even though not under obamacare you have 28000000 people who are on harvard 24000000 more are under insured it's not the basis for responding to a global pandemic the viruses certainly didn't get the business memo that they were supposed to cooperate with the profit system well they may have killed it may have killed a 100000 or more americans but you're alive. i am gratefully but not

by dint of the american medical system i in essence was frozen out of the my doctor's office and had to be diagnosed online by a nurse practitioner who neither saw either or hear of me and so to be sure that this is new want a back ground effect of neo liberal politics only response to coronavirus you're saying we need radical invasive change that's not. the lock downs that we experience in nato nations you're talking about it's something else absolutely i think one of the things we do is we get so focused on the emergency responses where which are absolutely necessary including the lockdowns including whatever vaccines were able to develop though i'm not too hopeful about that but the problem is our focus on the emergency aspect of it moves us from a understanding or exploring the more structural issues that are driving the emergence of one deadly pathogen after another some point we're going to have to

come face to face and understand that our very mode of civilization is now driving the emergence of these deadly pathogens and we have to do foundationally break with that mode and develop a much more integrated relationship with earth and aren't ologies and i want to explore some of those has it's in a moment but you're claiming that political power shapes both the infectious diseases and the sciences that study the diseases. that's right one of the things that scientists it's an amazing thing i'm a scientist myself an evolutionary biologist but one unfortunately history of science is very much into greater with the emergence and history of capitalism in such a way that. science has been used as a means of de coding nature but only in the context of whether or not to help

somebody a profit at some point when we're confronted with problems that don't bend in that direction science has difficulties with grasping and unpacking those phenomena and so we find ourselves in i think the pandemic the exact thing sample of this we found ourselves when confronted with problems that don't bend easily to a modification then we are in essence unable to respond in a way that deals with the problem so what are we supposed to take from say the british prime minister morris jones when he repeated the end his ministers repeatedly say we have full oohing the science is actually following a politicized neo liberal version of sons which is not the evidence based scientific method it'll oh that's right well science and capitalism have a way of pointing to each other for rationalizing their takes on things and

so we have a situation where many scientists hired by the state or by companies are in essence putting models out that in essence support the system that brought about the pathogen in the 1st place. so obviously we see donald trump often flanked by multinational pharmaceutical company and c.e.o.'s of big companies but you in your book big firms make big flu you ironically do support donald trump in saying it's the chinese flu of the womb flu because at the beginning in the book you say the w.h.o. was wrong not to talk about the origin of influence in other pandemics or certainly in the chinese do you bear some responsibility for the emergence of multiple strains of influenza. viruses but china isn't the only epicenter for diseases we have for instance it's $5.00 and $2.00 the influenza

avian flu and so they emerge here in the united states we have swine flu h one n one that actually did go pandemic in 2009 that emerged from outside mexico city we have ebola emerged out of west africa primarily out of of the neoliberal interventions that are all over the forestation and the spillover of the polar strains so certainly the china. china does bear some responsibility but this is a global problem is see if i put on a hat of a c.e.o. of a big agribusiness company ok i might blame the mining companies for deforestation which as you show in the book is so intimately related with the spread of epidemics but i'd say your book talks about the big flume is this corona of ours is supposed to come from a small from maybe a wildlife market is completely different to agribusiness. well i would say

mining does have something to do with this. as well as logging in. and in addition to your business but as far as coronavirus goes it's a little bit more complex but as. a culture large agriculture and sense of operations pushed their way deeper into the for its it forces small holders to relocate and that also plunges into the local forests increasing the interfaces between small holders and wild animals that are almost for many of the new pathogen the other thing to understand is that the wild food trade where everyone's pointing fingers that it's not this kind of totally differentiated operation from big ag increasingly capital is flooding into the wild food sector and becoming

more intense of it in such a way that more traditional large agriculture beginning to be modeled by the more wild food sector and so as both those types of arming into the forests you have in it increasing interface with wild animals and increasing spillover of these new pathogens so how are these interconnections exacerbated by something unprecedented in human civilization the ability to travel thus distances quickly we're only just putting a quarantine here it britain's amp what's what would you said to morris jones and about the fact he that our immediate response here in britain was not to shut down the airports i think in the us you had ample it's open to. that's right well. the global travel network is. the most integrated network of what we've seen and human history someone can go from one side of the world to the other in and

a half day or so so it's. any pathogen they might be caried can move that way and that's the thing that's so shocking is the speed at which new pathogens might spill over from the deepest forest in make a way to a regional capital and then onto a plane and to the other side of the world in short time and we're you know we despite the fact that we've left airports open we should have known that that was probably going to be the speed at which corona virus was going to make its way in the other direction from asia to the united states and give direction to europe. because of the kind of insidious nature of the. pathogen and its clinical course we just chose not to act and and here in the united states some of the studies have shown that covert 1000 was circulating in washington state for 6 weeks before it

was ultimately the detected as to be circulating among among people here well the numbers of dead are truly breathtaking in your country oversee more than 100000 as to the origin you theorize that the pathogen may have existed already and is deforestation that exposed it and allowed to escape. well there's been a lot of work sincerest one that showed that there are multiple strains of coronaviruses in bad species across central and southern china and they have been spilling over into local populations both human and animal. for since then if you keep rolling the dice at some point one of them makes its way across. into some combinations of animals both wild animals and livestock and ultimately into the humans typically the labor that taking care of the livestock and then subsequently on its way to

a local city most of those stars don't make it to human to human but if you want so while we do have one and in all likelihood sars one and starts to will be followed by a sars 3 and you really think of the logic of neo liberalism is that companies involved in deforestation and so forth a 1000000000 dead is fine with them so focused on their own process to profits. well i mean it's really easy you just blame the virus or you blame the chinese or you blame smallholders for cutting into the forest. there is at this point it's they've got these rapid response teams crisis management packages and go out and all these outbreaks and make sure you continue to externalize the costs of intensive production so that everyone carries the costs and everyone carries the blame if you were to fold and the cost back onto the company balance sheets your

business would be and as we know it. you there more for mobile us all the big farms make big flu after this break plus we asked the director general of nigeria's center for disease control dr hecht with a country ravaged by previous epidemics never learned i.m.f. structural adjustment programs appears to have dealt with coronavirus so much better than britain or the usa political coming over but 2 going on the ground. join me every thursday on the alex simon show and i'll be speaking to guests of the world of politics or business i'm show business i'll see you then. nuclear power plants have become a battleground in the u.s. in vermont people are demanding the shutdown of a local plant for my yankee is right now my focus because it's

a very dangerous prayer power plant the owner is attempting to run the reactor beyond its operational limit this case just sort of puts a magnifying glass on where's the power in this country where's it going is it moving more towards corporate interests or is it more in the idea of a traditional participatory democracy is for power lie with the people this case demonstrates that struggle in very real ways. our struggle on hunty. welcome back i'm still with rome wallace author of big farms make big flu the w.h.o. arguably has never been more in the headlines you give a very nuanced account in your latest book china has just given 2000000000 dollars donald trump appears to be withdrawing cooperation with do you think make him off the w.h.o. well you know historically speaking these kinds of crises do have

a way of killing off international organizations we think of the league of nations where war won so many of these organizations are very particular and very conscious of the possibility that their fates are in the hands of not only outbreak but the nation states on which they depend for their finances and legitimacy in my view of there should be a w.h.o. but we think they're in the middle of being caught in something of a crossfire between time in the united states and my view the united states says some of the world systems there is support it is on the far end of the end of that cycle of the cumulation capitals being turned into money in other words. american base capitalists are in essence cashing out and so what was previously post world war 2 an exercise of political power making sure the capitalist moral system worked

including cleaning up pandemics of capitalist own making a round the world that's why c.d.c. here was such an important part of responding to outbreaks worldwide well that's been rolled back in essence in a matter of months which is quite extraordinary the united states is basically in essence washed its hands of its responsibilities to run the overall system of capitalism including beating up at them it's so i know on the other hand sees it seizing. the opportunity it's on its front and that cycle of accumulation it's turning money into capital and it's interested in building empire and building infrastructure including public health infrastructure which will allow it to accumulate capital as the as the new imperial power on the block as it were whether or not successful on that however it's up in the air we are in deep environmental crisis and we're arriving at a stage where earth and not support these kinds of cycles of accumulation is the

london host of the global alliance of vaccines and immunization boris johnson gave a speech there bill gates gave a speech there we had the boss of it and goes. on the program and then she said that it's no problem that these weston responses are linked to big pharma being too foundations like the gates foundation and that actually far from what you're saying these as we would call it as many would call it new liberal capitalists and philanthropists are doing their best to save millions of lives far from ignoring the risks of pandemics because of what they do for any individual. philanthropists they might be indeed encouraged by good feelings and good intentions to actually use their money to help save people at the structural

level however once we are in a position to ask those from whom they develop or they got their money by virtue in essence engaging in some of the practices that. are promoting the emergence of these pathogens in the 1st place i mean if you're depending on those people to intervene in a way to keep those packages from merging then we're in some trouble because there's an interest in there in the why. in hand they are in favor of the practices that led to the emergence of these diseases even on the other hand they're trying to use some of that money to intervening i don't think fall anthro capitalism is the means by which we're going to fundamentally change the. way of living and life in our relationship with the earth and an ecology that that we can stop these pathogens from emerging in the 1st place if we're in the business of just cleaning

up after one pandemic after another then. indeed i think we're in some trouble it's highly unlikely that additional pathogens will be emerging we're not going to have the 100 year delay that we had from 1901. and in less we make some foundational shifts in the very mode of civilization that the we're operating under we're going to be exposed to new pathogens and in the future finally just to one irony arguably some of those companies obviously helping in the contract ing of one of your biggest taxpayer funded industries the military what do you make of the fact that after edward snowden who sought refuge in moscow after revealing mass surveillance how that massive valence the telephone calls not being able to be used for track and trace for a pandemic threatening us all well i would not sure if i agree with that i think many countries that been using that in. the news for better and for worse but not

the n.s.a. cia program that was a real way snowden is that being used to save american lives i don't think it is i mean certainly not in terms of being deployed to help with endemic stuff i mean i don't i don't think there we would even consider the american response as anything organized at the national national level there isn't a national program for a response to coronavirus here. solve in the fall down to the local and state levels in fact the federal government set off a. black market competition between states for better waiters i would say i wouldn't quite classify the us responses being. even at the level of basic. you know that there is no contact tracing other and some

a little bit at the local level so if the n.s.a. is involved in doing anything about coronaviruses we certainly don't know it or wallace thank you. nigeria has been called the poverty capital of the world ravaged by i.m.f. restructuring programs and epidemics 40 percent of its population of nearly 200000000 people live below the breadline and yet coronavirus deaths are exponentially worse in britain and the usa than in the u.k. former west african colony joining me is the man leading the fight against coven 1000 there the director general of nigeria's center for disease control chick with acquisition he joins me via skype from nigeria's capital abuja thank you so much for coming on the show so we may have had about 60000 excess deaths here in britain with a population of 67000000 how come nigeria apparently has recorded less than fewer than 4500 deaths or so with 200000000 people i think 2 things i think it is very

early to reach any conclusion. that burden both of. disease and death because you know those are the time aspect influences the transmission and also influences what we do see of what's out across the globe across the world but there are also many things you know whether you borrows introduced into it should go that direction if you've got the virus the population are a bit garbled. you know that the depths of sadly to do it that calgary kids i go you need to nigeria the proportion of that he didn't know up in south africa india do i got so a good definite is something happening on the continent i don't know if so far that's limited the broad no bets that we're see you say it's too early why didn't you stop all contact tracing systems in nigeria like we did here on the 12th of march. i have you know contact tracing is very much out of our response it's part

of the d.n.a. of any public health response to out infectious disease outbreaks and although we did hear though that's not a whole lot go up i could really speak about the response of the u.k. i could only speak about that if nigeria had you know we were struggling to weed out resource constraints it's a big complex country a large population and doctors really why would lock down spend it not to to enable the response but there's no other tool that we have now or that you know contact tracing it really that out work that we do in response to infection these outbreaks that i was last i you know see but. fortunately republic by the governor of that so we've really got out so street into this capacity to carry out this type of work across the country you see here in britain the media routinely says that the low

death counts from the global south merely show that they may be lying about the statistics the chinese communist party invited you to woo hand what do you find there because china is always being accused of falsifying coronavirus statistics i understand you never went to the actual woo han lab or wildlife market that i did good at that law but what my impression was that china is really other type we went i remember out the time we went cogs are very much already dick like is doubt that you know to implement shutdown successfully you have to have as much determination not resources to carry out you know truly a deployment of food resources but since everything else it takes to keep the population alive at active despite being shut out and you were doing got this is that i mean you ready immediately you know we were going to struggle with something like this you know probably across the rest of the words. that was immediately not

the policy for me and i would have led to results of the 1st bishop but the police had to prepare for a response that maybe the bits i'm with you get the impact of this what you know the reality to be honest this is a top iris the toughest i've ever seen in my lifetime i think the stories of the most successful countries will go up at all this side of the end of the year where you stand by your contact tracing which as i say the british government has said had to be destroyed that system in much they've now reintroduced to quarantine which is only just begun in the past few days or so months after the pandemic was detected here in britain why did you decide to quarantine the u.k. registered aircraft britain would never quarantine a nigerian aircraft you know i think we're used to a world where most of that narrative has been effected to gird from the global south so the global nodes but the reality is that most of the infections in nigeria

keep it from europe mostly from the u.k. i'm not the only buy you get sick of the baby nigerians coming back to have kind of trouble because it is to a location but ultimately so it was you know done as a public health measure all to basically you know the better that we have so many contradictions west struggling with decision because egypt up has a big economic impact i've got to put a big impact especially docket that also cost lives about the end of the day if you remember that you bought outbreaks of west africa while people died from the consequences of the outbreak that struck the barras itself so we have to be very careful in judging that taking the big picture it's a concentration you mention the economic impact money is seemingly no object here where we are paying 80 percent of wages and maybe a greater proportion of this population here in britain it's state funded the same there in nigeria because. i understand the i.m.f.

okayed 3 and a half $1000000000.00 for coronavirus some suspicions about where all that money is going some labs have not opened $1.00 what is that the role of the i.m.f. in this and i'm going to ask why don't does it going on strike that understand people he was better in nigeria than he has some reports suggest yeah i think it would if it's impossible to really compare the economic realities i'm definitely after but economic might to respond to an outbreak like this but to the you can't idea we're really out there for this level it's an opportunity to do all of that so yes government has really tried to reprivatize its for not share resources for the response that sometimes they're out to burrow it's not an easy decision for any company difficulty dems a bit opera great use of the resources especially start with which is in my control of the national public health used to weight brought up in front of the temperature

committee responsible for showing up or a great they're expected judge will be put into very carefully the challenges that we're stuck there probably very dopey terms about the public health infrastructure we don't have to build back better for the future one thing is for sure is that there will be a lot of debits in the future one thing you for sure all the countries i think that each other much of africa because of trouble because of trade and we must work together to find solutions if not bring those together because i would do a little long tab exists that it's probably more dependent i'm not predicted to collaborate that area that we never can operate that sufficient director general thank you thank you very much that's in the show when we're back on wednesday 3 is the day the world health organization claimed yemen had a bombing by british made warplanes and weapons had over 200000 cases of cholera i don't know what your hands joining on the ground and your sound but it's a time to turn face.

east west needs national blood to start i know when they've been able to muster that solicit it was a propagandist you also his kind of scene from the regular morgue you're more your partner going to provide. a. water source a cure all but us lucifer mistletoe is just that a look i don't have time to throw. it is not my achievement mr davies our 5 year of plans were conceived. and carried out by the people themselves if they would produce or even floor it with the idea of making a film like this they'd probably be branded as crazy. how was the sentiment during the war the soviets were brave heroes resisting nazis that's going to change of

course after the war but once the cold war begins. i. think that hollywood is a free place but really what is strictly defined by one side of the business and the other side is ideology. how would i define hollywood is a call to dream manufacture which i think's true but i think equally it's a problem in the fact. that.

the buildings melted steamboats mere pieces. welcoming our viewers from around the world to live from central london this is r.t. u.k. . it's a much the matter arrested in connection with such today's knife attack in reading where 3 people died it was known to the u.k. security services i'll be talking to a terrorism expert. the problem is to get set to announce the easing of lockdown restrictions for the hospitality industry as the government is criticized for continuing to quarantine international travelers we'll hear from a risk expert. windrush campaigners demond to the u.k. government implements the findings of a key report and did fears the immigration scandal could repeat itself we hear from the filmmaker who's looked at the offense leading up to the scandal. and privacy

campaigners claim the government is misleading the public over the security of health service $119.00 data with technology firms said to profit. this in large the suspect arrested in connection with saturday's terror attack in reading was on the radar of the u.k. security services libyan refugee carissa dollar was detained under the terrorism act and is accused of stabbing 3 people to death and injuring several more. around the world but with all the latest on. so the suspect was known to the security services. yeah absolutely this incident terrible incident taking place on saturday evening in reading in the park at shaw 3 gardens now this person the suspect in question reportedly approached

a group of people who were sitting in the park and then began lashing out with a blade or some type of might and 3 people were left dead 2 of the victims have been identified one of them a teacher by the name of james funnell another one an american citizen by the name of joe ritchie bennett and of course there are those who have been injured being treated in hospital now the suspect was arrested within 5 minutes we understand today respects were paid a minute's silence was held at 10 am at the school of that teacher mr photo and also the home security to tell visiting the site in reading to late hours and pay her respects as well and the home secretary saying that so there is still a lot of in the information investigations to be carried out but let the police and the authorities will do what they can to prevent such that could lead again we've

got a lot of information to gather we have to look at all aspects of what happened on saturday the individual that's in custody as well to ensure that yes justices' so but also we make sure that we learn the lessons from what has happened over the weekend to prevent anything like this from happening again the security services have records on thousands of people and rightly so the subjects of interest people often say there is very definite i can say but at the end of the day when it comes to m i 5 in our intelligence and security services they work intensively to look at the backgrounds of individuals to see what kind of risk they pose to society to our communities and they act accordingly in terms of what kind of protective measures are put in place around those individuals. so as i mentioned the police have arrested somebody there is a suspect in police custody who is this suspect he is reported to be

a 25 year old man by the name of trade he said he is a libyan citizen we understand he was granted the silence live in the u.k. back in 2018 he's been arrested before and on this occasion it was for this particular crime he was arrested on suspicion of murder it seems that he was rearrested under the terrorism act that he has been arrested for crimes in the u.k. for sure and according to reports. he said all that was on and i five's radar it is understood that he had traveled to libya there are images going round on social media of the 90 card believed to be mrs saddler's that he belonged to a fighting but one of the rebel groups that were fighting against can ok duffey by the name of the 17th of february brigades and of course all of this will come as somewhat of an embarrassment to the security services because many of these men who were going back and forth between the u.k. and libya to fight against gadhafi would have been finding themselves on the same

side of that fight as nato forces and so there are many questions as to how much the intelligence services knew how much of a threat they didn't and as we understand his probation officers who keeping an eye on him for those other crimes that he had committed said that he had had a mental health problem so could it be that some of your thoughts he's merely just put it down to him having mental health issues and didn't really take the threat level a seriously as they should it now we understand pictures that will be addressing the commons within the next half hour with an update on the investigation and of course we'll be keeping so that as well for to us until i have to say a saudi thank you very much a day. well for more on saturday's events have now joined by terrorism expert and former president to david david thank you for joining us well corona virus has dominated the headlines for months now have way or rather the enforcement agencies perhaps taken their eye off the ball. i think maybe we have kate because obviously

the pandemic the dangers that posed i mean to ourselves that was something that was of great concern but the security service and counter-terrorism policing and i have a few contacts still and in the police there they not kept their eye off the ball at all though if they've been working looking at the constant threats in the course of the previous correspondent said one of the issues is the fact that this this this man was a subject of interest and they had to do a risk assessment and but we look at this fact there's 3000 individuals who are actively being looked at people of concern so they're deemed as a high risk and it is between 25 to 30000 subjects of interest so it depends on the quality of information intelligence good that comes in on an individual and on these risk assessments are not taken lightly the taken very seriously because the last thing you want to do encouraging terrorism is detect where we've been fortunately probably is now such that with 3 people killed he was

a prevent it so we cause we've seen it before with other incidents where individuals can get such a low level it's hard work on a system that has a subject of interest but deemed a low risk for that but judging by some of those numbers he was saying that day there's no way the security services can actually stop every line attack if someone is on their radar already that's right it's it is it's a fluid thing it's not a static there's constant assessments made on all those individuals even those who are subject of interest if more intelligence or information comes ed that poses that they could be a greater threat than they will be looked at but let's sort of betterment as well that since march 27th seen the u.k. security services in the counterterrorism police are actually prevented over 20 terrorist plots from happening i mean example is the convictions recently for the attempted for the for the plots on st paul's cathedral so you know that they are working. this shows that they're working but of course these type of attacks where

one individual acts on their own. who can be inspired by whatever they're looking at reading out there are so so difficult to prevent and neal buzzie the current consensus had to go of cancers and policing that is breed system up grow even under the park over from direct to them i followed and said the virtually impossible to stop so it shows the enormity task that u.k. security services and police are facing and also david the pandemic has kept most people inside as well but there's also the risk that the isolation could also bring these kind of incidents can't it. i think there has been a cause of concern because obviously i mean the way we're working and it's like us now i'm not in the studio on one concept and you flew through sky our work practices the chains were using you know different methods of communication so having virtual meetings and of course were a lot more so while we were indoors there was that danger that some individuals are

there for an islamist cause or ever as far as you know my areas of concern extreme far right and so on who could be imbued with this but it's just so sad that you know he's he's the lockdown. sort of coming to an end if you like instructions being left and we've had some great weather and it's great celebration that we can go out and meet our friends and family and then there's this absolute disaster happens on saturday so i think with it's about ourselves but also being a bit more vigilant advocate david thank you very much indeed dr david out. prime minister boris johnson is set to announce the easing of lockdown restrictions for the hospitality industry on tuesday including changes to the social distancing rules the 2 major social distancing rule could be relaxed to just one metre to allow restaurants and pubs to open at near capacity with july the 4th has long been pencilled in as the reopening date but conditions are expected to be attached

patrons could be asked to register when they enter an establishment so they can be traced if an outbreak occurs and drinks and food could also be ordered in advance by smartphone or tablet with no queuing at bars allowed well health secretary matt hancock says britain is clearly on track for an easing of restrictions but if a surge were to happen the moves would be reversed the industry has taken a massive blow joining the lock down with many outlets facing permanent closure well that's as m.p.'s scientists and business leaders call on the government to digits coded 19 travel quarantine system professor peter p.r.'s the director of the london school of hygiene and tropical medicine says it's completely useless and should be dropped as soon as possible where experts say the blanket restrictions which force all arrivals to quarantine for 14 days would only have been successful at the very start of the pandemic. or former all of this unknown job by risk experts professor david alexander david thank you for joining us once your take on

quarantined you think it's too little too late. it probably is in history protein has been very useful at stopping this pretty zs for example in seed ports but here in the modern world corona teen on its own is not going to work tracing testing selective isolation and so on there are all parts of the necessary package of measures that we need in order to get this under control but blanket quarantine pearlie isn't very helpful at this stage for example if you're coming to britain from a country with a low infection rate that what exactly is the point of current in your at the point of arrival for 2 weeks. on the other hand if you're coming from somewhere like brazil with very high rates of infection or iran then perhaps there is more point of it what do you anticipate a quick way here of all so many kids lost the trailing one of them killed it. well i think i'm sure that a review will take place on a fairly continuous basis and there will be plenty of scientific attends to get

evidence to work out how effective protein is or how ineffective eighty's however the only consensus is that at this stage carnitine actually is not much use not much help to us and the nanny case is really only going to be useful or told if it's part of a package of things in which testing and tracing absolutely vital said the more we can test the better it is and the more repetitively we can test the better it is we do need to open up the economy and then we have the debate over to beaches and 3 meters or one meter sorry one meter is definitely a zone of risk indoors most most of the infection occurs in indoor conditions the extra metre is a sort of buffer zone bearing in mind that many who have studied this it just that they have the virus is carried also by air or so not merely by rather heavier

droplets therefore cared for that and actually public total it's a very much a potential source of infection we do rather than eat those as well and a lot about that in the hospitals is that to base the what you were just saying is the timing right now looking at july the 4th as it relates to reopen. but i suppose starting factotum wednesday i'm going on holiday to the seaside myself to a hotel and to a bay the year stablish mint having looked as carefully as possible at the risks involved and having chosen somewhere where i think distancing can be maintained if it is if people have made the rules if the rules are good enough and they're all fairly simple then i think we can keep this under control what we are beginning to see now is localised flare ups of the disease in various places currently in germany but they've also occurred in other countries let's bear in mind that in some countries are actually seeing a 2nd wave or at least. it appears of iran in kazakhstan are examples of this

perhaps the not terribly relevant takes on who is terrorist in person present nevertheless they are only that this disease is certainly not totally under control and it's going to take a long long time for that to be the case but if the government does get it wrong then it could mean a very quick look down again and then it could be even more extreme than the last one could that i'm afraid certain afraid we have to get used to assumption that sings could go backwards very quickly despite the economic pain from if we do have to abandon its safety because the economics of peace but i'm obviously there are questions of safety and sort of connected with the economics to people who've got to live they've got to survive they've got to make money in order to live and so on but nevertheless what we cannot allow this for the disease to get her to control we know more about it now we are more able to treat it now but we certainly have not got it fully under control they profess that david alexander thank you very much for joining us it's a pleasure. to tell miss out. on the campaign as the u.k.

government quickly implements our report into the when josh count on which claims failing to act could mean history repeats itself brought filmmaker. president vladimir putin in his own words tells us how he understands history and the current international system also why everybody apparently hates john bolton as he lost all the way to the bank.

you cannot be both with yet you want. nuclear power become a battleground in the u.s. in vermont people are demanding the shut down of a local plant from my yankee is right now my focus because it's a very dangerous oh no claire power plant the owner is attempting to run the reactor beyond its operational limit this case just sort of puts a magnifying glass on where's the power in this country where is it going is it moving more towards corporate interests or is it more in the idea of a traditional participatory democracy as are power lie with the people this case

demonstrates that struggle in very real ways our struggle on auti. welcome back wind rushed campaign as a calling on the u.k. government to act on failings which led to the immigration scandal or risk them being repeated a petition signed 513-0000 people was delivered to number 10 ahead of this monday's 72nd wind rush anniversary it urges the u.k. government to speed up compensation and implement the recommendations highlighted in the comprehensive lessons learned review the scandal was named after the ship the empire windrush which 1st brought families from caribbean countries to help rebuild post-war britain in 2018 many from that generation were wrongly detained denied legal rights and at least $83.00 deported under the home office hostile environment policy towards migrants it led to the resignation of then home

secretary on bharat for the comprehensive lessons learned review into the scandal sets out 30 recommendations including a full review of the hostile environment policy it also calls for better systems to monitor and evaluate all migration policies and it wants reform of the culture of the department which it says is currently driven by targets and disbelief wendy williams who authored the review has also warned there is a grave risk of the same scandal happening again unless the home office takes sanction a government spokesperson has said the home office is currently considering a report the home secretary has been clear that the mistreatment of the when rush generation by successive governments was completely unacceptable and she will right those wrongs wendy williams recommended to the home office should reflect carefully on the review before responding and we are committed to honoring the request the home secretary has also committed to provide an update to parliament for summer

recess. well meanwhile a filmmaker has been examining the issues which led to the scandal and what can be learned from it. when to rush over the you know what's called now the window i stand on those issues around immigration status and deportations been around for quite a long time it's not a new phenomenon. but what we've seen unfold is this must deportation wholesale deportation of people to jordan about entire planes chartered just to deport people on mass to commonwealth countries or form the commonwealth countries but we're talking about. deporting people who are from the african and asian. or the filmmaker says he made the documentary in memory of those who died during the winter scandal you can watch the full documentary on is britain racist dot com well joining me now is the filmmaker selfish on mark acca film mark thank you for joining us i mean you've studied this in depth how did the government get wind

rushes so wrong. what core interesting me off think for most of us is looking into the law on immigration and really got up and you said you're standing vironment so you really push more people outside i mean we know now from the 1950 s. a lot of those people came to the contrary spacy fight to build up to rebuild the economy of great britain so most of the people when he came in the fifty's they came with the jamaican passport which out of town was upon the commonwealth the for defense lower than has been established over the 1960 s. and ninety's ninety's and subsequently to carson they've got to revoke beasts right for vision in relation to actually have access you not to be part of a great britain it does really lead up to those people be deported when you're standing around and came into place in 2014 i believe well the hostile environment policy was supposed to appeal to the conservative party's core supporters on immigration but surely there was never any intention to target the wind generation

. well not necessarily but same doubts they probably knew exactly what they were doing from our perspective now from listening and hearing some of the testimony and some of the when resonation faces there was definitely a gap here that they actually overlooked and you got to ask this question whether done on purpose and what is the overlooked as i just said well the biggest scandal as we know was so damaging to the u.k. government so it has to act now doesn't it a does a completely and i think up to today i mean i keep speaking to some of the people i've been interviewing for the 2 years of research they still haven't received a compensation and some of the composition of has been given to some of the wind version of russian is very small i mean we know that they were east now enough money to compensate the loss of them once i mean some of them are still being deported and unable to return to the u.k. so there is a lot to be done what concrete changes do you expect to happen. well i'm respected

now i specialist current climate are we in at the moment ducts cif changing time of 3 to compensate people the need to be compensated and also those who are people to in different part of caribbean unable to return to be returned to the u.k. as soon as possible do you think it could happen again yes yes i mean we're looking into i mean you mention about the years for example or the something i can also up an if you don't take lesson for what happened in the 1960 s. and up today we can repeat that expression for the people living in the u.k. from a european country what did you in particular learn from making this documentary. i think i just wanted to give a voice a voice to those who are unable to speak up in the arsons we have different young people that have been deported we of all people have been deported and they are unable to speak and i just wanted to give their voice and also what i wanted to do

it just people to be able to look into these of documentary and say we need to do more than just talking well on the other side of inequality as mrs says britain is one of the best places in which to be black while the former equality and human rights commission head that's trevor phillips he says it's one of the least racist countries in europe what's your thought. and very interesting question i mean obviously as we see we're stricken prarie the black life matters we know that it is not a case that is my personal opinion there's a lot to be done there's been progress i would say there's been progress over the years but this does so much to be done so much and in the meantime do you think the black clothes matter movement will keep up the pressure is very different this time is very very different i think it is not only the blacks life matters that is rising and i think many of the organization is not joining leaning to these fight from racism which is as you know virus and i think it is fair to say shylock i

thank you very much today for sharing your thoughts with us you're welcome thank you thank you very much. well as ministers strike deals with tech firms in a bid to create an effective track and trace up campaign has claimed the government has misled the public about how n.h.s. data related to cope with 19 is being used the open democracy group also says that private firms are set to profit from the data. well the privacy campaign group warns the contracts could pave the way for so-called unprecedented long term months as to the personal health data of millions of n.h.s. users by unaccountable private tech firms they're also warning n.h.s. uses that they could be identified based on their stored health data or while tech companies may also be able to profit from the intellectual property generated as part of the project despite government assurances to the contrary or open democracy house also expressed its concerns about the vague language concerning hugh would be responsible for the safety of n.h.s. users personal data or the data controller that the contract use the group says

that while the government initially claimed n.h.s. england would be in control while contract prove this not to be the case it also says assurances about the anonymity of users data had been removed from an earlier government blog post where n.h.s. england has maintained that all data uploaded to the n.h.s. code 9000 data store will not identify individuals the n.h.s. kopek 1000 data store holds personal data representing aspects of individual patients access to health services including diagnosis treatment and patient management information the personal data held in the n.h.s. kovac 1000 data store is sued on a miser in line with information commissioner's office guidance and best practice and does not identify individual patients. and later i'll be talking to a privacy activist about the government's coded $900.00 data deals with tech giants . a lot about with more news at the top of the hour see you again.

i know team no crowd. no shots.

actually helps because. well. as to. which your thirst for action. hello and welcome to crossed out wrong things to consider i'm usually about president vladimir putin in his own words tells us how he understands history and the current international system also why everybody apparently he's john bolton as he laughs all the way to the back.

to discuss this and more i'm joined by my guest george samuel him would have as he is author of bombs for peace nato's humanitarian war on your was lobbying and in london we prosecute alexander me curiously as a writer on legal affairs as well as editor in chief of the direct com are telling cross up rules in effect that means in germany combine rounds are going to how experienced in london. those of us that are very interested in what's going on in the international system obviously read the article the vladimir putin have published in the national interest it was a kind old let me approach and the real reasons of the 75th anniversary of world war 2 why did you write it and what is its importance now that the 1st reason he wrote it is because it's the 75th anniversary of stop the 2nd world well all the sort of the victory i should say the 2nd well which russia is about celebrate so it's timely but of course it's also timely because it's to reste 1st late these

attacks the top taking place in the west and in some countries in eastern and central europe on the excepts it mainstream understanding of the starts of that of the origins of 2nd will these attempts to equate russia with nazi germany as the region of the 2nd will was used strongly wishes to refute other 2nd because i think he's very concerned the current international developments and he wants to draw parallels between what happened before the 2nd well and what is happening now in other words the collapse of the international system which he feels was unsustainable before the 2nd world war and he's very unsustainable. that's really extremely well said you know george the the article is it's a very long extremely detailed and. my 1st reaction is this is

a historical document all by itself it was only published a few days ago the parallels of the the 1930 s. and what we have right now in the international order is. all in a part fragmenting and this is one of the it is the primary reason other than nazi aggression started the 2nd world war and europe and i think the parallels are really quite me have the united states using sanctions as a political weapon we we have constant pressure being put against iran against and it's whale but has no basis in international law and this and this is a very appropriate one and i'd like to point out to you that the united states is walking away from the entire. spectrum of arms control agreements i think this is very dangerous as well go ahead jim and yes you're absolutely right. and the sanctions regime that the united states has in particular imposed against.