hello and welcome to cross top where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle what is the meaning in worth of history why are there are those so determined to destroy cultural artifacts and rewrite history and sell their understanding of history a true and just bashing of understanding of history is really about 2 things reverend in a warning the culture side we are witnessing rejects both. to

discuss this and more i'm joined by my guest under i mean to make good on your own in moscow is a professor at the moscow state institute of international relations and in oslo we have glenn deeson is an associate professor at the university of south user norway as well as author of russia's geo economic strategy for a greater eurasia telling us up close and that means you can jump in anytime you want and i was ok i was going to also let you know in preparing for this program i was and were inside eden has ideas of orientalism started popping into my mind because orientalism was away from the christian west to define itself against the other other civilizations and people but it seems like orientalism as understood by slate has taken a very bizarre twist because now it is about self racism self loathing and this. is

where we've gotten to because there's no there's no replacement for the history that they're destroying it's a boy and that may be intentional or not but it certainly creates conditions for creating a new past without being anchored or restrained and past. this is true that identities are usually created in opposition to someone so you should be with say the explore other west greatest identity opposition to for example east or as a contrast what do you not see with a lot of these people is they their identity they view the other or essentially their own culture don't finish and so as you correctly point out they want to free themselves from their own past which is by definition a revolutionary moment moment now this is very problematic because. history it legitimizes that a medical institutions of the present and it also lays the foundation for a common shared identity and this is exactly their purpose it is to denounce their

own history because they did that the country was founded on this crimes this great crimes. then they have to address this in order to to prove the present. that's one of denouncing the past that this might seem reasonable because it will also civilization you know very dirty us and one should deal with this and indeed that's probably why deceive themselves are so gorgeous. so once you recognise the wrongdoings of the past for us it will be a specialist slavery and genocide of the native americans it's things that are reasonable to address this however what you now see with these people especially other in their own history the problem is that there's actually tearing down statues they're not saying their own history it likes this this is a new and because any country to really a semester relies on history if we don't have it you reject. legitimacy of your own the situations that seems odd to me what they want to do cause. it's all systemic

risk is tearing down everything and also there is sharing this calm ability for the whole nation was there also argue this corrupted by the. other problem when you do this is now you don't have any in any situations and more legitimized by the past and furthermore 'd the u.s. can do any great into mere geographical location where it's just happen to be populated by random people so you can't really have a nation with this history which is why revolutionary movements. noria who are a terrorist us to some denounce their own history it is a very dangerous practice you know underneath it and one of the interesting things as i said as i said in my introduction me history in many ways at least how most people understand it how they perceive that is is usually something that we revere a person and. a moment in time and sometimes it's a warning about what can go wrong in our history and how we can learn from it but

if we didn't take out the reverence and the warning at the same time you're left with a boy and how can you forgive you don't have a clear understanding of the past even if the process is very painful and let's face it most similar is asians will now say every civilization has painful moments that it was in gestation very few what would become so i mean if you take reverence and a warning bell then when he history bore ahead. i i have no i like another definition of history i didn't want to run i. formulated in your program. history. is today's politics transparent into the past you know. it's very sad what we're now witnessing in especially united states interest 2nd american revolution some commentators are writing this way and describing what's going on. a lot of

people who lived in slammer it they know how big you know at least in their are right quote way to the white but they considered themselves and that they are still in a kind of slavery it day didn't already come. absent the day 150 years or 200 years ago and that's right they don't consider the history of this country in a way as many whites are considering for doom the figures that don't rich they are cheering down defacing this are not their heroes this are the people who you know a president who didn't consider them as a human being and didn't write for them these guys have no place in the history of

it how do you read where do they live. that's a prayer for me but don't we get into a situation where they knew did it by getting grady they had that drawing that how good how can we think about slavery and oppression and if we don't historical record of the correct meaning of that because if the people want to take down the confederates that in their own communities that's their business ok that is perfectly fine but jim mandate the end of history or that history should not be remembered is a very dangerous thing and i want to talk about what the bolsheviks did to russian history and let eventually came into it in russia when wanted to feel that. i think in this instance russia does provide some lessons in terms of revolution or in wish and if initially if you tear up the future you tear up the past because you don't want to corrupt the presence you want to create

a new present which looks contaminated by. ah so it's in russia obvious that the bolsheviks they so everything in society yes i mean being corrupted by capitalism so the initial bolsheviks they really did what they could to tary thing up so everything from the family the church nationhood. as a everything was a reflection of this exploitation of capitalism so they pulled it all up and. mainly because it was seen as being exploitation and also authoritarian however once this in came to recognize so at once there's no legitimacy based on the past they became even more aligned on brutality to create a new society and a new this actually community that's wasn't defined by history anymore and again this focus on next taking out those who had exploited them again but the horrible things for example against a call oxen this. they said the find themselves by revolution and this continues perish and i think that. this is again something that russia is preoccupied with

today because when the soviet union fell apart again to some extent this was another revolutionary moment moment and had to deal with how do we address 7 decades of our history and again in the west we keep saying you're just have to give a blank and condon and the nation just denounced him i think this is of course very very dangerous because then you don't have a shared identity you don't have any legitimacy for your institutions so this is something i think you think for the russians how do you deal with a problematic and personally i don't think they should denounce this soviet era they should have a new institution look at the horse the crimes which were committed and take those out and still recognize the good and i think that's what they've been trying to do so for example you know they russia now condemns you know for example the crimes of stalin it was committed in cutting at the same time they keep goal is to salvage what they can from history what was done right so again you can look to our state you know the world war 2 history when to save europe from the ashes from you know

scientific achievements as a lot. the soviet era you know. provide for a common identity and legitimacy and i think that's very important and we haven't really appreciated that in the west to challenge and i think that's what the americans now are also after recognize that yes how much a person had slaves but if you don't else i'm all together including a good idea that we lose something very important i mean you can you condemn the entire project underneath go ahead jump in yeah i think that this. comparison is not correct because you know what is the problem. that in today's america when i 1st came to america. in 90 and 90. i found that this is the most non integrated society in the world because blacks were outside of society every

ethnic and racial group was living in its own emilio and without having though formally de hat you know there are rights in workplaces but they never saw russia live a day they're isolated and when a melting pot shift to work. america turned out to be that isolated island. ended little underneath there. are just just all the other bitter vicious very important gains and until now blacks can see they're dead they are out of society and this is exactly the case that's why tearing down this white slave owners they are trying to reassess and to give their own interpretation of the history and the good they considered that they are not in total part. of this country against

our dear friend who of a not their history it what does it mean to have another history their representation in statutes on descriptors their representation in current columbus in history literature bull curriculums in history literature bullshit in different places when 1st time i came to a bird go in one day 9 days i was there miss run one of the professors from russia he said listen it's very strange things happening this. blacks and endurance are telling to get composition of professors is a to present white 20 percent black but composition of students 80 percent blacks then isn't and 20 percent white would need to vote at just

this year not structured oh ok so we need more social engineering that's what you're saying that's very dangerous we have a break before we go to the break underneath. that thread. i would like to point out underneath your here rep of liberal each other my friend i'd like to end the 1st part of the program with a reminder to you that a black man was elected president of the united states twice and it was white people that voted for him to assume office so i think we have to now go to the extremes right here or i'm going to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion.

welcome to max kaiser financial survival guide. looking forward to your pension down. yonks this is what happens to pensions in britain. you watch kaiser report. we go to work some straight home. secret prisons are not usually what comes to mind when thinking about europe however even the most prosperous can be deceived within this 0 zone there were 2 view houses were allowed to leave prison was located only cia people had

access to the story for investigators she held the uncovered the darkest dealings of the secret services but i mean it's a name thing you graded nor in thought or nonsense. you see maybe a sore knee yes or no for. crying for justice on r.t. . welcome across up we're all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're talking about culture sun. ok let me go back to the glen in oslo you know it seems to me that this is another attempt. by a very sad to which group of people it's out it's not the oppression of the working class it's really it's coming from academia and it's this this ideology that has

been so hot for decades now i remember when i was at university in the early 1990 s. and now it seeped into the political system here and this is an attempt. to create a new man or excuse me i knew her. well the road record of that is pretty poor i would say look at the french revolution the bolshevik revolution a little bit pol pot did in cambodia i mean the record is quite for disastrous destructive but it seems to me because these people want to destroy history they don't want to learn from history go ahead plan. well again as there must at definition no memory of illusion again that economists wanted to create communist men liberated from his own past and that's a kind of what you're seeing now so well you see this attempt to create this new western man liberated from his own you know flow past with of course racism being a key part of it however underneath argued i would disagree in terms of the

roach because usually i would argue that this kind of revolutionary it could seem reasonable when when there was a side the country reform itself and i agree i think identified this problem this yes a geisha to a large extent we're still exist however if you look at the numbers it looks like americas i could say was a race is capable of reforming itself if you look at all a lot of from marriage between races steering inclusion. and its use and hold and this is all i would say seems to be pointing in the right direction so i think there is room for improvement now in terms of the approach again or again or recognizing a lot of the same issues are you when you came to the u.s. in the ninety's i didn't get to keep problem or the disagreement is how you see society improving and you have 2 different parts you know we call it the or you equity they call it essentially saying like blacks whites asians should all be

treated the same and over time differences will start to change himself of course it will always have some cultural difference as the problem with a quickie is you demand equal outcome right away and for movies with as example are you know 80 percent white or fessor you have to take into account if your recent demographic changes as well and once you do this it would be your specialist saying well we need less rights for example more blacks and then you begin the social engineering where everyone is judged based on the color of their skin based on their gender and then i guess you will have the opposite outcome because once you have you know a black life matters and you will get on to the bright. my last letter as well and you can have this right wing identity politics which you're now on the left so i think some dangerous routes to go down so again and also it's difficult because you have this racial groups we should just mention blacks and asians they're very different in the us for example blacks will get higher scores to get well will be

easier for them to get into universities asians actually perform better than whites and they actually get punished for being a sions so you really need and this is a very big unfair things are so awful iran is judged based on their skin under gender sexual orientation etc saying we need to call to iran has the same opportunity the outcome might be the same as opposed to do the social engineering where you try to have everything. the outcome being exactly the same your summaries have to be pulled out of yourself because. it is a dangerous path they're living underneath the need to think this is all based on big demolished g ok equity you know it in terms of what glenn was just saying there you know eat the more you're a victim of the of the system of history the more that you're elevated well and that's not a way to create a. society that is functional i mean it may make you feel good it may make you you know birches signally and all that but it in any function your functionality of

that it is it simply. it creates tribes lose a share and read and people that feel that they're not part of the process so i am i think that you know this ideology that's coming out of the universities it's basically cultural marxism and really it really jumps aside the real issue that's going on in its class because there are millions and millions of poor people of color and white people at the same time and this ideology is dividing them when actually a whole lot more in common then and then in the elites really want them to know what lives matter very very convenient for the all the guards that run the economy and the politicians that are in there on the wire. i think that because of political correctness in american society there was never ever especially during this last several big 8 open discussion about

race relations and the problem is that everybody is afraid of telling a spade a spade you know because not but it is telling blacks that and they had enormous success during the dish especially 50 years when i was in new york in the 5th on unaired 25th when it was 50th anniversary of john underwrite political rights desegregation and all this kind of things but even at that time a lot of leaders of black community. people like l. sharpton and many others they were considering that nothing happened no progress still there if big difference in economy still is a big difference in different areas ratios mundo this kind of think but nobody was

telling that black left matt there is a radical racist organization because they don't consider that right or life matter and just what what is the danger in current situation in that one day which such a you know such a pleasure on stretching their feet who like to just their feet and their shoot this could create their reaction on behalf of all white people and they can create their own organisation white light matter and a lot of them are not happy to see how black the left metter organization is drank to human. and destroy or do you carry dick which was created by white american tradition america dish to get depressed problem and get close divide 8 in american society and that is the ideology and the message of it let me go to

glenn right now i mean what that one of the most important outcomes of the civil rights movement was the voter participation so go it's go look at all of the cities that are almost all the cities that have been bernie over the last few weeks run by democrats very often by african-american mayors. who least sheaves i mean they they got the rightfully got the vote the promise of the constitution of equality in participation in public life and then you have all of these cities that are so badly run and now they want to turn around and it's all because of racism which is absolutely nonsense it's bad governance and i would say bad governments it was allowed to happen because that's politically correct and comfortable and again i will not repeat i will not move away from the issue of last week when you look at the issue of how the country is basically poor right now poverty doesn't it doesn't

address attract itself just to one race it's all races and when we don't look at this these inequalities it's people like black lives let me in the democratic party and the media and amazon and all the rest of it they love to play the race card because it lacks of late really is happening in the. vote there is that argument it's more attractive because it doesn't touch on the economics because. well again that's a mystery for what one can argue that the race issue can be reformed within the current political system they cannot make the question isn't it more difficult to see at the mechanisms for redistributing wealth they're kind of gone and the wealth continues to concentrate more and more obvious that there is an issue are. class in the united states with the middle class weakening very quickly i guess our policymakers it instead i'm dealing really are forming the system from within which is very difficult because they rely on the dollars and it's very difficult to get

anything done i guess instead of dealing tackling this hard issue easier to it's like saying oh you know look at this policeman here he did this or let's separate bathrooms for the trannies or you know whatever they're actually want to go it is identity politics i guess it's cheap it doesn't cost anything so there has been there is it is that argument that you you call it something else it doesn't mean there's not race it raise issues in united states how many of them are clear and you know you have races our limbs in every country us morocco you know germany china they're everywhere so my my my point is simply that i don't think i think it can be reform the race it's issues i just think the economics are the ones. getting worse and worse and but i think it's also natural expression of the polarization of society has gone through you began to show by talking about that would say then this other ring and i think what you see not just in the us and other western countries as well is that the other ng sublists become the political opposition has

gone from being political opposition to especially the enemy oh so this in britain as well with cameron calling you know the leader of the opposition party threats to national security and now this is common language in the us as well i think this polarization once you see your own political opposition your own people as opponents you go down this very destructive us and that's what you see in the us now as a low with the for example by class matter taking down the statues of founders of the country which then makes makes that you know especially the more it conservative american seeing likewise matter as their enemy and when they cause i was for example want to keep the statues they see them as holding systemic racism and you know perpetual exploitation of them so that both are perceived shudras enemy and i guess a racist them all. e.t.c explanation and it's the easiest one to play ok because it it's so imbedded into the gulf underneath it seems to me they were going reverting it now we're seeing. a very perverse calls her

a new segregation dividing people and this is going backwards in time all right and again with the fundamental issue here is what is legitimate. and what's going on right now is making that very very blurry go ahead and many yeah i think that the most important thing which i would like to emphasize at this segment is that practically aim of this kind of radical moment. is the created pearman and sense of guilt for white before the blacks 1st and 2nd day are openly organizing to the moment of the year no paying reparations of days victims of slavery several trillion i don't know how many dollars rich means this is gone and the

deeper unfortunately it this is the most dangerous thing ok gentlemen i have to jump in here with run out of time i want to thank our guests in moscow and also and i want to thank you for your still watching us here archy see you next i'm remember us of course.

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that's the norm with the least you could see your new system i just got out was that the new music with the voice will start to bite i mean that it will go for 2 to put the last back to your kid or the evil new least. that ended the market see year view and want to be spilled onto it since some man did it oh my skit i'm mean it's all in the.