when. the low end welcome to cross talk were all things were considered on peter lavelle unilateral an explosion of occupied territory is eagle under international law but this is exactly what israel intends to do when it comes to the west bank on this edition of the program we discussed why israel is doing this international reaction and the fate of the palestinians.

to discuss this and more i'm joined by my guest ramsey route in seattle he's a journalist and author and in tel aviv we have gideon levy he is a columnist for products are actually process of rules in effect that means you can jump to any time you want and i was ok let me go to getting in 1st in tel aviv i've been reading that this process of preparing the israeli population and the international community but the annexation of the west bank they're calling it applying solvent t.v. why in the world are the germans sounds very orwellian to me and the way i've been my research of this prior to our our gathering here is that it's kind of ambiguous exactly what applying sovereignty is what percentage of the west bank it's very unclear is this all done intentional to be confusing or is there's clearly showing some kind of trepidation before they make the decision go ahead. so far that corner

thing or kind of names the real name we should be the cleric and. there's no other they larry because as you know they have no intention to have any rights yes being in those territories their penchant for os the what is not yes there are divisions there we use that talk to legs and do so by the end of the day they would do it it's. very simple we are dealing with it. i'm not sure it's going to help. you know i don't know how it's supposed to be in this economy old go there because it's not often i feel is that or should go oh. this is let this thought bait to washington go on that i'm not sure much really

come out of me it's very sort of with no i mean the combi. 'd holo because there are a short simple rules but by the end of the day we know. the history of years ago we don't need anything to ration then exchange should have been there at the green line and either read the there there. is the temper or it's or done or. you know ramsi me what is the point in doing this is this ideologically driven is insecurity driven is it personal ambition driven i mean well what is the point i mean because it already has you know quite light quality on the west bank rang a slow is a dead letter has been for a very long time and we have a president trump come into office and what i understand maybe i'm wrong but netanyahu really never talked about any station until trunk was prez. go ahead rems

well that's correct there's been a lot of talk in israel itself about annexation but that's kind of like progressively been taking this with the kind of the fringes of the right right wing and the ultra right movements and not until trump came to power as you said that israel's you know understanding of annexation and the opportunity that they found in trump and or in particular being in these positions they felt it's really quite unprecedented and it was like almost like. like some sort of a political bonanza happening where everything that israel has requested annex in the golan heights and and expanding the settlements and doing whatever they wanted beseeched does are. in really like this it was it is really wish this is missing the when of that is what he has been met with complete and utter

american war and. this is what's been going on and annexation i think is really more related more to this what even. israel politics than anything else we know that netanyahu has been quite. struggling for quite some time now i 3 elections trying to get a mandate to stay out of present to stay out of poor so he needed to do everything he needed every trick out of his bad in order for him to appeal to the tory yes right wing constituency in israel and sadly when i say the right wing constituency in israel i'm not talking about the fringes i am talking about mainstream society as well and yes all of the administration is look it's all right wing now i mean if you're just to what degree it's right wing and that's how i understand all

absolutely absolutely. peter i mean we're we're reaching a point in which very few israelis even i think if i had with so-called left even though i have my own interpretation of what is constitutes a left in israel and what doesn't and these are this is going to be the the move that is going to end all doubts regarding his leadership and this is why he committed to this and has given has said it might go through it might not but i personally don't think it really matters so much because look what happened in jerusalem in 1008 israel annexed yours and then it changed nothing we palestinians our relationship to our city hasn't changed the international community is deficient of israeli israeli occupation indoors and hasn't changed and nothing is going to change whether that station were through or not you know guinea and if an exception in one form or another because what i understand there's up to 3 different plans that could be pushed what is the fate of the palestinians i mean

are they going to be stateless what kind of what about the palestinian authority i mean you know all of israel's goals are being focused on even if they're in big you was a bit callous to me and her never spoken about in any of this i can tell go ahead. that's that's the core of the problem that nobody counts over the asks that know what the it really cares about and there were namely the united states and europe and more do war is just silence continue was your patient but don't bother us was an exceptions that's the message of the world to israel 'd and who are the victims the victims are obviously the palestinians you know we have believed now we 2nd generation of people who are living under this brutal occupation without any perspectives without any basic rights and there is only question we

should raise why would any israeli and young american and european one who has stimulants and their right to be equal citizens of any country in their words we need be it be nation state or stinnett's that do they all deserve the right that any other citizen in their were deserves or their dorms to leave as 2nd grade citizens for ever i want an audience i want to know from these sort of gum about these are the obvious what do you expect them to do and what are you offering them because by the end of the day we know that we know the answer is no space oh didn't you know what that israel is demanding of the palestinians would be acceptable or meant zionism ok because it because it without that they need it can no longer make any claim of being a democratic state because they're occupying people that have no rights and no boni

rights to meet you you can't be how he resigned is the reason to be democratic at the same time that he's a wannabe that they can't get around. absolutely one of the mean issues and i think that's one of the misperceptions that the israelis how who are the israeli government rather house. is that 25 years plus of this or also the process has created when the peace process has that created the new culture in palestine and your clients and. people who are willing to sign off on anything to keep their privilege and to keep their status and they were under the impression that those people that's class or so foreign to the palestinian authority but the culture that so morphed along with the president or 3rd they have that kind of power over the palestinian people take us wherever they want us to go and that's where israel is sadly mistaken that cigar to become undergone is of the nature of

the compromises that are certain as a new palestinian not even mahmoud abbas possibly crops and this is something that israel is going to learn i think in more and more in coming months and years and it's to me and if all our new look for compromising needs are on the status of doors and ignore nor on there and not just the issue of sovereignty but the issue of rights they don't see themselves as lists and i know exactly what a good un has you know meant when he was if you know the question that you wanted to ask there's a way to government and that is what you want me to do you know as a city and it was just that question oh relationship with our land hasn't changed our relationship our understanding of our rights hasn't changed our resistance therefore we're continuing all forms in all forms and all means necessary in order for us to achieve our rights and to finally be able to assert ourselves as

a relevant art as opposed to this party that is being more than all the time you know getting one of the interesting things it you know i guess everyone's forgotten it because it is so easily to forget is the deal of the century ok mr kushner is a fantasy but you know if there were. at least imbedded in it i mean obviously my i looked at some of the documents released it was very strange it was about economics and investment and who would pay for me again i was more or less but i mean even within christmas plan there is a sense of some kind of our city and state i mean this is the white house the state department could get on a give some cold feet here because basically beach the obvious engineering with the deal the sentries all thrown out the window the annexation proceeds go ahead it. could only way to ship is the question to leave in this kind of state as it's

operating. it's obviously not another form of. i mean even when we were speaking about this they would be in the $67.00 borders in those 22 percent which here are the what is the incident dreaming to get of their original lead ins and then it was never meant to be an equal state like any other state in the world you know basically. arm the currency the 3 x. airports all you know all those things which i saw no more of who was shot of the mission is never off with the palestinians even the more was more generous offer us that they get out they go out and their voices seeing that we should really realize that israel never had any intention who

made a creation of a palestinian state. creation says that unfortunately is off the table and we should talk about equal rights because that's the only solution no canada. you know gentlemen we're going to go to a short break you know. continue our program on israel's possible endings nation member the west bank state. the world is driven by shaped.

the dares thinks. we dare to ask. all the club became a household name now states and other world over. washington ceased to be a city that. tended toward the compromised by what is a sure national interest people talk about gridlock in congress you hear people talk about. the rights the radicals get in both bodies. this rapidly. lydia's solid bipartisan centrist approach to politics both domestic and foreign. dates that's for

sure. welcome back across all things considered i'm cute enough. mind you we're just talking about israel's an exaggeration of the west bank. ok let's go back to ramsey in seattle gideon mention at the very end of the 1st part of the program here i mean i was brought up understanding how us i mean israel conflict through western and western media ice through the israeli lobby in washington and they always told us about the 2 state solution and i can't recount the number of presidents that made their big to do it that is gideon said that was

never really a possibility it was never believed in whatsoever flow was a shell game ok and i don't think the palestinian authority acquitted. at this be very honest that. he was a payoff in many ways but you know how do i mean in the united states right now you have that you think trump will do more or less anything for israel at least up until this point because i strongly believe that he sees no downside ok move the embassy to jerusalem ok so what if it only helps me with my donors in with my base ok. trump will give back the golan heights as if he had the right to give anything back ok i mean this is not what plays in domestic politics in the united states because. very very rarely in mainstream media did you ever get the other side there is no sir other side is only israel's side and people the state of the palestinians it's just it is a asterisk it's

a whip and but they have thrown in they have been dancing around a 2 state solution for decades right now with this antics ation that's a dead letter how do they get explain that head brams well this i think that's really israel's challenge israel ready to go all of this the rules of the city. lucian's and say we have reached the end game we are ready to move beyond it and of course it's a ruse it's a carrot that has been that getting in the face of a mysterious for such a long time the game has been played so well not just by the americans and their opinions and this weight is mine but also by other fellow arts and by the listener itself it's explains it's piers it's corruptions or it was by this idea that mr abbas will go to the united nations when given this iris beach will come back with a stake and everything is going to be ok but sadly over time the transition to that state became the status quo so we are just sitting there waiting for that state

that never arrived and now israel built that this is the time to move beyond this and consolidate its power and say it's over no states will now shape the future of this region in the way that with our interest or not and that's where the main question comes in strategically for the long run is israel rid the region that in game or not personally i don't think that israel is strategically ready for that because it could not get any want to also aside from mr trump and and streetman and couple of others to agree not even within the u.s. congress itself that is agreement in fact the majority the vast majority of the democratic party are against this so the might be up to a shock and maybe he'll have moved a little bit too soon to. get into it's a very good point and it's interesting as and i'm sure both of you follow american politics of trying this for something been the baby the resistance is against it ok

and in this way it kind of works a any interesting way ok i mean because trump has been pushing you so much gideon what are the possibilities i want to ask ramzi this what is the possibility of a 3rd intifada if we see this move move forward. i think the palestinians are right now in one of their weakest moments in history ever since $48.00 they're looking at leadership that divided and above who are there looking spirit of struggle. as you know turning at least once a week to the occupied territories i don't believe politicians i just mean the grassroots the direct licked him some of the occupation and you see that this generation is lost i'm very sorry to say so but this generation is lost israel succeeded in the 2nd intifada really to crush the. and the part

of the leadership was killed part of the leadership is in jail and their own leadership is older than old fashioned and i think we'll have to wait for another generation to wake up and created your reality right now they might be some violence there might be some sporadic actions individual actions you will not see a real uprising. same question here around what is the possibility what would be possible reaction of israel starts officially declaring who were left my carriage and say publicly i disagree with your on this despite the fact that they agree with him pretty much on everything else he said. i have written the history of the 1st innocent intifada and the 2nd intifada in my books and there is one thing that it was not his that was interesting in the father's don't happen as a result of mobile as a organization we don't have it as it is as an outcome of an existing strength in

the country respond to the weakness exist within the palestinian society so if others popular uprisings do not deliberate planned for say but rather their usefulness in palestinian history has always been to respond to the existing weakness of the palestinian leadership the feeling of betrayal by arab neighbors and brotherhood and the feeding for the needed that people need to some degree responsibility it is extremely difficult peter to come to pin point a date and time and consider and the situation in which uprisings are possible the palestinian people are very resourceful and they have incredible amount of energy and it could at any time surprise us by something and here's the other thing if i there's also a leader leadership if you look at the 1st lesson in if i though it is so good then you need a ship that was created in alice i was it is all of that. and so forth so i although

we cannot sleep till we're with the palestinians aboard and in what form they were aboard i think that would serve as us because the timing is always in their hands getting you to what degree do the serval or is hold israeli politics hostage because i mean recently netanyahu met was learners and i mean they're the max. unless they want everything all and now and netanyahu understands lisi and you have to give them this he has billions things survival ok that's probably the nicest thing i can say about the prime minister but he has to look over his shoulder also with the united states because if the united states doesn't give him some kind of tacit. approval he's going to be on very shaky ground and he knows it but he's is he has held hostage and downs and other political of figures being held hostage by him that the son learns from one to 1010.

no that's a long history didn't start it was that the neo the set lists are the strongest pressure group in as a society and they made or governments and i don't blame them i blame the governments who surrendered and it started it was designed this live it's not that who's labor and delivery is to be accused about the settlements project much more than he could then have you know he just continued booklet labor in labor for so many years the settlers very devoted very very powerful know how to blackmail they are all risen satisfied if you're all for them jordan and iraq they will demonstrate against because what about libya and when they get libya they will again we are very very angry at the government also there. for them the skies the libyans unfortunately they're facing indifference of the

majority of this very society who has no interest in the settlement this project with mcbean they couldn't care less about this but this apathy on the one hand and their devotion and they are really without any border they use or the most cynical power for gay power gains in order to achieve their goals and we have put me they doing very successfully you know ramsey again and it's a wild card now and that's you know who's government's going to be a president and a trumpet ministration as well but i think it's quite clear that the european union the member countries we're here in union will absolutely reject and in the vast majority of the members of the united nations general assembly won't condemn this year israel's art and condemn on an international bodies and it has washington's

back but as is getting. as pointed out it's a little bit more dicey because as you well know living in america the polarization of power thinks there is probably the most extreme in our lives and so this is going to be very delicate tiny and just getting him pointed out i mean he just may get cold feet and just go have it so so even if the european union take a strong position on this sadly they are they are not going to back up that was a sham with anything practical on the ground i know that there are initiatives here in the us congress by building this democratic party congressman who are trying to astrally create a degree of accountability if israel moves forward with this israel the american support the $1000000000.00 that are given to israel just willy nilly every year it would have to go back there would be conditions are so forth and so on i doubt that anything practical would come out of it although i appreciate that effort i

actually don't think that the europeans have the backbone to come and actually real conditions and pressure israel so in other words the issue is now largely in the hands of the trumpet ministration and then. they will move forward that this is strategically inefficient but let me just remind everyone something yet is that the jordan valley which will be included largely in this annexation has been practically you know just why kind of practical next as well the last major deal the jordan valley is inaccessible so aniston has it can actually go there right so so even if it was the biggest city in farmer the palestinian workers hts you're with an ordinary person and it's a ship will not change much on the ground the soldier is a soldier a settler is a settler i mean the fact that all of these settlers have been living in there is that's in itself a by lation of international law and deeply that's also an annexation and with mr.

this had been dealing with this for so many years yelling at the international community these look what is happening israel is fighting. over how. our should be and they did so damageable out of it i don't think anything practical will come out of this and station we were not my only hope is that this is going to be the last nail in the coffin of the so-called peace process so we can move forward with a new plan and you think you know you strategy perhaps a one state solution in which we can all co-exist as equals and well we've run out of time gentlemen always like to say is that if western audiences particularly american audiences and voters knew the truth they would certainly feel very very differently about it but that's the media and the political class they drive but i want to thank my guests in tel aviv and in seattle and what i think my viewers are watching us you're are you see you next time remember.

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sore need for. crying for justice on. fire max kaiser this is the kaiser report this is the 4th of july special that's why stay for you look so great wearing red white and blue red white and blue and purple of course is the shoes that blends it all together we're in a purple state here called north carolina which is a blending of the democrats and the republicans you know as we're getting ready for another year a year of basically tearing each other apart again there's not we have a lot of independents but not much cohesion you might say cohesion index is off the charts as the economists would say and i say.