alone while come 2 worlds apart the u.s. claim off exceptionalism supremacy has long been a strong irritant to the russians especially coupled with the suffering and the humiliation brought about by the collapse of the soviet union fast forward 30 here is how does most of the tearing down of statues the revision of not just history but national identity currently underway across the pond we'll discuss that i'm now joined by the director of the carnegie moscow center mr training that's always a great pleasure talking to you thank you very much for taking the time of leisure thank you. now i know that you are a big book warm as. the shelves behind your back i'm pretty sure that you've already have both your own perhaps the pleasure of reading john bolton's latest account of his 16 months in the white house what impression did it make when you.

well. a couple of impressions one impression is that. it seemed to me that mr bolton. male come to the white house with the idea of a cup yes we taking down there are things that he heard during his in stem to the white house so that when he exits that famous building he could make a lot of money and i found it. a bit disturbing. i think he shared with the world much more than. people thought he should have sharon so that's one impression another impression was that. the book is very long on detail short on reflection so it's all about dialogues it's all about he said he is such a. human presence. but it is certainly

a little reflection about the momentous changes to happen a within the united states within the city of washington i want to add that almost every self respecting american politician or our official has a book or few under his or her bow but what this is indeed so striking about this particular. book is that it comes at a very high stakes time for the united states the pandemic is not over yet the economy still bogged down the products are still going on that actions are 4 months away that still feel like a suspense thriller to you i'm talking about the events in america or is it already you know i fully flies disaster movie or catastrophe movie because the united states after all still is the world's number one and number 2 nuclear superpower and the restraints on the use of those weapons. i diminishing. well there is

a convergence of crises in the united states there's a clearly a political crisis the. house. started. and digitally started immediately after the. previous presidential election has not just drunk its deprogrammed so you have that political crisis you have a social crisis crisis very much fuelled by crass inequality you know b.s. days you also have an ideological crisis liberalism. has been going to be fanciful very. surprisingly for the rebels themselves that conservatism is on the rise they call the populist whatever. and then of course there is a foreign policy crisis this basically means that. the united states.

is done with making the world look like the united states and it has to adjust to the outside world so you have to redraw us you have to flip flip quite ruthless your core in foreign policy and big weight and that's what's happening it's it's it's interesting times but as always living in interesting times maybe a little bit too much fun i'm sure with a with me that bolton paints a picture of a very chaotic very impulsive administration trumping ministration in his in his book where everything is. decided in a haphazard south serving manner with very little deference to national interests and what i wanted to ask if that's just trump or do you think that's a fitting matter for for the political america as a whole because he mentioned that this crisis in the range in age with trunk chomp . to a large extent is a reaction to the forces that are fighting him well luby. for

a dollar trump became a household name really now states and the world over. washington ceased to be a city that. tended toward a compromised by partisanship national interest people talked about gridlock in congress for years people talked about. their rights the radicals in both parties so this unraveling. pretty solid bipartisan centrist approach to politics most domestic and foreign. dates trump that's for sure so there's something about the the character of the president the white house is about the president the white house as the president and the president stylist it is something that the rest of the white house actually have to adapt. about it's not just that they're you look out.

in washington and people talk about the state department that's. some people are so. paralyzed to have. any department your take. any general whatever problems of justice you have those issues need be not as much concentrated as they are going to the white house because a bigger presence but still that's that's that's the that's the impression that a lot of observers close observers think from washington d.c. now both ends name peeve with trungpa is that he doesn't have any grand strategy and that he doesn't listen to experience and i wonder if that's if that makes so much of a difference and then american context because tom's predecessor president obama was a very studious that he had the largest national security council on the record if

he supposedly many people believe. had a great vision and yeah dad did not prevent from major disaster as miscalculations and on the african continent in the european affairs etc trying to his credit hasn't done any of that and that is the expertise really matter and is that only a matter of trying to times or is it them more continuous problem as far as the united states is concerned no i think as usual there's an element of both i think that president obama was sucked way perhaps the most intellectual leader that the united states has had recently and yet president obama and that is very evident from his very long interview. trikes you as a much more long very much a person who. rejected by the elites in washington he was too intellectual

you was to respond without elite and many of his actions all rather his inaction places like libya places like syria. were reasons for a very striking criticism that obama was subjected to people who started talking about obama being being eased out of the middle east by vladimir putin you know all that stuff which is not really square very well with reality so. listening to experts yeah a leader would need to listen to experts but a leader. should not be should not allow himself to be led by by by the nose by the experts mr training you still seem to have a lot of respect and empathy for president obama as i hear people do but

respectfully. well the office of the presidency. that's for sure your strategy was a loner somebody who didn't. realize he's great vision but if we actually look at the makings of their recent russia gate scandal it's pretty avid and that it was driven primarily by the obama people and these people went on c.n.n. and saying one thing and this same day in closed hearings they would say something completely opposite i mean trump is often accused of being a liar and it's true that he's very casual in his speech but don't you think that there is a different kind of deception of in the obama administration intellectual moral ethical deception that. you know sometimes since it's even more painful than you know seeing somebody who's just bragging about his achievements. well you know . frankly. much of one. do not take sides in the

american domestic strife round here and we are just analyzing it i mean right. yeah absolutely to me they're all american politicians deception is. all well they're only are you not because a lot of you have to deceive you have you because you are more in the public domain if you're on the not just the political culture than you are in some other collector you know and then did you see them in your place in these one art but when you are publicly claiming something against another major power and denying the same thing in closed hearings that's that's lying full stall that's not you know trump made some assumptions or mistaking some facts in his that's actually a very deliberate effort. is someone who is really. who is very you doesn't care about political correctness but her chrissy is

is a must in public politics. you know the united states more broadly in the west that's a more you cannot. cannot. achieve anything unless you have practiced it on to a very fine degree. and i will tell you that since the us they say is a country of lawyers you always have to watch your town you always have to watch what you're saying so you need be saying is that i mean you heard him on the only television her language when you were in the los hearings but don't tally it but i mean we know from recent revelations that people like susan rice were publicly lying through their teeth i mean like it's there is no it adding temper taishan they were stating one thing in public and out a thing absolutely different thing. you know look i don't look for morals in public . anyway but. you know and i'm a not well i'm a foreign analyst and as

a foreigner analyst i look at these guys and what i see is that they're hearing their nation or. that's a degree. of vehemence. and degree of hatred. those 2 camps is just now still nominal we never had anything like that in the united states since the civil war. so that is that is a variant going to nod now i'm not engaged i'm shocked when i'm thinking is down to me it suggests that the country is going through its most severe political crisis in maybe in a 100 years yeah i agree with you it's a very septic shock and i think. that's an example of throwing the baby out with the bathwater bad person turning let's take a very short break now i will continue this conversation after

a few moments. the one guy appear he was a knave found him literally dead like this standing up. a guy appeared his girlfriend they were found in their part of that they just got. cold and they were dead for like 3 days holding each other this wall so people who have lost their lifes early today she get this is from akron. dacron is better known as the myth capital and i'm high and it's a city where the number of drug addicts keeps growing every year. i came up when i was 14 in my whole family were drug addicts. throughout much of the 1990 s.

and beyond and the doctors were encouraged and in some cases incentivized to overprescribe. i mean enough. you sedate a small country where you should also hear about people by all that's there good stuff man we gotta go good dad don't go crazy future unless you know what you're doing. and they're succumbing to no one after the next. op no t.v. no crowd. no shots no. action well to be. extra no to these 2. points your thirst for action.

welcome back to worlds apart it's been me treat training director of the carnegie moscow center mr training just before the break we were talking about bolton's book and one of the most. cynical i thing at assertions in the book was that mr trump is so straightforward and so dump that the president of this country of logic and putin can play him like a female and the funniest part of this all is that mr bolton himself that hands up providing the music for playing because obviously any intelligence i would assume would love to have such an internet portrait of a president to hopefully many pilate and use it or exploit it in their dealings with that person. well i don't think you can actually exploit. that kind but i

think what you can do is you can understand a little bit better how those guys are dealing when no one is watching and of course you do not need to take a book trace really opens book is a political book it's a political bombshell it's something that. was set off the best time in terms of politics in terms of the money you also was going to make and the book the book lies. deceit and tricks your take everything it's based now you will but this this is this is an interesting chris you're cruel. first evidence about what's going on now speaking about. the russian president's ability to play a fiddle i think there is an interesting fact or assertion at least in the book that. president putin allegedly told mr bolton that back in

2014 when the ukraine crisis was at its peak that president obama promised putin to limit the damage to the u.s. russia relations if russia wouldn't go beyond crimea and that conversation between put in bolton reportedly took place in samarra for 2018 when the miller investigation was still ongoing and i thought that that was very curious because it puts all the allegations against. it makes all the allegations against trying to look like a child's play because if true some think would to come out something similar with to come out from trump's ears from times mouth rather he would be accused of treason do you find they believe a bowl and if so why do you think the russian president would spilled the beans at such a sensitive. the moment well president bush was not spilling the beans he was talking

privately to high official of the united states the kremlin doesn't leak mr putin said. yes mr putin said it publicly that she will not. vote information that his colleagues share with him privately that's that's a matter of principle with president so i don't think president will tell you or anyone very soon or or ever what exactly was it that obama told him in 2048 now but he said to me mr cheney and just as he said present put in is not known for carelessly sharing his secrets if he does not allow himself sleep ops like that so if he indeed did it he did it on purpose and i wonder if you think he was trying to get on to something because many of your colleagues including a carnegie sounders believe that it is this this sort of trolling this sort of sigh

of the russian president is particularly fond of releasing very sensitive information at an opportune moment and. waiting to see how it's received. well i don't have a habit of 2nd guessing president. i don't know what meant if he wants he will tell you if you doesn't bolton's book is out and if they about the inner workings of they said ministration but from this a little bit of information here we're glimpsing something about the workings the inner workings of the bomb administration and it's pretty apparent that they have promised mr a chanel out itself a lot of things that it's later. try to prosecute the trumpet ministration for i mean. general flynn's conversation of ambassador case that he got he went to jail for that but this is something greater magnitude you know and i married essentially

in gauging a grand bargain with russia well yeah this is this is this is typical you lose your political of going to all the things that you are going through and maybe during your sell. out of the game you know it's a despicable disgusting but that's this political sausage just me can i ask you a specific question about the game of politics and the game of propaganda because a few days ago the new york times came out with a front page article essentially a lashing that russia is paying back to the taliban for every american soldier killed and it's one thing to accuse russia you know like some hacking or you know my channel off spreading some money while confused but it's quite i think the raising of stakes when if you say that russia deliberately targets then merican military personnel do you think russia has any reasons to be concerned about where

it's going. to reasons to be concerned about a lot of things happening right now as part of the. election because i see this very much as part of the. election. intelligence services of the united states and russia are essentially a war with each other and war is is not the word i would use like yes they are at war there may be occasional. collaboration keeping off about terrorists tipping off each other about terrorists otherwise they are at war. you would recall that there was an incident in syria in. 2018 when a still uncertain number. call them military contractors called and

mercenaries allegedly belonging to the one group were washed out by an american attack military attack. those guys were not supposed to be the americans are saying they were they won by the russians of course americans were not supposed to be the judge jury over syria. without indication of the syrian government but the fact is we don't know how many people died american americans are talking about dozens or maybe a couple 100 people. and some of them some some people talking about the united states recently i wouldn't say that talk about it was right but they did not sat they killed so many russians i still would be extremely shocked if the crown land of what that or russia would ask a hip hop to this point i'm pretty sure that i don't i don't i don't know but but what is a war i talked about not 2nd guessing the president of russia i would not try to

interpret the small communities that come out of. this is what no then you've got mr chan this is not what i'm talking about because it's one thing when you are dealing through proxies as was the case in the syrian war theater but it's quite a different thing to deliberately target a u.s. military personnel if that were indeed the case one that war and a war between the 2 countries they don't rack attack on their own another country's military well again i say that there isn't there was just war going on. this is a cruel thing i know nothing about what actually happened in afghanistan and i would guess i wouldn't want to guess to me this is is this. is this something that would tip off military conflict between russia and the united states my answer is

no. well as i said in the 28 year and i will cite another example we can't put it close to a military confrontation a military collision where the chief of the russian general staff said that if american missiles aimed at syria. damaged. russian military personnel then we will respond against their platforms for wish those missiles will have been launched which to me it was a perfect scenario of a russian american war and real war so we we are balancing on down fine line unfortunately and tragically that's why we are we shouldn't we shouldn't be shouldn't get ourselves into thinking that somehow we are you know to jump. jump if you like just you know johnston. not not aiming to harm each other now speaking about how are you going around we have only

a few minutes left but i still want to ask you about this russia is often accused of trying to heal expand the america they slapped for expanding and on demining aren't americans doing that pretty good pretty well the south. well in my view a same policy by russia would be to sit back and below the united states and let the house. do mercy of its own devices precautions because this is a delicate and dangerous moment. shouldn't interfere frankly. those in russia who believe. this guy yes that guy we would somehow get instead they are very wrong we russia does not have and will not have friends there american political let us just forget it they'll be nothing to russia long beyond the united states this confrontation with russia will continue for

a very long and the only thing you can do about it is to make sure that doesn't doesn't lead to war doesn't lead to a military collision in a broad coalition i'm sure still a collision and finally both of us are very relieved through the collapse of the soviet union and i'm sure you remember that sounds of. our in their rejection that the russian people have like we were revising our history we were tearing down the statutes renaming the streets and i don't know about you but. what i when i see what's happening in the united states it reminds me a lot about what russia went through in their early 1990 s. specifically the redefining of all over russian or in this case then merrick canet and it just struck me in that i was reading some of the. president obama's speeches on exceptionalism they are that they and he was specifically defining an american exceptionalism in terms of equality and opportunity in one of the speeches he said

that what makes us so special they add their wealth is that we give each and every man their rights you perceive he's or her measure of happiness nobody nobody can afford to say that those things today nobody can have applause. president obama obama say that i'm sure president obama cannot repeat his own speeches right now because you have to say that america is deeply a racist country suffering from structural racism and my question final question to you is rather you think we are actually witnessing not only the demolition of historical monuments but the actual demolition of the great american political myth . well. yes and no. i'm not. sure we've talked about that is the crisis. is this a terminal crisis no i don't know. america in us history has reinvented itself.

america was started as a democracy by. slave owning intellectuals and that was all right we're out of god america went through a civil war a real civil war so. does that mean the united states is unraveling no. the important thing is not just the midst. of a methodist collapsing but i believe that over time it will be supplanted by another mosher russian of unrest but the idea of exceptionalism. is showing central to american psyche that i do not see it. it disappearing america will never become a normal country as long as they believe that that country's great i think that's attached very important anyway we have to leave it there thank you very much for

being with us today you're welcome thank you very much not to be with you and thank you for watching i hope to see you again next week and while the party. tenders financial collapse i don't buy a i promise if you. think the friday as a lesson of buying from the future don't crack up watched kaiser. join me every.

among the week's top stories from our. week long. public opinion. i love my country and you think everything that is being done is right i think it is. needed because the current situation is out of date. debate rages all over the future of statues linked to historical racism. germany's claim to. seattle police clear the self-proclaimed. deadly shootings on repeated.