a lot of welcome to worlds apart the u.s. claim of exceptionalism supremacy has long been a strong irritant to the russians especially coupled with the suffering and the humiliation brought about by the collapse of the soviet union fast forward 30 here is how does most posts seem to be tearing down of statues and the revision of not just history but national identity currently underway across the pond well to discuss that i'm now joined by the mit create the brain and the director of the carnegie moscow center with the training that's always a great pleasure talking to you thank you very much for taking the time a pleasure thank you thank you for having me now i know that your i've been a bookworm as evidenced by the shells behind your back and i'm pretty sure that you've already had both chore or perhaps the pleasure of reading john bolton latest account of his 16 months in the white house what impression did it make on you

well. a couple impressions one approaches that. seem to me the best of both. male come to the white house with our dear. yes we can go there rethink that he heard during his unstamped white house sold out when he exits that building he could make a lot of money and i found it. a bit. i think she shared with the world much more than. gold thought he should have sharon so that's one impression another impression was that. the book is very long on detail short of reflection so it's all about dialogues it's all about he said he is such a. human presence. but is only

a little reflection about the momentous changes to happen a within the united states within the city of washington i want to add that almost every self respecting american politician or official has a book or few under his or her bow but what is indeed so striking about this particular. book is that it comes at a very high stakes time for the united states the pandemic is not over yet the economy still bogged down the products are still going on the actions are 4 months away does it still feel like a suspense thriller to you i'm talking about the events in america or is it already you know a fully fledged disaster movie or a catastrophe movie because the united states after all still is the world's number one and number 2 nuclear superpower and the restraints on the use of those weapons

and the menacing. there's a convergence of crises in the united states that has a clearly a political crisis that. has started. and digitally started immediately after the. previous presidential election has not just drunk its deprogrammed so you have that political crisis you have a social crisis crisis very much fuelled by crass inequality you know b.r.s. the. yes you also have an ideological crisis liberalism. has been going to be fanciful very. surprisingly for the liberals themselves that conservatism is on the rise they call that populist whatever. and then of course there is a foreign policy crisis this basically means that. the united states.

is done with making the world look like the united states and it has to adjust to the outside world so you have to redraw us you have to flip flip the coin response your foreign foreign policy in a big weight and that's what's happening it's it's it's interesting times but as always living in interesting times maybe a little bit too much fun and i'm sure with a with me that bolton paints a picture of a very chaotic very impulsive administration trumping ministration in his in his book where everything is. decided in a haphazard south serving manner with very little deference to national interests and what i wanted to ask if that's just trump or do you think that's a fitting matter for for the political america as a whole because he mentioned that this crisis in the range in age with trunk chomp . to a large extent is a reaction to the forces that are fighting him well long before

a dollar trump became a household name really now states and the world over. washington ceased to be a city that. tended toward a compromised bipartisanship national interest people talked about gridlock in congress for years people talked about. their rights all the radicals in both parties so all this unraveling. in a pretty solid. bipartisan centrist approach to politics most domestic and foreign. dates trump that's for sure so there's something about the. president the white house is about the president the white house the president the president style this is something the rest of the white house actually have to adapt you about it's not just there you look at your you know washington.

people talk about the state department that. some people are so. paralyzed to have. any department you take. general whatever problems of justice you have those issues need be not as much concentrated as they are going to the white house because of cigarettes but still that's that's that's the that's the impression that a lot of observers close observers washington d.c. now both on snape peeve with trungpa is that he doesn't have any grand strategy and that he doesn't listen to experts and i wonder if that's if that makes so much of a difference and then merican context because tom's predecessor president obama was a very studious man he had the largest national security council on the records he

supposedly many people believe had some great vision and yeah dad did not prevent from major disaster as miscalculations and on the african continent in the european affairs etc trying to his credit hasn't done any of that so does the expertise really matter and is that only a matter of trump's times or is it that more continuous problem as far as the united states is concerned i think as usual there's an element of. both i think that president obama was a subway perhaps the most intellectual leader that the united states has had recently and yet president obama and that is very evident from his very long interview. trikes you as a much more long very much a person who. rejected by the elites in washington he was too intellectual

here was to respond in elite and many of his actions all rather his inaction places like libya places like syria. where reasons for a very strike and criticism that obama was subjected to people who started talking about obama being. eased out of the middle east who you know all that stuff which is not really square very well with reality so. listening to experts yeah a leader would need to listen to experts but a leader. should not be should not allow himself to be led by by by the nose by the experts mr training you still seem to have a lot of respect and empathy for president obama as i hear people do but

respectfully for the office of the presidency of the united states that's for sure he's going to satisfy him as a loner somebody who could you know. realize he's great vision but if you actually look at their makings of their recent russia gate scandal it's pretty avid and that it was driven primarily by the obama people and these people went on c.n.n. saying one thing and this same day in closed hearings they would say something completely op. i mean trump is often accused of being a liar and it's true that he's very casual in his speech but don't you think that there is a different kind of deception with the obama administration intellectual moral ethical deception that. you know sometimes since it's even more painful than you know seeing somebody who's just bragging about his achievements. well you know

. frankly. much of one. i do not take sides in the american domestic strife from around here and we are just analyzing and i mean. yeah absolutely to me they're all american politicians deception is. all well they're only are you not because a lot of you have to deceive you have you because you are more in the public domain if you're on the united states does the political culture than you on some other collector you know i mean did you see them in your place in these one art but when you are publicly claiming something against another major power and denying the same thing in closed hearings that's that's lying full stall that's not you know trump made some assumptions or mistaking some facts and he said that's actually a very deliberate effort. this. is someone who is really direct. who is very you doesn't care about political correctness but

hypocrisy is is a must in public politics. you know the united states more broadly in the west that's a more you cannot. cannot. achieve anything unless you have practiced . to a very fine degree. and i will tell you that since the us they say is a country of lawyers you always have to watch your town you always have to watch what you're saying so you need be saying soon as i knew you were on the only television her language when you were in los hearings but don't tally it but i mean we know from recent revelations that people like susan rice were publicly lying through their teeth i mean like if there is no it adding temper taishan they were stating one thing in public and out a thing absolutely different thing. you know look i don't look for morals in public . anyway but. you know and i'm a not well i'm a foreign analyst and as

a foreign analyst i look at these guys and what i see is that they're hearing their nation or. that's a degree. of vehemence. a degree of hatred. each other those 2 camps is just now still nominal we never had anything like that in the united states since the civil war. so that is that is a very good for knowledge i'm not engaged i'm shocked when i'm thinking is down to me suggests that the country is going through its most severe political crisis in maybe in a 100 years yeah i agree with you it's a very septic shock and i think it's it's an example of throwing the baby out with the bathwater bad person turning let's take a very short break now i will continue this conversation after

a few moments. are. no no crowd. no shots. actually. no it's more. which your thirst for action.

are. welcome back. 2 worlds apart with me treat training director of the carnegie moscow center mr training just before the break we were talking about bolton's book and one of the most. cynical i thing at assertions in the book was that mr trump is so straightforward and so dump. the president of this country of logic and putin can play him like a female and the funniest part of this all is that mr bolton himself that hands up providing the music for playing because obviously any intelligence i would assume would love to have such an intimate portrait of a president to hopefully many pilate and use it or exploit it in their dealings with the person. well i don't think you can actually exploit. that but i think

what you can do is you can understand a little bit better how those guys are dealing when no one is watching and of course you do not need to take a book trace really opens book is a political book it's a political bombshell it's something that. was set off the best time in terms of politics in terms of the money you also was going to make and the book the book lies. deceit and the tricks your take everything it's based now you will but this this is this is an interesting chris you're cruel. first evidence about what's going on now speaking about. the russian president's ability to play a fiddle i think there is an interesting fact or assertion at least in that book that. president putin allegedly told mr bolton that back in

2014 when the ukraine crisis was at its peak that president obama promised putin to limit the damage to the u.s. russia relations if russia wouldn't go beyond crimea and that conversation between putin and bolton reportedly took place in samarra for 2018 when the miller investigation was still ongoing and i thought that it was very curious because it puts all the allegations against. it makes all the allegations against trying to look like a child's play because if try something with to come out something similar with to come out from trump's ears from times mouth rather he would be accused of treason do you find him believable and if so why do you think the russian president would spilled the beans at such a sensitive. the moment well president bush was not spilling the beans he was

talking privately to high official of the united states the kremlin doesn't leak mr putin said. yes mr putin said it publicly that she will mark. the information that his colleagues share with him privately that's that's a matter of principle with president so i don't think president putin will tell you or anyone very soon or or ever what he what exactly was it that obama told him in 2040 and now but he said to me mr cheney and just as he said present put in is not known for carelessly sharing his secrets if he does not allow himself sleep ops like that so if he indeed did it he did it on purpose and i wonder if you think he was trying to get on to something because many of your colleagues including a carnegie sounders believe that it is this this sort of trolling this sort of fire

all of that the russian president is particularly fond of releasing very sensitive information at an opportune moment and. waiting to see how it's received. well i don't have a habit on 2nd guessing president putin. i don't know what putin meant. if you once he will tell you if you doesn't. smoke is altoona thing about the inner workings of this administration but from this little little bit of information we are glimpsing something about the workings the inner workings of the bomb administration and it's pretty apparent that they are bomb of ministration allowed itself a lot of things that it later tried to prosecute the trumpet ministration for i mean. general flynn's conversation with ambassador keyes slack he got he went to jail for that but this is something greater magnitude you know and i married

essentially engage in a grand bargain with russia well yeah this is this is this is typical you and your political is going to pull the strings that you're going through maybe during your sell. out of the game you know it's a despicable disgusting but that's the political sausage just me can i ask you a specific question about the game of politics and the game of propaganda because a few days ago the new york times came out with a front page article essentially a lad saying that russia is paying back to the taliban for every american soldier killed and it's one thing to accuse russia you know like some hacking or you know my channel off spreading some money while confused but it's quite i think the raising of stakes when you say that russia deliberately targets then merican military personnel do you think russia has any reasons to be concerned about where

it's going. to reasons to be concerned about a lot of things happening right now as part of the. election because i see this very much as part of the. election. intelligence services of the united states and russia are essentially a war with each other and war is not the word i would use like yes they are at war then maybe occasional. collaboration keeping off about terrorists tipping off each other about terrorists otherwise they are at war. you would recall that there was an incident in syria in. 2018 when a still uncertain number. called them military contractors called and

mercenaries allegedly belonging to the one group were washed out by an american attack military attack. those guys were not supposed to be the americans are saying they were very well but the russians of course americans were not supposed to be the judge jury over syria. without the indication of the syrian government but the fact is we don't know how many people died american americans are talking about dozens or maybe a couple 100. and some of them some some people talking about the united recently i wouldn't say that talk about it was right but they did not sat they killed so many russians i still would be extremely shocked if the crown land of what that or russia would ask the way up to this point i'm pretty sure that i don't i don't i don't know but but what is a war i talked about not 2nd guessing the president of russia i would not try to

interpret the small communities that come out of. this is what no then you've got mr chan this is not what i'm talking about because it's one thing when you are dealing through proxies as was the case in the syrian war theater but it's quite a different thing to deliberately target a u.s. military personnel if that were indeed the case one that war and a war between the 2 countries a direct attack on on another country's military. will again i say that there isn't there was just war going on or. this is a cruel thing i know nothing about what actually happened in afghanistan and i would guess i wouldn't want to guess to me this is is this. is this something that would tip off military conflict between russia and the united states my answer is

no. but as i said in the 28 year and i will cite another example we can put it close to a military confrontation a military collision where the chief of the russian general staff said that if american missiles aimed at syria. damaged. russian military personnel then we will respond against their platforms for wish those missiles will have been launched but to me it was a perfect scenario of a russian american war and real war so we we are balancing on down fine line unfortunately and tragically that's why we are we shouldn't we shouldn't be shouldn't get ourselves into thinking that somehow we are you know to jump. jump if you like just you know just. not not in me to harm each other now speaking about how are you going around we have only

a few minutes left but i still want to ask you about this russia is often accused of trying to heal expand america to undermine american faith and its institutions is there any space left for expanding and on demining aren't americans doing that pretty good pretty well the south. well in my view a same policy by russia would be to sit back and allow the united states let the united states at the mercy of its own devices take precautions because this is a delicate and dangerous moment but you shouldn't interfere frankly i think that those in russia who believe that this guy against that guy would somehow benefit they are very wrong we russia does not have and will not have friends in the american political class just forget it they'll be nothing but

a russian lobby and the united states this confrontation with russia will continue for a very long time and the only thing you can do about it is to make sure that doesn't it doesn't lead to war doesn't lead to a military collision in a violent collision i'm sure still a collision and finally both of us may believe that in the collapse of the soviet union and i'm sure you remember that fans all 5. either in their rejection of the russian people have like we were revising our history we were tearing down the statue or it's renaming the streets and i don't know about you but. what it when i see what's happening in the united states it reminds me a lot about what russia went through in their early 9 to 90 s. then merrick in the meth and it just struck me in that i was reading some of the. president obama's speeches on exceptionalism they are the day and he was specifically defining i merican exceptionalism in terms of equality and opportunity

in one of the speeches he said that what makes us so special they am the world is that we give each and every man the right to pursue her measure of happiness nobody nobody can afford to say that those things today nobody can up to president obama obama say that i'm sure president obama can't repeat his own speeches right now because you have to say that america is deeply a racist country suffering from structural racism and my question final question to you is rather you think we are actually witnessing not only the demolition of historical monuments but the actual demolition of the great american political myth . yes and no. i'm not. sure we've talked about that is the grossest. is this a terminal crisis no i don't. i'm not just curios reinvented itself.

america was started as a democracy by. slave owning intellectuals and that was all right we're out of god america runs through a civil war real civil war so. does that mean the united states is unraveling you know. the important thing is not just the midst. of a mess as collapsing but i believe that over time it will be supplanted by another mosher russian of unrest but the idea of exceptionalism. is showing central to american psyche that i do not see it. it disappearing america in my view will never become a normal country as long as they believe that that country is great i think that's attached very important anyway we have to leave it there thank you very much for

being with us today you're welcome thank you very much not to be with me and thank you for watching i hope to see you again next week and while the party. join me every. time i'm sure and i'll be speaking to. sport i'm sure i'll see you then.

some rumors as soon as you. see. the new make believe. those who just don't. care that a. very international community. media used to. play. into this this. was the position of the world. is everything. to do with. how they decided to take its life. will make you there.

among the week's top stories from hearty international rushes refresh the constitution comes into effect after getting solid backing in the challenging all week long the vote to be gauge public opinion on the changes. i love my country and you think everything that has been done is right i think it is nonsense and it's needed because the current constitution is out of date. to topple or protect a debate rages on over the future of statues linked to historical racism on our streets we look at germany's claim to have found a solution. and time's up seattle police clear the self-proclaimed autonomous protest zone following a deadly shootings and repeated violence.