no aspect of public policy including health care in the united states that doesn't become somehow the property of the arms industry it's true that in being built for so called the response to the coronavirus we suddenly find all these new military programs the harz that my book talked about they don't vote and they were justify why this concept that everybody seemed to share the night that the world the freedom loving people that everywhere they see an imminent threat that was so dangerous how horrific in its scope that we must temporarily what to fi some of our priorities and some of our ethical and moral principle but we'll certainly get back to those very soon as the price for the crisis never seems to end although communism is over as a book even though there's always terrorism there is china as it runs the search for enemies of the united states israel as well as just tell me who sydney gottlieb

is given the directors of the cia maybe your current secretary of state pompeo that alone as jeanne aspel now running the cia may not even even heard of sydney going to leave before this book came out so they got lee was running one of the most important secret projects in the history of united and identity was totally unknown or to the outside world. or only a vague idea of what he was doing actually this guy had a license to kill issued by the us government i concluded after doing all the research their way into this book that he not only was the poisoner in chief justice i have but he really was the most powerful under the legal american of the 20. now you make a lot of allegations against him i gotta say although we can't defame the dead. he said in a court case he couldn't remember things couldn't remember any of kinds of things

you talk about in the book back in 83 died in 1909. over here the statue of churchill is being attacked by black lives matter protest has just take us back to when churchill one to bio weapons so during the 2nd world war they knew what it for sure job you can convince by intelligence reports which were later proven job involved the nazi government was planning to arm some of it the missiles or raiding london with biological warfare weapons there or churchill not having the facility to radiate out their weapons that frankly rob all the armor him tens of thousands of interact. that he would hold in readiness to counterattack against germany so

russia's not agreed to do that and he ordered the us army to begin a secret project to create the anthrax and they were being built in a factory in indiana when the war ended so it was sure urgent request to roosevelt based on what turned out to be false information put the united states and really the western world on the path for biological weapons and i'm going to get to the cia's recruitment of nazis nazi doctors in a 2nd but again the context here we're talking about is. korea of britain the united states maybe have killed a 5th of korea's population in the korean war you say in the book that the cia thought. released u.s. soldiers this supposed to communism their apparent support could only be explained by mind altering drugs so i was working through the of this project m.k. ultra the cia mind control project the center of my book one of the questions that

kept emerging in my mind was what led rees people in the early cia to believe that mind control was real why did they spend 10 years destroying so many lives in the effort to try to find a way to destroy human minds and number and place it there. i think there are 2 reasons one of them has to do with cultural conditioning they have all the books in the movie sherlock holmes story the end around post story about mind control and you know that i think subconsciously a lot of these people that generation the generation that ran the early cia were affected by the other and began to lose the order between fiction and reality but then there were a couple of specific episode. that felt sort of as not at all ready for allies

soil was the one you mention in which. american prisoners of war returning from korea after the end of the war or in many cases to assign statements criticizing aspects of life in the and i ate some has confessed to going to war crimes in korea if you had said they had dropped by a logical bob the north koreans of the united states is always never happened how could they have said these things the only explanation that cia come up with was somehow their minds and then. by a hostile communist forces and therefore you see we're not speaking for themselves somebody was the root and therefore since we now have. evidence later proved to be on true that the communists have a mind control capacity or are developing it is absolutely urgent that we as

a defensive project become involved in the search for mind control and it was said we got these and i said before you can find a way to insert a new mind into somebody's brain you 1st have to find a way to destroy the mine that is in there he spent n. years experimenting on most important addictive trying to find ways roy's a human mind the human spirit the human body you mention the cultural context i mean these ivy league white middle class people there's a class dimension to it but even they out on earth did they agreed to hiring nazis people implicated people who were involved in experimentation and the death camps i mean specially sidney gottlieb himself what his grandparents were balik oh so i was it really is a fascinating part of the story so during at the very end of the 2nd world war.

head of our u.s. secret service the o.s.f. . wrote a memo to president roosevelt saying that as the nazi regime was collapsing it would be important for the u.s. government to try to hire nazi spies and bring them into working for the u.s. government rather rejected this idea that we're not going to hire any of those. but after a few months roosevelt with that through that was in power and that process went ahead after the very end mediately after the 2nd world war american intelligence officials were arresting many people in germany and they had files if you had a scientific background they would put a paper on your file so therefore operation paperclip became the name of the project by which nazis were brought to the united states and this was a process that involves something called shape because the records of these people

had to be placed all references to membership in the net after the gestapo had to be dies there would be little entries made into what a good family brand was. so the 1st group that came were by then the 2nd group was the rocket scientist that was very blunt then came the 30 bio warfare people the people who wanted to know how to control human money i thought to themselves who's out there that has information that we don't have who's been experimenting people and that plays out exactly what portions of our kind that work on the human mind in the human body well if they're not the cousins ration doctors and the bio warfare experts who work for the 3rd reich the part about godly is particularly intriguing as you say godly jewish his parents emigrated from the girl europe at the beginning of the 20th century if they had not emigrate and you know

sydney might well wild up being the victim of one of those horrific so called medical experiment in a nazi concentration camp but in the event that didn't happen to grow up in the united states any didn't seem to have any problem working shoulder to shoulder with the nazi doctors who carried out those various maybe the senators. worked on that committee on torture about guantanamo about abu ghraib maybe they should definitely read this book because ironically i suppose predictable that they then these nazi doctors this stuff engage in a pulling torture and injecting l.s.d. into african-americans and the tricity drugs you talk about mass poisonings in san francisco you're absolutely right that project went completely off the rails largely due to gottlieb himself so does the san francisco piece was just one

example you're right it involves our respect experiments on human subjects and the numbers of people die but godly also had all sorts of other interests one of them was l.s.d. making 53 in the godly persuasions of the i.a.e.a. to buy the entire world's supply of l.s.d. and use that for 2 purposes one was these horrific lee course an experiment into trying to destroy human minds but the other for less course of experiments including this bizarre program that he set up in san francisco he wanted to see if there was a connection between drugs like l.s.d. and other one and that so we got a guy in san francisco to work for him in a hire a ring of prostitute. job was to go out to the guys bring them back to a specially equipped apartment they were there be said l.s.d. and their reactions would be monitored by some fat drug agent who had no scientific

background it was just sitting on a portable toilet drinking martinis out of a catcher. this will call operation midnight why backs. so this is national security whorehouse were part of america's effort to defend itself against communism in the $850.00 this is how crazy m.k. ultra. 7 kids are all stop you there more about and gayle turn the poisoner in chief after this break plus on thin ice despite black lives matter protests over alleged murders by u.s. security forces are the next to feel the force of us will one force meant a 1000000 overseas students we'll tell you how you might escape the clutches of the immigration and customs enforcement agency as plans for mass deportations begin only civil coming up in part 2 of going underground.

you live in the age of just believe the people don't trust the government and the government doesn't trust the people i meet come to this get to see the legitimacy and more importantly is there a way out is dialogue. my no 2 you know crowd. no shots no. action just a bell to be. going to strike no 1st. points your thirst for action.

leg. length. welcome back i'm still here with stephen kinzer discussing the cia's so called mind control program m.k. ultra tell me about the unintended consequences the cultural consequences and does the 60s counter-culture well the irony of it has to do with the experiments that

got the want to carry out ordinary people so in addition to these uses of l.s.d. is there on prisoners or on people who are unaware gottlieb also wanted to see how an ordinary person would react to a let me in a clinical setting knowing exactly what was happening so almost overnight a whole new market for l.s.d. research grew up people who'd come in and volunteer one of them with cam keys the author of what went on to become the great counterculture classic one flew over the cuckoo's nest actually he took it in a hospital and loved it so much that he got a job in the hospital in the veterans administration not the middle of our california that's what gave them the material purpose fantastic but alan ginsburg the radical poet was another of the very 1st volunteers to use the method of

understood that the l.s.d. they were using came from the new gottlieb and the i clearly also then go on to do quote john lennon who said thank the cia if not to gottlieb i understand the assassination program was pretty lifing tell me about the press there better known the castro fidel castro raul castro che guevara's assassination attempt by going to labor and also patrice lumumba so the title of my book poisoner in chief refer to the us doesn't you're talking about that in the campaign by unite in the late. foreign leader then he got. was the head of the chemical branch of the cia there was a logical that when the cia needed poison or any purpose including killing a foreign leader he would be the person they were turned in it was sydney got the. poison that was supposed to have been used to poison the chinese leader joe and why

that plot was thwarted later on fidel castro became the target and it was godly who created all those elaborate devices you read about not only made the lp deal that the phrase i learned while reading the file i wish dealt ill else as for lethal or help it was a little kill you he made those for castro but he also made things like a poison fountain and with an ultra fine so he wouldn't feel if it went into your leg he made a poison wetsuit so that if castro put another and we need a way to get him alive you think none of the plots were successful then when the cia decided at the order of president eisenhower to assassinate patrice lumumba the prime minister of the congo not only did godly make the boy carried from washington to the congo which i think makes him the only person in history at its

best ever of carry government may poison to another country intended for the use in the fascinating the leader of that country you know we don't know if you believe these assassinations go on in your book you quote richard helms as saying the principal driving force was attorney general robert kennedy and you say there's an irony that actually the cia acid in paris was receiving a poison pen on the same day as as malcolm x. said the chickens came home to roost and j.f.k. robots brother was killed whatever you believe about the kennedy assassination all of the or even in some way didactic you. if it was oswald alone it was because he was a very we know it go back to us making it was castro it was revenge then with the and after a few moments it was because they didn't like any giving up on the baby. yet it was because if you missed it with the i am right out rogue elements of the national hero it was because they were angry were going to be over that shield the 2nd had

never left the us government actually died when i. went to work the persian action q but you know it's a moment of thinking we're still angry don't castro but we don't know how many hundreds of millions of lives may be affected by all these foreign policy decisions just finally what's happened to camp dietrich which reaches so much in this book is associated with plum island because of course there is a conspiracy in fact law some of us representative from the republicans because it was smith said lyme disease could have been created by camp dietrich it's a disease 300000 americans a diagnosis annually off what is kind of the trick now well 48 you're going to now call was the center for development of u.s. biological weapons and biological agents in general it's now used for example purpose as a storage facility for. dos to possible disease.

it was rare that cindy got we maintain a secret will spell in which cia scientists concocted their voice carried out their other work. now it's not clear what kind of research is done on behind some of the closed doors or people but it's certain that they that. all we don't know how deep the u.s. government is going into research for biological warfare some of which is going to bite us or whatever the u.s. government is doing in this area it's happening behind closed door on that base in maryland same base that was the center m.k. ultra the place where the horses were fabricated. where there is the most. research anywhere in the world waiting weapons. here you know or

defend against record weaponization. of vital and very obscure role in the art harbor of bio warfare and the investigation biological tools if it be used a little. simkins i thank you. well away from the cia now to another arguably in from his u.s. government agency ice or immigration and customs enforcement has grown a virus in black lives matter protests continue to rage it is threatening to deport maybe every overseas student from the usa but the leading immigration lawyer and former international student is fighting back fiona mcentee joins me now via skype from chicago thanks unified coming on more than a 1000000 international students given the u.s. student visas nastia what on earth is being threatened against them. thanks for having the apps and i were kind of messed up fight by by there was actually earlier

on this week at. change course with regard. for foreign students that were made kind of made hands and essentially they said that if foreign students were going to be studying online and morris had an online only course that's for the false master and they would not be able to do that while maintaining their their student visa status here in the u.s. now i know harvard and mit have already said they're going to sue the trumpet ministration i mean this could really mean the mass deportation of say all u.k. students from the united states. well i mean that was certainly what i had put in there they're interactive that they issued a essentially last foreign students that we're going to be handing online only courses with a few options and i don't think any of the options are grace and the 1st is the leave the last 2nd to try to scramble to transfer schools and a few weeks notice assuming they can find a course in

a school that is not online only and force the schools to to go on to kind of change from online only to in person or face deportation so they're the options that they were left with into law it is to say that harvard and mit have already say northwestern university in chicago and recently just joined in in support of harvard and mit position as well and i know you tweeted out a loophole a possible loophole i don't know whether you're being humorous about it i'll get to that in a 2nd 1st of all do you think this seriously is a recognition by those in power in the u.s. that students they consume is but they don't contribute anything to united states society when they're there i mean it's certainly a slap in the face to the foreign students who come over and i just don't understand it from an economic point of view all the economic data goes to show how much foreign students contribute just like even living here you know

$41000000000.00 as they've put into the u.s. economy in the 2829000 academic year at just by being here their presence alone created over 450000 jobs here in the you asked so in the middle of a pontiac when the economy is suffering on so many ways i don't know why it makes sense to try to ecstatic huge population of emmer and thought are clearly contributing so much now let's get to this loophole that could save students watching this program around the world they could be something like a one credit course that could save them from deep. you know their ability to return to the u.s. to resume studies well i know that the colleges and universities are looking into the office and there was provision for am type model where it's not online only potentially codes foreign students and to stay but i think if that administration trump administration ice were trying to force schools to open i think their plan

hasn't really worked because instead of doing that they've actually seen the administration so i would advise foreign students to terry and communicate with your university and sit and watch this space to see what happens with this lawsuit but technically if the university has gone to online because of corona virus and they have just one tiny little course maybe half an hour long that is face to face that that would mean that they would not be deported by ice well they're trying to figure out those details so there was provision for it you know that the directive spoke about online only so i think they're trying to figure out exactly what that means and kind of what are the promises of costs and so still being investigated by the colleges and the universities but i know that i had rather. i think you know almost every professor from some of these big universities had volunteered to coleman to teach at n.p.r.'s lynn class because they know how

important the foreign students are both economically but also these are these are people's lives and i used to be a foreign student myself so advocating for current foreign student something that i'm really passionate about you can just tell that the professors you know they care a lot about these students that are from all over the world and it's just not right the position that ice is taken given that the grown a virus is you know absolutely not under control in this country and aside from the nearly half a 1000000 jobs lost perhaps 41000000000 down to the u.s. economy hundreds of thousands. maybe affected in terms of a student accommodation in the us yeah actually that was one of the things. i had done an interview and almost immediately multiple landlords got in touch with me directly to say that they were rantings that they were releasing their places to foreign students and that if they were deported as you know they're asking me what's going to happen to their their apartment so actually recommended that they

consider writing a letter to the added or their local newspaper and students but there's a huge ripple effect from this on some of that includes the m. packs that it would have on landlords that are really saying to foreign students at the time of this interview joe biden has an issued anything from delaware about what he'll do if he wins the white house in november obama and biden deported many more than trump more than any other president in history or all the presidents put together obama was known as the deporter in chief maybe more than 2 and a half 1000000 i mean any sign that actually could be worse than trump on these overseas students issues no i don't think that there's any there's absolutely no way the biden is going to you know implant these types of policies. and i think that i've actually looks at with online but i brad's through. vice president biden's plan for immigration he's made a commitment to immigration reform to put it on the agenda in the 1st $100.00 days

his plan is very comprehensive addresses that the humanitarian aspects of immigration like the asylum seekers you know in addition to looking so reform in the business immigration and so addressing you know just the fact that the system is a dated and doesn't necessarily match up with the needs so there is no doubt in my mind there's no way we would see something like this from for your magazine thank you. thank you for having me that's over the show will be back on wednesday that might have been a tease 1st democratically elected leader but aristide overthrown by u.s. backed death squads. join the underground a new twitter site that instagram the facebook. during the vietnam war u.s. forces also bombed to neighboring laos there was

a secret war. and for years the american people did not know. we mounted laos so my skin is officially the mouth heavily bombed country per capita. human history millions of unexploded bombs still in danger lives in this small agricultural country jordyn wieber went on to another topic that even today kids in laos full victims of bombs dropped decades ago is the us making amends for that tragedy and. help to the people need in that little land on. seemed wrong. but. just don't call. any. yet to shape out they become educated and engagement equals betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart. chance to look for common ground.

on my in the news in my. mind. a divisive a time about members of us a bit. more about. what went on in the side of the. scene the guy doing the game but i'm before. him by the. by the imam obama.

fresh black lives matter protests descend into violence in new york city while anger surges elsewhere after new video shows a police officer restraining a suspect by putting pressure on his neck. also in the u.s. for the record another record daily increase in coping infections also the country's biggest search since the start of the outbreak and russian critical care doctor working in new york says the crisis is of a scale health workers there have never seen before. many of my colleagues including those who were here during the 911 attacks and h one n one epidemic.