is given the directive of the cia maybe your current secretary of state pompei and then alone as jeanne aspel now running the cia may not even heard of sidney got leave before this book came out when the guy was running one of the most important secret project in the history of united and identity was totally unknown or to the outside world even inside the i.a.e.a. there are only a vague idea what i'm doing actually this guy had a license to kill issued by the us government i concluded after doing all the research the way into this book that he not only was the poisoner in chief as i have but he really was the most powerful under the law america of the 20. now you make a lot of allegations against him i'm going to say although we can't defame the dead . he said in a court case he couldn't remember things going to remember any of the kinds of things you talk about in the book but in 83 died in 1909. over here the

statue of churchill is being attacked by black lives matter protest has just take us back to when churchill one to bio weapons so during the 2nd world war they knew what it for sure joe became convinced by intelligence reports which were later proven to been fall the nazi government was planning to arm some of it the missiles or raiding london with biological warfare weapons there or churchill not having the silicon cells to radiate out their weapons that frankly raw. for him tens of thousands of the interact. he would hold in readiness to counterattack against germany so russia's not agreed to do that and he ordered the us army to begin

a secret project to create the anthrax and they were being built in a factory in indiana when the war ended so it was sure urgent request to roosevelt based on what turned out to be false information put the united states and really the western world on the path for biological weapons and i'm going to get to the cia's recruitment of nazis nazi doctors in a 2nd but again the context here we're talking about is. korea britain the united states maybe have killed a 5th of korea's population in the korean war you say in the book that the cia thought. release us soldier is this supposed to communism their apparent support could only be explained by mind altering drugs so i was working through the of this project m.k. ultra the cia mind control project the center of my book one of the questions that

kept emerging in my mind was what landry's people in the early cia to believe that mind control was real why did they spend 10 years destroying so many lives in the effort to try to find a way to destroy human minds and number and place it there. i think there are 2 reasons one of them has to do with cultural conditioning they have all the books in the movie sherlock holmes story the end around post story about mind control and note that i think subconsciously a lot of these people that generation the generation that ran the early cia were affected by the other and began to lose the order between fiction and reality but then there were a couple of specific episode. that felt sort of a season that already fertilised soil was the one you mention in which. american

prisoners of war returning from korea after the end of the war or in many cases to assign statements criticizing aspects of life in the and i ate some has confessed to going to many more crimes in korea a few have said they had dropped by a logical bob the north koreans of the united states is always never happened how could they have said these things the only explanation that the cia come up with was somehow their minds and even. by a hostile communist forces and therefore we see we're not speaking for the valves somebody was the root and therefore since we now have. evidence later proved to be on true that the communists have a mind control capacity or are developing it is absolutely urgent that we as a defensive project become involved in the search for mind control and it was

sydney gottlieb's and i said before you can find a way to insert a new mind into somebody's brain you 1st have to find a way to destroy the mind that is in there he spent n. years experimenting on most important addictive trying to find ways roy's a human mind the human spirit the human body human to the cultural context i mean these ivy league white middle class people there's a class dimension to it but even they out on earth did they agreed to hiring nazis people implicated people who were involved in experimentation with the death camps i mean specially sydney gottlieb himself what his grandparents rubella cause celeb was really this is a fascinating part of the story so during at the very end of the 2nd world war.

head of our u.s. secret service the l.s.s. . wrote a memo to president roosevelt saying that as the nazi regime was collapsing it would be important for the u.s. government to try to hire nazi spy and bring them into working for the u.s. government rather rejected this idea that we're not going to hire any of those. but after a few months roosevelt with that through that was in power and that process went ahead after the very end mediately after the 2nd world war american intelligence officials were arresting many people in germany and they had files if you had a scientific background they would put a paper on your file so therefore operation paperclip became the name of the project by which nazis were brought to the united states and this was a process that involves something called shape because the records of these people

had to be placed all references to membership in the net after the gestapo had to be. there would be a little entries made into what a good family brand was. so the 1st group that came were by then the 2nd group was the rocket scientist that was very blunt then came the 30 bio warfare people the people who wanted to know how to control human money thought to themselves who is out there that has information that we don't have who's been experimenting people and that played out exactly what portion of them were kind that work. on the human mind of the human by well if they're not the cousins ration doctors and the bio warfare experts who work for the 3rd reich the part about godly is particularly intriguing as you say gottlieb was jewish his parents emigrated from central europe at the beginning of this 20th century if they had not emigrated and you know sydney might well wild up being the victim of one of those horrific

so-called medical experiments in a nazi concentration camp but in the event that didn't happen to grow up in the united states any didn't seem to have any problem working shoulder to shoulder with the nazi doctors who carried out those various maybe the senators. worked on that committee on torture about guantanamo about abu ghraib maybe they should definitely read this book because ironically i suppose predictable that they then these nazi doctors this stuff engage in a pulling torture and injecting l.s.d. into african-americans and the tricity drugs you talk about mass poisonings in san francisco you're absolutely right that project went completely off the rails largely due to gottlieb himself so does the san francisco piece was just one example you're right it involves our respective experiments on human subjects and

the numbers of people died but god we also had all sorts of other interests one of them was l.s.d. making 53 in the godly persuasions of the i.a.e.a. to buy the entire world supply of l.s.d. and use that for 2 purposes one was these horrific lee course an experiment into trying to destroy human minds but the other were for less course of experiments including this bizarre program that he set up in san francisco he wanted to see if there was a connection between drugs like l.s.d. and other one and that so we got a guy in san francisco to work for him in a hire a ring of prostitutes there were job was to go out to the guys bring them back to a specially equipped apartment they were there be said l.s.d. and their reactions would be monitored by some fat drug agent who had no scientific

background it was just sitting on a portable toilet drinking martinis out of a pitcher this was called operation midnight choli back and so this national security whorehouse was part of america's effort to defend itself against communism and that 950 this is how crazy. m.k. ultra. seemed kids are all stop you there more about and gail join the boys are in chief after this break plus on faith in the heights despite black lives matter protests over alleged murders by u.s. security forces are the next to feel the force of u.s. no one force meant a 1000000 overseas students we'll tell you how you might escape the clutches of the immigration and customs enforcement agency has plans for mass deportations begin all this of all coming up in part 2 of going underground.

on my one using my. brain to validate time about what members of us i mean time that we're in a sentence of on lot more and i'm. hopeful. one with more than the side of obama. seen the following to him but i'm before but a cop out of them but i've. been out by now on body i'm now move on. move. aha no team no crowd. no

shots no. action just about speak. well it's true no small. point should your thirst for action. 54 jets and more than 1300 military personnel are headed to heal some air force base in alaska where is that to say come on i'll show you what's the reason for any type of enhanced u.s. military presence in this area russia. what is it suddenly about the south china sea that makes it so of added 11000000000 barrels of oil. take a look at this map who really owns what kind of says no it belongs to us india says

no we claim that that belongs to us both of these countries have nuclear weapons capabilities there is reason for concern so that's why we're going to drill down on the story for you today right here on the news with rick sanchez where you know as we always like to say we do believe by golly it's time to do news again. welcome back i'm still here with stephen kinzer discussing the cia's so-called mind control program m.k. ultra tell me about the unintended consequences the cultural consequences in terms of the 60s counter-culture well the irony of this has to do with the experiments that got me one carry out ordinary people so in addition to the users of l.s.d. either on prisoners or on people who were unaware got we've also wanted to see how

an ordinary person would react. in a clinical setting knowing exactly what was happening so almost overnight a whole new market research well people did come in and volunteer one of them was can keys the you know what went on to become the great counterculture classic one flew over the cuckoo's nest actually he took it in a hospital and loved it so. actually he got a job in the hospital in the veterans administration not the middle of our california that's what gave them the material purpose fantastic book arlen ginsburg the radical poet was another of the very 1st volunteers to use the method of understood that the l.s.d. they were using came from the new gottlieb and the i clearly also then go on to do a quote john lennon who said thank the cia if not got me i understand the assassination program was pretty lifing tell me about the press there better known

the castro castro raul castro che guevara's assassination attempts by both labor and also patrice lumumba so the title of my poisoner in chief refer to the i was does your talking about that of the campaign by the united. way. for a new leader that me god. was the head of the chemical branch of the cia there was a logical that when the cia needed poison or any purpose including killing a foreign leader he would be the person they were turned in it was sidney got the. poison that was supposed to have been used to poison the chinese leader joe and why that plot was thwarted later on fidel castro he became the target and it was godly who created all those elaborate devices you read about not only al pill that the phrase i learned while reading the file i wish to help build elf as for lethal

or l.t.l. was a little kill you he made those for castro but he also made things like a poison fountain and with an ultra fine so you wouldn't feel it went into your leg he made a poison wetsuit so that if castro put another and we need a way to get him so i've using other the plots were successful then when the cia decided at the order of president eisenhower to assassinate patrice lumumba of the prime minister of the congo not only got lee make the boy it carried from washington to the congo which i think makes him the only person in history at its best ever of carry government may poison to another country intended for the use in the fascinating the leader of that country you know we don't know if you believe these assassinations go on in your book you quote richard helms as saying the principal driving force was attorney general robert kennedy and you say there's an

irony that actually a cia acid in paris was receiving a poison pen on the same day as as malcolm x. said the chickens came home to roost and j.f.k. roberts a brother was killed whatever you believe about the kennedy assassination all of the or even in some way didactic you. if it was oswald alone it was because he was a very we know it go back to us making a doing that was castro it was revenge that was the end. it was because they didn't like him to giving up on the baby. yet it was because if you missed it with the i am right out rogue elements of the national hero it was because they were angry were going to be over here about it she'll the 2nd has never left the us government actually dies when i intend to work on her addition thanks to you but you know it's a moment of thinking we're still angry don't castro but we don't know how many hundreds of millions of lives may be affected by all these foreign policy decisions

just finally what's happened to camp dietrich which reaches so much in this book is associated with palm island because of course there is a conspiracy in fact law some of us representative from the republicans because of a smith said lyme disease could have been created by camp dietrich it's a disease 300000 americans a diagnosis annually off what is kind of the trick now well 48 you're going to now call was the center for development of u.s. biological weapons and biological agents in general it's now used for example per store as a storage facility for. anti dotes to possible with global disease. it was rare that sidney gottlieb maintained a secret well in which cia scientists concocted there or you carry out their other work. now it's not clear what kind of research is going on behind some of the

closed doors at fort dix but it's certain to say that. all we don't know how deep the u.s. government is going into research for biological warfare some of which is going to bite us or whatever or u.s. government is doing in this area it's happening behind closed door on that base in maryland same base that was the center m.k. ultra the place where the portions were fabricated. where there is the most. research anywhere in the world waiting weapons. period or defend against record weaponization. of vital and very obscure role in the art harbor of bio warfare and the investigation and biological tools if it be used a little. stephen kinzer thank you. well

away from the cia now to another arguably in from his u.s. government agency ice or immigration and customs enforcement has grown a virus in black lives matter protests continue to rage it is threatening to deport maybe every overseas student from the usa but only the immigration lawyer and former international student is fighting back you know to mckenty joins me now via skype from chicago thanks unified coming on more than a 1000000 international students given the u.s. student visas nastia what on earth is being threatened against them. thanks for having the apps and i were kind of messed up hide by by this i was actually earlier on this week at i changed course with regard. for foreign students that were made kind of hands and essentially they said that if foreign students were gulen to be studying online and morris had an online only course that's the false master and

they would not be able to do that while maintaining their their student visa status here in the u.s. now i know harvard and mit have already said they're going to sue the trump administration i mean this could really mean the mass deportation of say all u.k. students from the united states. well i mean that was certainly what i had put in their direction of that they issued a essentially last foreign students that we're going to use and an online only courses with a few options and i don't think any of the options are grace and the 1st is leave the last 2nd try to scramble to transfer schools and a few weeks' notice assuming they can find a course in a school that is not online only and force the schools to to go on to kind of change from online only to in person or face deportation so they're the options that they were left with iraq's into law it is to say that harvard and mit have already say northwestern university in chicago and recently just joined in support

of harvard and mit position as well and i know you tweeted out a loophole a possible loophole i don't know whether you're being humorous about it i'll get to that in a 2nd 1st of all do you think this seriously is a recognition by those in power in the u.s. that students they consume is but they don't contribute anything to united states society when they're there i mean it's certainly a slap in the face of the foreign students who come over and i just don't understand it from an economic point of view all the economic data goes to show how much foreign students contributes just like even living here you know $41000000000.00 they've put into the u.s. economy and the $2829000.00 academic here and just by being here their presence alone created over 450000 jobs here in the you asked so in the middle of a pontiac when the economy is suffering on so many ways i don't know why it makes

sense to try to exile a huge population of emmer and that are clearly contributing so much. let's get to this loophole that could save students watching this program around the world they could be something like a one credit course that could save them from deep. you know their ability to return to the u.s. to resume studies well i know that the colleges and universities are looking into the office and there was provision for am type model where it's not online only potentially codes foreign students and to stay but i think if that administration trump administration ice were trying to force schools to open i think their plan hasn't really worked because instead of doing that they've actually sued the administration so i would advise foreign students to tary communicate with your university and sit and watch this space to see what happens with this lawsuit but technically if the university has gone to online because of corona virus and they

have just one tiny little course maybe half an hour long that is face to face that that would mean that they would not be deported by ice well they're trying to figure out those details so there was provision for it you know that the directive spoke about online only so i think they're trying to figure out exactly what that means and kind of what are the promises of costs and so still being i think and investigated by the colleges and the universities but i know that i had rather. i think you know almost every professor from some of these big universities had volunteered to coleman to teach at n.p.r.'s lynn class because they know important the foreign students are both economically but also these are these are people's lives and i used to be a foreign student myself so advocating for current foreign student something that i'm really passionate about you can just tell that the professors you know they care a lot about these students are from all over the world and it's just not right and

the possession that ice is taken given that the coronavirus is you know absolutely not under control in this country and aside from the nearly half a 1000000 jobs lost perhaps 41000000000 down to the u.s. economy 100000. maybe affected in terms of a student accommodation in the us yeah actually that was one of the things. i had done an entry on almost immediately multiple landlords got in touch with me directly to say that they were rantings that they releasing their places to foreign students and that if they were deported as you know they're asking me what's going to happen to their their apartment so i actually recommended that they consider writing a letter to the added or their local newspaper just from their point of view because you know it's not just it's bad enough that it's directly on the foreign students but there's a huge ripple effect from this on some of that includes the m. packs that it would have on landlords that are really saying to foreign students at the time of this interview joe biden has an issued anything from delaware about

what he'll do if he wins the white house in november obama and biden deported many more than trump more than any other president in history or all the presidents put together obama was known as the deporter in chief maybe more than 2 and a half 1000000 i mean any sign that actually could be worse than trump on these overseas students issues no i don't think that there's any there's absolutely no way the biden is going to you know implement these types of policies. and i think that i've actually looks at that with online but i brads through. vice president biden's plan for immigration he's made a commitment to immigration reform to put it on the agenda in the 1st $100.00 days his plan is very comprehensive addresses that the humanitarian aspects of immigration like the asylum seekers as you know in addition to looking so reform in the business immigration and so addressing you know just the fact that the system

is a dated and doesn't necessarily match up with the needs so there is no doubt in my mind there's no way we would see something like this from for biden if your magazine thank you. thank you for having me that's of the show will be back on wednesday that we have their eighty's 1st democratically elected leader but are a state overthrown by u.s. backed that's what will that wash and join the underground and you criticize from the facebook. during the vietnam war u.s. forces. it was a secret war. and for years the american people did not know. how much it is officially the. country per capita. millions of unexploded bombs still in danger lives in this small agricultural country jordyn

wieber. even today kids in laos full victims of bombs dropped decades ago is the u.s. making amends for the tragedy in laos built to the people need in that little. 54 jets and more than 1300 military personnel are headed to air force base in alaska where is that to say come on i'll show you what's the reason for any type of enhanced u.s. military presence in this area rush up. what is it suddenly about the south china sea that makes it so that it 11000000000 barrels of oil. take a look at this map who really owns what kind of says no it belongs to us india says no we claim that that belongs to us both of these countries have nuclear weapons

capabilities there is reason for concern so that's why we're going to drill down on this story for you today right here. or on the news with rick sanchez where you know as we always like to say we do believe by golly it's time to do news again. we go to work so you straight home. you live in the age of just delete the people don't trust the government and the government doesn't trust you let me come to this deficit the legitimacy and more

importantly is there a way out is dial. block lives mother rallies spiral out of control in new york while under a flurry self elsewhere now for a new video shows a police officer pinning a suspect by the neck. florida records another record a daily increase in covert infections also the country's biggest surge since the start of the outbreak a russian intensive care doctor based in new york says the crisis is unlike anything health workers have seen before. many of my colleagues including those who hid during the $911.00 attacks and doing the h one

n one at the demi was surprised by the situation with the current.