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hello and welcome to cross talk where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle you live in the age of just believe the people who trust the government and the government doesn't trust how did we come to this deficit of legitimacy and more importantly is there a way out is dialogue. to discuss this and more i'm joined by my guest in bristol she is the deputy leader of the workers' party. britain as well as the arthur of the drive to war against

russia and china her upcoming book is identity politics or class and in budapest we go to george samuel he is author of bombs for peace nato's humanitarian war in yugoslavia cross up rules that affect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate ok let's go to risk the here chuckie a few weeks ago i think i already told this to george is that i was watching the tucker carlson show on fox and he was interviewing the swedish ambassador to the united states. because hogan and he was asking them are asking her how her government dealt with it and she started out by saying the people trust the government and the government trust the people well that is so normal a situation in the west right now it's remarkably different what accounts for this here because it the ability to have a dialogue is almost impossible now we're not just talking left and right up

nothing about people in the government go ahead i mean to be honest with you i'm not sure it's even really trading in sweden anymore ok fair enough but i have appreciate that for a while it was it there is trust between government and people when the people fail that the government has their interests at heart now for a long time capitalist governments have been able certainly in the west we had a kind of welfare state as a social democratic consensus that a certain minimum last time must be provided for everybody and therefore people felt the government was kind of had been back when it was a certain safety and low level that we would not now we saw that start to crumble in fact in the 1970 s. when the pows loom was over industrial jobs started to disappear from the imperius countries and many communities when left very devastated. i know that they didn't

have replacement jobs and their communities were just left to rot because they were very small minority of the overall population and the government spelt like this or the ruling classes felt they could leave that situation and let it rest and most people would be fools to keep voting labor but i've been here a lot democrats in the us and they didn't have anywhere else to go and that was no one else really speaking up to them because we had a lack of real good working class leadership a working class who was in retreat at that time. and so. that was the beginning of this process we could say now that she wasn't right financial crisis massively expeller right to that situation because we've got some literally the day before that banking crash we were being told that the reason our comic services were being dismantled was there wasn't enough resources and people go into that people believe people believe the problem was there's too many immigrants and the resources won't

stretch and then the next day billions to bail out the banks now that was a shock that was a big shock to people and i as i was already a community the socialist talking too much and ask us for that crash and after that crash and i can tell you the difference in how people received what i had to say you know overnight was staggering it's really george written just to enjoy here obviously is way left there we are a bit but i like diversity on my program of conversation but i would what i would glean from her is that you know i would agree with her it in the post-war era up into the 1970 s. maybe even early eighties we take the us there was a acceptance of there would be a level of prosperity of course they'd be dips but overall there would be prosperity and i think that i don't agree oh i agree with joe here in 2000 a day i came really crashing to the end because there is no. promise of

prosperity is meant to be a whole post-war paradigm was 2 things a security and prosperity and they can't deliver on that anymore and they hold the people governments hold people in contempt for not a going along with their us politics of us territory ahead. yes i think so and i grieve the schwarzenegger seminal moment it brought to power somebody who in the united states barack obama who was for the 1st time in how the member of the centrist democratic party he was somebody who seemed to be on the left of so this was a radical change but of course the radical change that his election promise and you had the 1st signs of the kind of popular insurrection against. what happened in 2008 with the occupy movement and that was very quick combination of obama.

taking it over and then you had the other police of breaking it up and that was. what then happened was that that resentment at that movement spun. taken over by donald trump who was a kind of a right wing populist and who came dramatic change to dramatic change being. end of the wasting money on foreign wars and of importing cheap labor and you know capitalism making capitalism fan for ordinary people that is what he promised in 2016 that was enough to terrify the political to war that the political establishment launched against donald trump is kind of where we are now which is the this crisis of legitimacy don't be one of the things i think is really interesting is that the the astutely the new liberal order will not give any kind of credence or legitimacy to populists on the left or the right and i think that's

really the who go where a lot of the the anger comes from here because you know you have like a bernie sanders character very popular among very wide variety of demographics but it was taken from him again because they and they don't want and if you if you look at the. publican party the g.o.p. has not changed at all you know just because trump's they're ok i mean they do everything in their power just for him ok it's still these populist. fringes is where we're told in the media they're the ones that are being denied any kind of legitimacy and actually public toral access go ahead joe. well we have to look back to 2008 what happened who paid for bailing out the banks we were told the banks are too big to fail they must not be allowed to bear the brunt of the crisis of their own system we must pay and how do we pay the working class all over the world has paid by losing

a condition security you know public service is dismantling of privatization of everything that used to be provided for us out of there with taxes out of the wealth that we create but it was a kind of guaranteed minimum that social services where they and they've been taken away privatized scrapped whatever and in different situations when they happen to be this huge attack on people's living standards and you know recently we were told just before this crash we're being told here how brilliant employment situation was now we haven't seen such good employment levels since the 17th well it was patiently along hateley like when they talk about this recovery he was recovering big bubbles in the stock market and a bubble let's not forget is a sign that something's wrong in the productive economy and means in fact there isn't someone productive to invest your capital. in gambling on the stock exchange

on the property market on the currency markets all these bubbles are not a sign that something is good with apple isn't there a sign that something is inherently wrong. and meanwhile our billionaires are gambling and taking thought years off each other on the stock market what's happening to ordinary people 0 hours contracts flex flexible working which means you don't know what you're working but you may be who is ready to just in case your employer wants you know say pay no pension no job security nothing minimum wage all big recently there was an outbreak of coding in leicester in britain and we're . we finding the conditions that lead to that lester is a town of take so many factories. and there was an obstacle in the financial times about cities so looking about the wages that are being paid which will cost minimum wage and everybody knows it everybody knows that's what's happening there's no health and safety there's no. welcome conditions now being patriarchal pounds now

but everybody knows the health and safety that tax people that national government the local government they all know and they use when can it and let it carry on the way george what if the thing that it what we're seeing right now is particularly during this crisis because it's a huge crisis of you don't have a job ok particularly. if you had taken a hit in 2008 but we just see more and more transfer wealth going upward with it in a time when we need it going in the reverse direction ok just to save those middle classes and the working class because government policies all cross the western world much more so in the united states as if the middle class isn't really necessary anymore they're paid they're trying to replace them ok with other demographics go ahead george yes yes no that is exactly the case that there is a transfer of wealth. moving outwards and that's exactly what was said by warren

buffett when he said yes as a class war that's going on and my class is winning everyone took this as a joke but of which the man warren buffett is but if i bust it reveals something fundamental about the capitalist economy. what is interesting is that. in this election that isn't coming up in that it is going to get presidential actually nice is this issue isn't and in fact instead of focusing on who is the enemy who should be you know they are the focus of our. the election party of the left is focusing its ngo on the middle guts you know when when hillary clinton talked about the basket of deplorable she meant the middle class hopefully the unite here the one percent but that is the middle class they're the enemy and you can be sure that any. democratic administration will wage

a war against people that they consider wall street as the enemy they don't consider the financial speculators the enemy. because of the sweat shop owners the enemies it's the ordinary the enemy with doing is particularly in the united states is they're focusing everything on trump because there is a lame in politics right now and it is it is to get you to go in rescue main street in the middle class nobody wants to do that because this is a job he just told us you know they told us there was no money there's plenty of money apparently ok so trump will not make that bold move and go it saved a little plus working people and of course a biting you to get there there are a talking points from a chance i mean this is so it's so gaping with what was happening right now and no one is bold enough to step up just to go ahead george had touched on something really important the majority of the media are busy trying to distract our

attention from the real problem which is of course dealing inequalities created by capitalism which is built into it but there is a crisis of legitimacy increasingly people feel this instant doesn't merely have to go to a heart breaking out to the party in europe especially a lot of legitimacy say. during the vietnam war u.s. forces also bomb to neighboring laos it was a secret war and for years the american people did not know. now my son is officially the mousepad rebound country per capita all human history millions of unexploded bombs still in danger lives in this small agricultural country jordyn wieber went on a kind of a tap and then even today kids in laos full victim to bombs dropped decades ago is

the u.s. making amends for that tragedy and what help to the people need in that little land of mines. ah no team no crowd. no shots no. action belts because. no. points your thirst for action. well the back across up were all things were considered to remind you were discussing the crisis of legitimacy.

and it was go back to bristol just the right to go into the break you want to finish your point or write it. there you see a growing sense of disconnect between the people and their government between the people in the institutions of the state which increasingly are seen not to be on their side not to be neutral not to be arbiters of justice but to be very much aligned with the interests of the rich and ruling class. the judiciary police you know the education system all of that over these last 10 years has been really exposed and then of course we've had covert crises which has extension waited exacerbated all of those inequalities in the system and laid them bare you know like never before at suny extent that we are now seeing a growing number of serious misses in the media not the ones in the media that george is talking about her busy trying to divert our attention but the the ones in

the financial times or politico who are writing you know think pieces saying if we are not careful there's going to be a revolution they don't say and that you know as well as well back in 2014 plutocrat an oligarch who nicanor billionaire wrote an article i don't know if you guys saw recalled pitchforks a tree and he expressed it talked about the massive and growing inequality in the world and in the western imperialist countries particularly the u.s. but the u.k. is not. a way that growing inequality seeing how people felt about the system and about the rich and about their future and he said if we don't do something to hold this. this disparity in this growing disparity then we are going to be in trouble we like to tell ourselves but we will be and marching will wrote a piece in the financial times just 2 weeks ago sensually saying the same thing now

these people. really want to save the system they want capitalism to be made. what people in our state and placed what they're unable to recognize is well marx and engels pointed out 150 years ago which is this growth in disparity of income and situation is hard into capitalism it isn't a way out and that is how the system works right now with a crisis like this and it's so glaring that everybody can see it and it educates well that's. what they do is george is one of the big you've already mentioned deplorable zoomie i can't you know when you and i were both coming up in the world there was a pretense of some kind of objective body from the media that is legally gone right now and we can use the example be election of donald trump and we can use brakes that i mean you know you know we know that you know the people voted the wrong way

and they had it in there there's no forgiveness for that whatsoever and that goes into this. canceling of culture or censorship i mean it what it was really quite glaring is they don't talk about social and income inequality talk about all these other cultural issues the cultural wars because if you as john pointed out if you start really seriously looking at what's going on right now the situation is it is in the long term it's untenable go ahead george prevails in an election the losing side will simply not accept it and this is in fact what happened in 2016 in which they were losing side was at will determined to sabotage an election result the didn't accept and we can be sure that whoever will be the losing side this november will react in the same way and of course that is

it works very much too early in the it's advantage. no one wants to raise the issues of how. all of the benefits of. economy flow to the one percent much less the one percent no one else gets anything out of it instead we have a warring factions hating one another who are themselves hardly beneficiaries of the system but george a kind of that touches on to the council culture thing here just one of the things that's very interesting to me is that you know we. presented this illusion of choice right here there is no choice here ok and the culture wars is a nice diversion and they do give the impression that there is a choice here because at the end of the day they're going to protect the neoliberal order that's what it is made the one percent and the good in the political elite of the media elite so wealthy and so content because if you do talk about.

income and social inequality then you're going to have to approach it differently but you know it's not about statues let's talk about cancel kocher and all of that is a diversion not that everything is racist apparently now you know if you started dealing with social inequality i think the whole issue of racism will dissipate very very quickly go ahead. well you know these latest economic crash which is being you know the narrative is that it's all the fault of the pandemic but of course the reality is this crash is in fact it was financial commentators for the last 34 years it was coming it's built into the system it systemic crisis that was long overdue kind of it's probably over the edge but in fact it was already starting to tick just before you know looked and started to happen so we have this huge crisis which is deepening inequality and i really revealing the nature of

a lot of the so-called employment that we had incredibly insecure and on top of that we've had the cloven crisis which is again exacerbated importance here and showed us how it's the must essential people who we need to keep society running who are the least paid the least respected more like it's jobs more likely to be done by the poorest and most oppressed. because all these inequalities are being deepened and of course what we're seeing as well is that women ethnic minorities are disproportionately bearing the brunt of the health crisis and the economic crisis and that so this whole deepening of all the inequalities in our society is something that they are really worried about us looking at properly and hence this move to turn the narrative away from capitalism creates inequality towards what people hate black people men hate women you know we

must fight against the symbols of sexism we must fight against the symbols of racism and so divert us from understanding the root causes you know when it comes to i'm not opposed to reeducate people who have begun to change but you've got to put the cart before the horse what's creating your attitude we have. media pumping . see immigration and anti you know anti black people richly x. house incessantly stealing our hands little currency but have to choose which then we'll then blame oh how you know if you want to get rid of racism 1st you've got to get rid of the cause of racism which is this system inequality then when people are left with some how do you know that without it it would be quite easy for them to be reeducated but i don't. consider that i'm not happy with that term ok i get a little bit. nearing for me however i mean george. carrying

a page from what we just heard here i mean it's tells me that the elites have no answer it's ok because. the status quo serves their interests and they're not willing to take or with it it's really quite amazing as we were you know we had the case of f.d.r. which you know his political posts say he was going to bring socialism to america bring communism to america but in fact f.d.r. saved capitalism save the system ok and and again historically it's because a lot of people are politically motivated they don't see it that way i mean what i find really quite glaring here is that they're not they're staring into the abyss these elites because it's it's an untenable situation to continue and i agree coben just get over it just it actually moved the curtain a way for us to have a real clear view of what's going on go ahead george know that's exactly it is an untenable situation and they answer on the part of the elites

will be to wage a war against. the masses of the people who are not benefiting at all from the system and this is what the council culture is about it's a it is about an. a kind of an expression of rage against. ordinary people against their beliefs against their institutions and so we have this bizarre situation where the elites the wealthy one percent are declaring that who is unacceptable who are the real villains say ordinary people with their suppose of racism sexism homophobia islamophobia the hillary clinton's the laura bulls they are the enemy not us not we who you know who you know vast sums of money for doing nothing will be you know who are simply sucking money out

of the economy no the enemy is you know the ordinary people and we will see an expression of this rage on the part of the elites. after the november election should the democrats win and and and they will be no you know move towards equality because they put the some kind of a socialist economic agenda that will come about no that's not going to be the case it will be the agenda again of sucking jobs out financial ization of the economy and those who feel upset about is those who feel that they were lost out of the system will be punished by told be told what did terrible people they are and that this is indeed their just punishment you know you've talked about this many times the country will explode irrespective of the outcome here the doors are running on a town real quickly i think we're taught to hate each other because i think that the vast majority of people have actually a lot of commonality it's ok and i think it's the elites in the media they're the

ones that teach us teach us to hate each other because we all most of us the vast majority of us have the same needs and desires i'm absolutely convinced of that but when you want to pull in cancel culture and you want to bring in statues you want to bring up $1619.00 in all of this year that is just to intentionally mix things. so they don't talk about what we're talking about in this program you know get rid of cancel cold turkey why don't we start canceling social inequality must when we say yes and the demolition of the statues serve 2 purposes one. that the militia is a distraction you know instead of addressing serious economic issues this serious needs the not being met you get symbolic outcomes destruction of statues but they also serve another which is to do you moralize the public to show the

public that this is what we think of you this is what we think of your history this is what we think of your culture we're tearing it down because we think you are rubbish and you have to accept that you are rubbish and this and you will be told forever that you are rubbish and that that's why the. tearing up statues down is you know how such a powerful presence you need still go to the bank laughing all the way that's all the time we want to make my guest in bristol in budapest and want to take our viewers watching us here are you see you next time remember. the 1st weighs in on the tick tock users is pretty high because they have a huge mass right so it's about camps right there and so work together and make

them create incredible structures because they're told they coordinated and so the tick tock ants in this case are have the ability to i think change election outcomes. the world is driven by shaped by. the day or thinks. we dare to ask.

the president's press conference from the new state department auditorium march 23rd 1961. i want to make a brief statement about laos. it is i think important 'd for all americans. to understand this difficult and potentially dangerous problem. these 3 maps show the area of effective communist domination as it was last august and now from december 20th now to the present day near the end of march the communist control a much wider section of the country. the position of this administration has been carefully considered. and we have sought to make it just as clear as we know how to the government's concern 1st we strongly and.