they are also influencing the it is a very the practices of big multinational that today's iraq. yeah they're enormously influential in the odd ways but they're written in a euphemism and they're written in euphemisms because it's politically impossible in the united states to advise eating less of anything that has a industry behind it and that makes a lot of money. as i'm going to say over and over again we know what a healthy diet is it means not too much for one for one thing and even less is very very bad for business it doesn't make anybody rich if people eat less food other coated 19 pandemic has illustrated how reporting today is for people to eat healthily because the people who are at very high risk for this disease

are people who are overweight or have chronic diseases already sort of dietary guidelines are extremely important in helping people understand where to eat but they are so heavily politicized it's almost impossible to understand we're being me now i actually want to seize on this point because you're making the a dollar notes on how big corporations are abusing. trade on science on power on people how but i think it wasn't until they called it 19 that the full damage of those practices really hit home as as just sat the lethality of this virus as with many other viruses was super charged by the problems of. diet and g.'s disease list and i just wonder if that would put an additional sort of political impetus on those scientists to

perhaps at least when it comes to public recommendations to change the advice. did . says far as we can tell is going to be pretty much the same as a whole always has been only a little bit more strict in recommend and recommending limits unsaturated fat which is a euphemism for meat. and on salt and sugar and alcohol salt and sugar are you from isn't safe for highly processed foods and alcohol that he knows about new dietary guidelines recommendations from the advisory committee are expected to say that people should not drink more than one drink a male who are doing it in order to maximize their health now there is a recently aired just a few days ago an article in the washington post which also suggests that that the board is going to recommend every direction into consideration of added sugars from

i think 10 percent of daily calories to 6 percent of the data daily calories if that is true that is actually a reversal of. u.s. policy when it comes to you know it's an extension of the policy the dietary guidelines have always recommended restrictions and sugar this one is much more specific and is the most restrictive that there's ever been and they've always said eat less sugar that's not new what's use is 60 percent which is roughly in the ballpark of what the world health organization recommended a year ago isn't it ironic that the scientists that kind of in the chunk of ministration would recommend something in line to the recommendations of the world health organization that and eyes me a bit stupid about sugar i have a crack here in moscow quote incidentally works for toxic i whenever we discuss

those issues he always tells me not to demonize sugar is it possible to demonize sugar. is there any stuff and that's done more damage to the public how that causes more doubts and my bitties online i completely disagree i don't think it's it's sugar alone it's killer if where you're concerned about is overweight or weight is about calories and it doesn't matter where the calories come the columns that hilaly loves the taste and sugar and he want any foreign oil owner of foods that have sure the i don't think he should. about sugar i don't think we should be talking about saturated fat and i don't think we should be talking about song we should be talking about the foods that are the major sources of those nutrients there are not enough to how is that possible that all calories are equal i mean a calorie of celery if very different seller is very different from candy but the

calories are the same and you can get fat eating celery if you eat enough of it it would be difficult but it's possible because obesity is a matter of keller's sugar makes you want to eat more sat makes you want to eat more but if you look at what happens in the body a telephone is a killer and that's where dietary recommendations are so confusing because they talk about new entry and so not foods they are be talking about foods all i add back to disagree respectfully and i personally lost 35 kilograms by having sugar out of my diet and that it was glorious you cut your kid. if you cut out the foods that contain sugar or terror carbohydrates or anything else you're going to be cutting gary if you get downgraded to healthier calories but anyway clearly there

is that we disagree on on big issue of sugar but one of the parts. and that i want to talk excuse me we don't disagree and i think everyone would be healthier eating less sugar talking specifically about sugar sweetened sugar sweetened beverages there's been a long. if in the united states to introduce some sort of a tax and some communities haven't managed to do that but by and large policy makers have kept their wrists back to bill distance from there is beverage companies if we actually believe the washington post story but at 1st time after the guidelines i'm going to recommend a ban on sugary drinks for children before they get to now this is this is mind boggling i think to the rest of the world because that you don't need to be a scientist not to give your here or your baby

a coke how did these companies become so powerful so that something like these needs to be actually put them on paper and put in the form of. office i have into and seeding bottles with soft drinks a low road softer globo otos of companies so the server companies some years ago marketed directly to the babies may be in the bottles with soft drink logos on them and there was evidence he said people who bought those bottles with the softer local the softer. and there is considerable evidence that in the united states. that there are measure who very. soft drinks that are being given. to truly good. comedians since you have recommended against giving some drinks to children they have also not been able to reach consensus on the other important

issues for example that apparently there is they couldn't reach a definitive opinion on whether there is any connection between the consumption of added sugar and type 2 diabetes. isn't there really possessed because of liberties that's why the killer is is so important. is very strongly related to being overweight and to over consumption of calories and it doesn't matter where the calories come from so the evidence is complicated because whenever you talk about a single through substance here you're already is something that something is true because you must always take. into consideration i mean most of the opponents of let's say peter diet would tell you that saturated fat has been part of our guy who are not just centuries from millenia i mean our body well i have not said that

that's different from sad and general also talking about how he facts about and natural foods but also traded sugar is a very very me about this and our bodies have never 'd had the machinery of dealing with it again and that's not that is that all the counter argument against sugar as an unnatural substance. yes except that people love the taste and it's very difficult to ban something that people love eating i don't think i think bodies can handle sugar quite well they just can't handle a lot of that it one time and so any advice to restrict the amount 'd of sugar seems like a really good idea to me or to try to galleries you leave the rest of your diet for healthier foods but to tell people not to consume sugar when it's delicious and everybody loves it seems seem not to make much sense one of the wonderful things

about food is that it's one of life's greatest pleasure and personally i like a little sugar in my diet a little not a which i mean that how do you make a difference between a little and. a lot because clearly sugar has addictive qualities i mean there are many many studies that show that it pretty much hijacks the same pathways estj every other it dictates substance i mean maybe your have a particularly strong will or a specific genetics that allow you to stay with it then it but is it also a case in those individuals that. statement eating a lot a little and not getting addicted to it well food is wonderful life's greatest pleasures and whenever you eat something that is treasure full in that that gives you pleasure it has an effect on your brain and there are people who feel that they're addicted to sugar they should avoid sugar isn't that also something that

the food companies perhaps exploit you know much the fact that some people cannot consume in moderation especially when it comes to sugary products well i think it's important to understand that the food companies are not social service agencies and they're not public health agency their business is whose job it is to sell food and if they're potent traded businesses then they have stockholders to please and that is their primary responsibility so to expect food companies not to make foods with sugar because it would be better to people's health is quite unrealistic in our current business environment well perhaps another we have to take every very short break now but don't be back in just a few moments. we

go to work see you straight home. during the vietnam war u.s. forces also bomb to neighboring laos it was a secret war. and for years the american people do not know. how much it is officially in the mouth catherine bond country per capita. human history millions of unexploded bombs still in danger lives in this small agricultural country jordyn

wieber. even today kids in laos full victim to bombs dropped decades ago is the u.s. making amends for that tragedy and what help to the people need in that little land on.

bottom back to old apartment marion nestle professor emeritus of nutrition foods that is in public health at new york university professor nestle all of your books are all to mentally about work rate tricks to increase profits and to some extent we extracted part race to do that i think with the call that 9000 pandemic we all can see be imagined stalled these practices have on both societies at large and personal how they axed analogies as the economist put it a much greater than the profit jesus thing this pandemic provides and that's a good key can be got to change things around. well i'm hoping that some

good will come out of the code of 911 demagogue i'm not seeing it yet but the hope is that people will have a much greater understanding of food systems work and will. provide much more political support for curbs from country excesses for insistence that foods be healthier and that we have a much more healthy and sustainable food supply i'm keeping fingers crossed about that ever said before it's kind of understandable that corporations what try to preserve their products and then most favorable lie that's the nature of marketing i wonder how where do you draw the line that when. marketing. the deceit and the abuse of the consumers well i think their place where the line is easiest to draw isn't marketing to children i don't think food companies should

marketed children at all actually i don't think that anybody should market to children at all so that's an easy place to draw the line. where the if companies are making products that people feel like they are addicted to like soft drinks for example soft drinks are the easiest example because they can change sugars in water and nothing else of nutritional value and they are consumed in very large quantities and advertised very heavily to children among other people and so there i think it's an easy. kinder frailer turi situation because you can just say if you're going to buy a soft drink it has to be in a very small mant anything other than softer gets you into a much more complicated situation because the foods that sugars appear in many of

those foods have nutritional value and so rare you draw the line is a complicated one but you could say that you would tax companies on the basis of the amount of sugar in their products countries that are doing that we're finding that people are consuming less sugar in those countries that's a group think now we often hear out from you and other experts that at big foot companies are also using that are for after age or it's you know out of the big tobacco is playbook and they have an additional argument of saying that food is different from tobacco because you actually need to leave but i actually i want a that applies to processed look because. you know as far as i'm concerned there very few products that let's say coca-cola produces apart from bottled water that doesn't cost active harm to people's health and the same goes for or out most of

those companies that produce cookies and other happily processed foods be called them plebs don't you think that there actually should be a distinction between natural or proper or you know real foods and the processed ones. well it's a process that really is causing the problem and these are categories of foods that don't resemble the foods from which they were extracted or are created that are not within gritty instead are not found in who kitchens and that have a lot of branded sultan sugar and there is now an enormous amount of evidence that shows that consumption of ultra processed foods is associated with overweight gaining weight chronic diseases that are associated with overweight and that these are not very healthy products and this is relatively new data that's only comment molest 5 years and i'm interested to see whether the dietary guidelines say

anything about processed foods i hope they do what's complicated about food and that makes it much more complicated than cigarettes cigarettes or simple don't smoke. foods are more complicated because it's really ok to eat ultra processed foods in small amounts and here you get right back into the same issue of quantity because a lot on it is really don't matter and give people a lot of pleasure how many cigarettes you once in a while also doesn't cause. there is no lid there's no place at which smoking is healthy and doesn't that apply just as much to your sugar sweetened beverages or let's say the fat ass old ass chocolate in the united states because it's almost impossible i didn't know any nutritionist who was the slightest bit concerned about an 8 ounce softer and once in

a while i think what people are all i want to get is not a scientist he's a journalist but i'm pretty sure if he is somebody who would be well i disagree with him i think the evidence does not indicate that small amounts of sugar or older process. so harmful is a quantitative issue that's very difficult to talk about conceptually if you're having trouble start to look and added to that to the fact that there is legitimate disagreement among scientists there is also he's not he's not scientists well there are many scientists i know and i have interviewed on this show that strongly disagree with your point of view that calories a calorie we have already discussed that but that's not my point that the point i was trying to make is that it's ok for scientists to disagree over things i mean that's how do you see what they're paid for and that's how the scientific knowledge is produced but i think one of the your rich latest book made it makes an excellent

point that scientific debate is now being modeled by a very deliberate industry affray to do it in my eyes any science that goes lightly against that narrative can you talk more about that. well know my most recent book is called unsavory truth and it's about how food companies pay for research that they can use for marketing purposes. so they provide funding and scientists take the funding and do the research and the research that is paid for by industry woolston variably comes out with results that favor the sponsors or commercial interests and this happens not because the companies are buying the scientists it happens because the influence is unconscious it occurs at a subconscious level there's a huge amount of evidence that shows this and the i don't think this kind of

research should be done i wish there were some other way for scientists to get money to do the research that they do now as a russian i have to ask you this question because in that book here share the story of how your name handed out and not clinton's hacked e-mails it just happened so that a woman who was on paper all at coca-cola was also simultaneously providing advice to kill or it clinton's campaign and it was in active communication where by the president of callable on matters of policy i know you're concerned about you know scientists being influenced by the industry but you have any qualms about. somebody like this collecting a paycheck from one of the largest corporations and advising presidential candidate potentially one of the most powerful people. well india says to corporations do they try to influence politicians and in the united states we have an election

campaigns that are funded by corporations. with no limit on the amount of money that corporations can give to candidates really in through complicated ways but the supreme court has said. that there do not need to be any limits on corporate campaign contributions that's an enormous problem in american politics you mention that. matter factory but this is actually i think if you're going to the russians really are cynical people but this is absolutely mind boggling i mean if you don't go into the story of this depression marshall this lady that was working for the clinton's campaign but with some research i found out that she was providing coke with strategic consulting and marketing work whilst rassi her former credentials as the chief of protocol at the state department bench specifically told them a training on commercial diplomacy commercial on says that no they euphemism for

special interests is not around when you're you happen to remember that the revelations about this from the hacking of hillary clinton's e-mails or which apparently were done by people in your country and you will have a hard time convincing me that people in your country don't do exactly the same thing maybe we don't know about that but we are not positioning ourselves as the you know shining city on that here but. there is actually a lot of back and forth between the russians and americans about whether the russians or that i'm not the kremlin you perhaps know denies it but in any case do you think it was in in the public's interest for something like this is not why i wrote about it of course it's not in the public interest i don't think that government should be beholden to corporations that's a that's a method of corrupting government that we fight against all the time in the united

states not always successful unfortunately this was a particular example in which i happened to get caught up because some no. some lecture i had given in australia were forwarded struve these hacked e-mails. you know in some way that i just had no idea that this kind of things going on i actually thought it was quite funny to be caught up in this major political involvement when i'm just an intrusion as you know talking about nutrition and teaching students and writing books i'm not making a case for interfering in anyone's that elections but. it strikes me as not just a political campaign because after those multinational companies operate in the same way abroad and maybe even. cannot possibly be true these companies

work this way in every country in which they're allowed to and you cannot convince me that the same things don't happen in your country they do why they me i really just have no way of knowing it and my point is different by point russian and fortunately we have ways of knowing me knowing you don't not knowing if the americans publish out that does not benefit from this knowledge unfortunately their whole day year's day new dietary guidelines can improve that but anyway we have to leave it there thank you very much for sharing your insights oh my pleasure and thank you for watching poultice here next week on world apart.

we are segregated only by social class lower middle class people also in poverty by 1st place if you're born into a poor family ah you're born into a minority family if you're born into a family that only has a single parent that really constrains your life chances people die on average 15 years old a good morning to generational poverty. insofar as the stuff fight every day to meet your needs and the needs of your family.

so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have it's crazy for him to let it be an arms race move his arms off and spearing dramatic development only personally i'm going to resist i don't see how that strategy will be successful very critical daryn time to sit down and talk. i 1st heard about you know. from the helicopter. in iraq. i think that there are people going in and going to his military who have never forgiven or forgotten frater the truth of the book and every little bit of it we saw it was really the story you have. independent journalists. you got to see a lot of problems to open up an audience. the idea of developing an

anonymous digital trombones and applying it to the media consensus. that was approached. to try to. with me. right in the room one of the world's most. unusual women that your husband has never seen or heard founder of the song give a song. and there was a great deal of the money for the song you're going to why won't people like they have hugh seen all. instantly. his mind. right now. we have giuliani sides in solitary confinement in the prison for terrorist i wait you don't have a life person. i don't see him dying.

and i. know what he's facing. in the stories that shape the way in care a nazi russia rejects claims it meddled in last year's election in the u.k. and tried to steal information on the country's corona virus vaccine and also to come data files false to children in germany for decades in europe older fields and the authorities knew about it all along we hear from the victims every day was mental and physical mistreatment and we were forced to do things we wouldn't normally do because we were threatened our life should be destroyed leon able to work and we have become aware that we are just a pile of misery and china says it will hit back following president trump.