maybe they are at least rhetorically but reality tells a very different story and it's bipartisan the commanding heights of industry and finance have courted china for decades and have the riches to show for it is this china's fault. to discuss this and more i'm joined by my guest sarah issue in knoxville she is a visiting scholar at fudan university and in beijing we cross the jungle he is a professor at the university of international business and economics are across up rules in effect that means you can jump in he time you want and i always appreciate ok let's go to sarah and not still i'm sorry what role is china playing in the american election because i said in my introduction both biden and trump want they like to if they're shown these apps ok that ad versus ad very anti china obviously

but i don't see it really making much of an impact on the electorate because there are so many other issues there's the pandemic there is an economic turndown and all the sudden it's all china's fault somehow believe me i understand what that feels like living in russia but it's there yeah i think that you know that's certainly something that birth handler illiberal have asked you interest because china has been such a big part of president travels a whole you know policy agenda and so i think that's something that is really important on the list some experts think that it's you know one of the top one or 2 or 3 issues 'd i don't know that it has that certainly agree with that but it's something that they have to address but i think you know both candidates are talking about china in a negative way anythings on china's certainly their coronavirus endemic rates you mentioned you know president trappist stated that it's led to a mass worldwide killing and said that china come. and biden hasn't done much

better to be honest about it and you know both candidates have talked about being tough on china we've definitely seen president trump's track record in terms of the trade war we've heard yet it biden talked about the fact that he wished prohibit u.s. companies from abetting repression wanted quote at supporting the chinese surveillance states also talking about imposing economic sanctions on beijing and so these are this is something that definitely is in the air although right now i think they occur on a virus issue is on the top of the list could have been here i mean yeah i think as i said i consider my introduction and it's a lot of written rhetoric because the captains of industry in finance have done extremely well in their interactions with china over the last few decades i don't think they want to see that change one iota so i'm on the one hand i think it's

very rhetorical. and it incites passions and emotions but i don't see the c.e.o.'s and presidents of companies doing very much about. putting into play the rhetoric of either candidate and i think it's real it's actually quite hollow though it does seem designed nice to some people. well the problem is that the companies the congress the part of copper america that has been benefiting from you know disco against a trade or asian ships as well as investment ratios china don't get any sympathy from present trump and his folks i think this entire. campaign in 2016 going to why house has been behind a series that china has be steering the jobs market companies go moving to china together we just shops and he's appealing to is political base that i've been

pretty much you know perceived as the victims of that the move but. this is actually you know fundamentally as a comic some work but unfortunately you know his entire political pop though is based on death 'd theory so unfortunately you know compromise test benefit the message he found the china relationships the trade between the 2 countries amount to a $700000000000.00 company marcus operation here in china the reach somewhere between $400.00 to $500000000000.00 of revenue. as a lot of money for america but the thing is that. is political but it doesn't benefit or not from dad and he really had any sympathy yet you did tax these people this corporate leaders of being you know operating again in china so so his entire mandate is to quit in my opinion of corporate america out of china and his entire you know champion towers against china is based on

a theory that you know should go to congress. but united states and china so ok i don't know if this actually benefits united states from economic one of you but unfortunately that's what he believes and you know we can debate about that after x. off this trade. there's no empirical evidence showing up in just a hook as a trial strategy doesn't matter to me is it is not a hallmark of 4 years of all. that did. you know that's that's his sources coming from unfortunately he wanted to have china being a champion issue in 2020 an actual problem is that today you know china has entirely in fact an operation is less than one day sofa 4 in fashion united states that this white you know the china issue is inevitably connected to this

mismanagement and total fiasco in content of house and house this so this is not the more as forward on one side he has to clean up the childish you i'm just on the other side it reminds of american people of the shah contrast between china and united states respect to the congo policy issue but don't give the american media that much credit and the american public knows virtually nothing about china at the end of the day here sir i'm going to put you on the spot here can you name can you fit give me what a one job one shot that china stole from america and you think of one job because i know a lot of jobs that were taken out of america by americans and brought to china to give to chinese workers i think i hear this china stole just didn't steal one job it's the captains of industry and finance that moved their operations is that china's all or is it their fault but it's certainly an american carrier and i think that's that's really where the jeffrey is wrong here go ahead yeah i mean i read it

really that. the rhetoric is incorrect it was you know politicians and also the captains of industry as you say who are in charge of moving jobs especially manufacturing jobs out of america manage to china and here not mention mexico into all these other countries in the name of free trade and while i believe that free trade is a good thing because it helps us to buy lots of cheap stuff you know and raise our standard of living our low salaries can help to a more eroding salaries can help to to buy more stuff as a result of that. government has not put into place appropriate protections for american low income or middle income workers and you know that's really the big concern but notwithstanding all of that you know there really are some issues with

china that i think that you know they're trying to administration has not really guy since year it's not about china causing coronavirus or stealing jobs or whatever or having a trade surplus with us none of that makes sense but it is true that china has and continues to steal and selectional property from the u.s. that is a major issue here is also that china continues to be to rampa its aggression towards hong kong that's another piece of this long qantas part of china if i'm not mistaken correct it is but it was supposed to be governed separately one country 2 systems and yeah i really didn't want to go into hong kong as you but if you want to so what should the u.s. do i mean i mean what do you know beijing is watching what's going on in portland you know it's a good time to say something about that to china to punish america for what's going

on in oregon i mean it's i mean double standard. huge double standard errors it is i mean i don't think they you know i don't subscribe to the view that the u.s. has to be the policemen of the world i think that is too much of a. you know a loaded role though for that for us to take on but i do think you know that the u.s. needs to respond and that the west somehow needs to respond to this type of promotion of authoritarian as a violation of human rights those are basic things that i think there should be some response year now why should the response be i don't know that it should be economic sanctions per se i think that's fairly me it seems to be watching after a year of these protests in hong kong as if these are the leaders of these groups that actually ended up with a net loss for all the people of hong kong ok so i think it was kind of a fool's errand and now you have people like my campaign or talking about human

rights are you kidding me the secretary of state is talking about human rights i mean gitmo is still open ok so i don't see any moral standing on the side of the united states to talk about china's human rights record at all john you want to jump in on that go ahead laura ask me 1st address this issue not needing to knock your property as. so ross mansion i think this is of course why i think this is a. gross country again a campaign coming from white house coming on this trump i'm afraid i mean let's talk about you know cyber theft of intellectual property now there are many going to have to. be done hackers from russia i have from 4 the united states these are 1st of all i don't think in trying to try not to get a comment 2nd china has the largest population we have. people so natural republic

the largest population of. cyberspace you know you shipment this to a sort of space concert. the whole of the nation approach to syria market it's not 2 properties that's just crazy i mean give me a warning example of one technological achievement as a result of you know american auction properties you know that get any advantage if you didn't have a lot of talk about this in the past in the media the last 2 years or so but if you don't show all of this this this profit and i'll just acquisitions you get down to the details find one example that actually substantiated one i had earlier and. i went through ally advisors session 30 report is 200 page report. is talking about order to dr properties after that kind of thing is i mean these are examples 1st of all i think your 2nd warning 1020 years ago did not have a clear there's

a kind of a middle ground on this is well is it is my understanding and i'm happy to be corrected if i'm wrong here but a lot of the joint ventures in american companies foreign companies in china it entailed technology transfers as part of the deal did you business there so i mean if you signed the dotted line you can't say you didn't know go ahead. yeah i mean i would just say you know what i was saying is that there are actually inside of it in there is state sponsored hacking of american firms and european firms and also government entities and you know i'm actually pretty pro choice that i you know stealing intellectual property is is not a good way to compete on the world stage and it doesn't create a good feeling or a sense of fair competition. most recently their work you heard it on here i have to jump in here we have to go to

a hard break and after that hard to get your discussion on china's role in the american elections david are. on the last of the baby boomers or speculating in the 19 ninety's on the birth of companies that went public for the 1st time and they would have these pops and then there was this enormous crash where the jhansi are speculating on the death of companies and companies that are dying and declaring their dead companies and they're flying ploughing their way and just like to lay down on the death of a company. forced and illegal takeover of a government by a small group. rather than revolutionaries also just conduct small group the operation when you have a tiny group of people who have all the power you have to have some means to make

sure the rest of us don't get together and take it back. these are sacrificing. places that capitalism exploited and destroyed for profit and left behind misery poverty environmental devastation and so you see things like voter suppression building more prisons you seem to. and all sorts of undemocratic practices are wealthy in the world are wealthy and. there's no question that the court in town is. welcome to cross where all things are considered on peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing china's role in the us election.

oh it was go back to it now it's all share a right before we went to the break you try to make a point go right ahead you are still most recently there were 2 half years who were indicted by the us shall you and your and they were accused of hacking not only you know for their own benefit but also hacking on the how of the governments and their actual individuals from the governments one particular individual from the ministry of security who is identified as working with these hackers so the. narrative about these hackers is no and types of attacks that they carried out is also known and they weren't deeds yelling intellectual property for biotechnology firms for. medical device engineering firms and from the military you know of course trying to not allow that china is

responsible for 40 percent of global hacking well he lives in the interest i think we need to be fair the way it's reported by the u.s. government in the media is that only countries that america doesn't like tax them ok hacking is going on all the time it's a very lucrative illegal profession for a lot of people and some people do it for governments no doubt about it but just single china only. it is doing that it's like you know russia half the the american election well there were certainly individuals that were if your password was password you probably would get hacked ok mr podesta ok sorry we're hearing so so sorry i did not ready to date that's a lot. less are you going to claim that i never claimed that the cia the n.s.a. i'm not engaged in any of these activities i mean this is the biggest fairy tale if you could tell me that everybody does that so you know this is no surprise to me and also many refer to one part of the history that in our states was engaged

a massive. amount of foreign national as far as i was one that was an 80 hunter and that sort of i was 80900 why united states engage in that you know activities to steal. attacks now technologies frank ring of benjamin franklin in the embassador to paris was the. response network of stealing textile technologies. castle a name gun. there was a wonderful time in history that 'd you had states was pretty much you know simply just china right now be the united states so i'm going to this is something that has been done in the us i think you know about it you know why the government and he should tell activities like this but i think china is trying to do this i mean i think as part of the trade agreement. the 1st phase of the train agreement is

something regarding that aspect that there is much china and he's from the state governments a perspective is not going to you know a sponsor all as well as you know trying to tell private activities going up let us be trying to do these things for commercial benefits so these are issues that can be addressed not to. try to get it really. i mean. this is one of the thing i think very very broadly and one of the things that's really misunderstood about china at least from an american point of view is that it's very difficult for americans in the american political elites to see china as an equal peer because the united states hasn't had one for 6 or so very long. and you know if we could go back to you people are talking about the new a new cold war with china that i think that's true ok but you know during the original cold war in the united states versus the soviet union is that the soviet union had very specific high technologies in the military but not other places

china has almost everything that you could imagine to be an american peer industry well for technology actually it has a unified people america is very very divided here as well and one of the reasons why it's hard for americans the tape china as a peer seriously would you agree with. i don't know yeah i think that certainly people of your china as a pet it or at least a competitor. that is. worse but so is you know germany for example but i think you know people see china as an increasing aggressor that is that's the major issue i think between the u.s. and china and you know these intellectual property issues have been going on for many years i should also point out that you know under obama his agreement with the

president and because of their diplomatic strong diplomatic relations trying to stop attacking us or several years until trump was an office and so you know these are theories there are some things that can be worked out diplomatically but at the same time we see china's increasing aggression in the south china sea. you know you also see what american interest is there in the south china sea because if i'm not mistaken it's called the south china sea because it's near china not to put that money in california it might be my problem. i think the idea is that you know that the u.s. needs your feels the need to and i'm not saying that you know this is necessarily right but the u.s. feels the need to ante in what it views as an increasingly aggressive china and even under obama you know secretary has made it inside hillary clinton iraq trying to find aggression here what do you mean by. well gentry's

china invaded recently. well we're talking about is increasing military activity certainly that's a sign of aggression and also. the other there. you noted statements from the pacific american lake i mean it don't you think it was maybe an opinion on the head john. i wouldn't say problem well. enough regret aggression i mean 1 i don't know if you've heard about them the dean principal michael levine used to work for the pentagon is a very famous 8 average 10 years ago every 10 years also you know stays in to pick up some crap in a new country to sort of gas to walk to me we were to meet we took to thomas street in a war that we mean business i mean if you look back you history it's not a was every 10 years ago or so it's like you know once every 3 or 4 years a whole you know law states pick up some crappy little country is the one against

the war to show to understand that you're there to. tell us also to just to say that you know china is aggressive i think it's it's makes a mockery of the word aggression you know and i also speak you know the south china sea i want to make a point that you know. the trump ministration just a few days ago. secretary of state. statement was that he chants united states traditional condition on the issue of honesty used to be mutual not just taking a side and it's also championing. but it's a major biddell that united states doesn't own a cell ok. you know i think this is behind us rhetorics. all along. progress indeed it was china i think the fact that china has been at the camp the punched. back off you noticed they just showed it to me because something

i'm not sure of that united states puzzle i'm not at all also i think very important is that the american response to to the pandemic has been is nothing less than a disaster ok there's comparisons you can have all around the world we don't have to use chinese the comparison if you don't want you can use europe is a very good example and i think that's projecting and i think it's kind of sad and blaming china is a good that you're not to explain why the reason single payer health care like everywhere else in the world ok i think that's one part of syria i don't want to see a new cold war i don't want to see a conflict here is it just because we're in the silly season of the american presidential election or is there is it is this real and if you could give maybe beijing's perspective is the united states going to ratchet up the the rhetoric and me even more in the face of this rivalry go ahead well i think you know if we have

a continued track they're going to stray share and we will and i definitely don't support at a chinese rhetoric and i'm just you know saying that it's out there and stating that there actually are some things that need to be worked out not through a trade war or sanctions or things like that but diplomatically we really need to improve diplomatic relations with china doesn't make sense to go to war or go to a cold war with china you know we've seen for many decades that's how we've developed the u.s. has developed close ties to china and its benefited both countries so you know it honestly it doesn't really make any kind of sense economically for the 2 countries to be at odds to this extends with each other. and the world is big enough for both countries i wish i wish that the american political elite could understand that you know let me go back to this is something i mean again i'm watching the media all the time and you know up until. well i would think maybe up until

february it was china and now since there is a communist china it's the it's the communist party pandemic i mean this goes over and over again and upon the mistaken it not as a communist country but nobody even exists be it now because it has that political order i mean if this is it it's really intentionally done to. to sway passions here and i think it doesn't really do serve any positive purpose go ahead then as there was a campaign guideline that was developed by you comes on company for the. republican. committee how do you come to any basic and it's talking about how to make the use of the chinese. to be a campaign issue but the problem is that you know as i said as an trungpa seeing his losing this campaign he's trying. all of these. various swing states.

michigan his moves in big as a business trying to big even in florida he's actually trying to put it back in those that is based on numbers in the white house now i am really concerned and he will do something drastic traumatic in the rest of this administration days you see today the news that he's already shown us house in office use them to quote you know i think it's not entirely father wrote that he would do something drastic where people been talking about the silent this relationship has been experiencing a free for all it's actually more than a free for all i think he's trying to stir up something really great. do you really mean yeah just that it's. going to get well what it was able to do and it's not a lot of information isn't just have to be true because there's plenty of it you know the pentagon looks at china and it sees a lot of money it's good business you know a real enemy i mean we need to spend

a lot more money as the country out the country is or and there's no sign that there's no assistance for the middle class and i think that's what really should be the debate here i want to make yes not still and in beijing and i want to thank our viewers for watching as you're our you see you next on remember. syria has been engulfed in civil war for almost 10 years it's cost hundreds of thousands of lives and displaced millions more no $1.00 foresaw the peaceful protests of 20 of them is collating into a complex conflict between various armies geopolitical interests rebel groups and jihadists. have never. had a on the on the dock on this if but if you tell us if you say

in the hague because i'm. best at the short look cool and. deep conflict. quite. close to what amounted. to an ordinary has sat that i. missed south and the other day and then initiated what i did i'm going to hate a shot then he. no one else chose seemed wrong. but old rules just don't hold. the world to get to shape out just because the educated and in detroit because

betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground. you cannot be both with b.s. you look. good. problem drugs don't do is come from unscrupulous dealers but from pharmacies to in every state in the united states we've seen the very sharp increase in the number of people seeking treatment for addiction to prescription opioids and invented

america under the banner of medicine persisted with the pain but instead of trying to wean him off though she just goes after dose after dose after dose and really became his drug dealer so who's to blame patients doctors manufacturers all the governments. in the headlines this friday the u.k.'s opposition labor party is pushing for artie's broadcast license to be revoked and a letter to britain's supposedly independent t.v. regulator here's how an artsy u.k. house reacted to the revelation. we don't know the woods sakia stallman's shout to you but would you kill children sport secretary in a private letter sent to this independent regulator saying it was telling that urgently i need.