as well. which your thirst for action. hello and welcome to cross talk we're all things are considered i'm peter lavelle u.s. secretary of state my comp a.o. is on a mission he claims the world must change china or china will change us how should we interpret this a cold war to be waged against beijing there's also imply or regime change china is certainly a major global competitor but is it now our enemy. to

discuss this and more i'm joined by my guest beguile in beijing he is chair professor and so child university and in stand where we cross to daniel wagner he is c.e.o. of country risk as well as author of china vision the america china dubai and his new book on the belt and wrote initiative in chinese or texas right gentlemen crossed up rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it ok let's go to beijing richard the words that you know the world must change turning over china will change just how do you interpret that because so many commentators and one policy or one role if you. would use the speech at the nixon library a big bewildering because it's taking today's circumstances in the post cold war in kind of reverting back to when using the same kind of language and i want to talk

about the ideological. i mean china will is changing as. well 1st of all i see in my own quails speech at the richard nixon presidential library was an insult to those nixon political legacy and it's an insult to china u.s. relations for more then 4 to one yes not talking about change i would say no other country has changed them all then china has over the past all to yes and if that changes are good for chinese people's interest of course i would work up whatever changes we can bring along if the changes are to stop china's economic rise i think all the chances people will unite behind the chinese government to oppose and fight against those changes i think what pale is talking about is that china should no longer develop as shallow as you give up the rights of peaceful rise and this is

what the townspeople can never accept china neat changes the laws of data if the changes will change china for the better and will improve the living standards of the chinese people and these changes out what china opposite but these changes are exactly the opposite of what people at home pale and wishing for so we are at a very important crossroad ng in world history and china's economic development is a major trends no what can stop china's economic development ok daniel how do you how did you react to the mike pump a 0 speech at the nixon library because a lot of people in a surprising number and said it is the this isn't a drawing a line in the sand is that is that what we need right now and it is that is his message go ahead i think 1st of all the reason that he chose that venue is because

back in the 1970 s. when kissinger and nixon opened up the door to us china relations i think there was an acknowledgment at the time he. i hope that what might happen is that there would not only be a peaceful rise which of course everyone wants and everyone agrees with generally but they also were presuming that if there was enough exposure to the west if there was a good relationship between the u.s. and china and the west more generally that china would gradually liberalized politically and it would change into something other than what it was of course that didn't happen and i think the reason that it shows that venue is because if he had known that maybe that wasn't going to happen that maybe he would have thought twice about exactly how he did what he did but that all said i think the u.s. government the u.s. people they certainly acknowledge that china is a very important and significant country it's not going anywhere i don't think the

american government know what no matter what it's come composition would dream of suggesting that china is not going to continue its rawest i think it's clearly an unstoppable trend even if there was a desire no one would be capable of doing it so i think it's it's really an acknowledgement of where we are in sinar u.s. relations at the present time you know really. i thought my comp aon misinterpreted richard nixon's opening because he is if you look at the historical record we have to remember this was in the middle of the cold war we and it was a nickname finally acknowledged mentioned in in the washington elite that it was a rift between the soviet union and china and the nixon's damned it was to get to triangulate to get in there and into work all off how all your extras work players work in simultaneously and it actually works to the benefit of all 3 of may but i

mean my campaign was interpreted is that china nixon's intent was to change the internal order china and i think that's a misrepresentation of the historical record this is about foreign policy go ahead . absolutely i actually had the great honor and privilege of working for richard nixon when he visited china in 1985 as a private citizen and we travel together to several cities in china in addition to beijing nixon impressed me a great deal with his vision with his historical perspective and also with his kerry for china u.s. relations so i see what my own pail did in the nixon presidential library is a sekret it is a really an insight of the nixon historical legacy no i think what the united states needs to do is to figure out a way to get along with china whether us is bigger than china or whether china is

bigger than us it doesn't matter that much the key is for china the united states the 2 largest economies in the world they need to get in there are with each other and you knew to figure out a way to deal with each other's differences for example with respect rather than go into each other's juggler rather than trying to wrestle the other side down to the ground because that's not possible the more pressure people i promptly helpful on china the more resilient china becomes and the more the chinese people are rally behind the chinese communist party in our culture are the channels communist party is the largest the political party in the world with more than 93000000 members so i don't think i'm pale really knows what he's talking about the chinese people are really very much united will accomplish plenty of china why because they eat improve the living standards of the chinese people they fight off the coronavirus they save people in the middle of the curler batters even those people in that mine

tips for example this is why the commies idea of china in china earns a lot of credential analyser is facts and support from the chinese people song i. whatever it wishes my popeil may have is they should is alicia's all futility. daniel one of the things they find very curious and it kind of you don't tales in with the rise of this pandemic is that for some reason the united states with its current political order and the political order in china run by the communist party as we've just heard here all the sudden they can't co-exist it's really quite remarkably nice they co-existed 1st 70 years but a little last 4 months all i hear is communist china the communist party of china is thrown into the media here i mean is it something new it's not new how do you explain that well a part that's new as everybody understands at least here in america is that the

trump administration really is no longer taking china at its word that it's going to do certain things we know for example that in the obama administration there was an effort to stop cyber intrusions and sarah back into any team she and obama had agreed and then you know a month or 2 later they were back at it so i think there's an acknowledgement that the gloves are off that something fundamental has to change in the relationship and that china is no longer going to quote have its way with america whether it is these of the trade or in terms of cyber traditions or the theft of intellectual property the difference is now that the trumpet administration has basically said this will not stand in here longer we don't care if it has an impact on the bilateral relationship something fundamental has to change now i don't agree with strong about very much at all but i do agree that it's important to tackle you know very fundamental aspects of international relations and this is one of the i mean

clearly the nature of that relationship could not continue going on the way that it was and is trying to credit a lot not accustomed to credit him for much i think that it ultimately will prove to be. useful that the gloves are off and that there will be something fundamental that will change in this relationship that hastert pm daniel having said that that if the gloves are off the gloves are off to both sides because yes i mean you know bigger and you know i am not in the intelligence community and i cannot speak with authority here but. i think it is a default that countries buy on each other in the with the more more powerful and richer and more resources you have the more you're going to apply it in the way the american media is always spinning it is it only china is doing this only in china and there's no it's not never mentioned that this is part of the state ok i'm not going to bow to the chinese government any more than i'm going to bow to the u.s. government considering the weapons of mass destruction in iraq that means they are

ever destroying their reputation with lots of people like me so the bigger the gloves are off for both sides that's fair. well tell him our cyber espionage has just read the bulk of the information coming out of edward snowden and i think we will have a very comprehensive and complete picture of what the u.s. government has been doing in terms of espionage all cyber espionage not to accuse china of duty that's while whitewashing what the u.s. government has been doing is really in in fantasy and i don't think people in germany for example or in other parts of europe will believe what washington is talking about and i would say the u.s. way of manhandling great leading tech company like quali really reveals to the fullest extent that the u.s. cannot tolerate a company which is better than its own which is more out send the lead its own

wishes or lead up in the 5 g. and is not only trying to kill far away from his rallying all its allies tried to kill huawei well he forgets that i kidding howie the americans are not going to benefit because this will drag down the you as roll out of the 5 g. network as well as the applications to be built on top of the 5 g. network it will be a net loss to the united states and eventually it may force china you really become completely self reliance in terms of said we cannot so it may actually. 1 reading the ethanol for the u s semiconductor industry so i don't see people at home pale or abandoned for example on the morrow they know what they are talking about they want to do one thing they don't care about the consequences for the consequences will catch up with them this is how china u.s. relations are played out right now and anything washington will do with its gov's

are without is clubs are now with the. will be consequences as if i don't just exist if you want to get wrestle down china into the ground maybe i used to be before we go to the break go ahead yeah yeah if i could just jump in on this and actually 2017 i wrote a book on cyber espionage called virtual terror so i do know a thing or 2 about this is that peter you're absolutely right all states in gauge in this type of behavior i think the objection here is the scale and the scope and the absence of consequences as a result of the actions that are often taken on the chinese side obviously the u.s. is very active in this space as well if you want to jump in here we have to go to a hard break and after that heart rate we'll continue our discussion on u.s. chinese relations state r.t. .

donny and by north it's funny people because they copy him he's so bored that even such a bad puppy is sending. i'm not here to anybody until god didn't kill the find the next guy. who looked up live on. being done the and felt something that had she been done plenty of. that deflect from what is seo things to the deflection of what is happening to say that. that is a god that when i got up from idiots are. going

to write about that and the. fact that you can thank god you got to get nothing that gap. you know a lot of the. political cannot. handle an a plus and then they have their day what did gandhi the new normal gandhi gandhi face david begnaud do you get to mock you then david join you. the world is driven by shaped by. the day or thinks. we dare to ask.

welcome back to cross talk were all things are considered i'm here a little to remind you we're discussing whether china is now be enemy. ok let's go back to daniel talking about cyber space before we went to the break. so i just wanted to pick up on one point that victor had made regarding the injunction the u.s. government has to wall way this because of the linkages between wall wage and chinese government if we're always was strictly a commercial entity i don't think there would be much to object about and i also believe that having taken the actions that it's taken on wall way it's going to

encourage american companies to actually do more in the space in buy and 60 and i do think that ultimately that will be the net result. ok well it's very interesting i think as i think victor is already kind of alluded to it is that the way we're going we're going to have to internet we're going to have you know one country is going to choose to be on one platform and there is an intrusion on another and it doesn't look very good for the u.s. because in in europe i mean for example the germans are really pushing really hard back that they want to make their own decision on this. way and we have the u.k. already come up i want to switch gears a little bit here i want to go back to something the pump you know said i'm going to write this to you victor china ripped off our price intellectual property and trade secrets costing millions of jobs across america i find i'm really getting tired of this argument here it was the captains of american industry that decided where they were going to maybe do their manufacturing and they get a lot of it went to china went to mexico went to other countries it would be

a lot of different countries here but to blame china for stealing jobs i find that really galling and it's not in words with. with verifiable facts i would also say mr watt is that american productivity actually increased amazingly and it was allowed to cut jobs i mean we have a productivity issue and then moving assets into foreign markets here i don't see how that is china's all china. and shareholders of american companies immensely benefited from it go ahead. absolutely as of now china is already the largest patent producer in the world larger than the united states and china has a greater vested interest in protecting our rights or china itself or its companies as well as for companies throughout the world and the chinese economic transformation over the past 40 yes is really achieved by the great contribution

and hard work and hard labor of the chinese people into the me we really. take arrester for weekends we rarely take holidays off for example we keep working and this is the reason fundamental reason for the high economic productivity interest and i think if you compare the disciplining or the work. ethics of the chinese people worse is many other countries you will see why china's economic development has been so rapid over the last 40 years and hope really it will continue to accuse china of archaeology rights set is really the wrong tree as a matter of fact there are more litigations between and among american companies i guess american companies or american companies as korean company has french companies et cetera in terms of intellectual rights in sri shouldn't internet your

rights problems i'm not unique to china and the chinese government has never had any state policy to encourage sassed of p.r. right for example saw i think this is purely fabrication for the u.s. government try to focus on china's problems as if for example china abate the great economic transformation over the past 40 years because of the theft of our young nothing can be further from the truth as this. you know danny one of the things i mean you know you and i but i didn't you know it iraq americans here in and you know. i think it's fair to say we remember the cold war pretty well ok we betray our age. but it began that conflict was ideological and largely military of course there were the periphery. flare ups there were

confrontation but the 2 countries never in that was a rule we never go after each other here but china is a very different country than the soviet union because the soviet union was never an economic powerhouse it's retinue west i mean militarily it had some pretty good stuff but economically had our target didn't have much trade i mean china is a very different. animal i can say than the soviet union was the united states is simply isn't used a having appear and i think that's one of the thing that's kind of been it 9 at the the inner core of the elites because you know this is a different country it's very powerful it's very rich and it is on a trajectory communism ended because it was in the soviet union big for a variety of reasons ok and you know just pointing at you know the communist party of china that to me doesn't say anything ok it said something to me about the soviet union so the question is what's different here is the u.s. is not is not accustomed to having a real great power rival go ahead. i think there's some truth in that let me

address that in a 2nd is want to go back to something that victor said you said earlier i frankly don't understand why american companies are still operating in china and i do agree they have largely themselves to blame for making china the manufacturing epicenter of the world and along with other lots of other western companies they didn't have to do that but they chose to do it and then they stay there and even though there are draconian operating environments operating in china they still choose to stay there which they wouldn't do probably for any other country so i do. wonder why that is still texts now going to answer to your other questions i do agree with you and us accustomed to having a global peer if you will and i think you know frankly a lot of people here might be a little bit concerned that china has risen so quickly continue to rise so quickly that you know it's not far behind us and a lot of reynosa that said i think they would like to believe the americans would

like to believe that there's going to be some sort of a level playing field in terms of how we embrace and how we operate by the same set of global. and i don't know that china is necessarily so accustomed to operating on that basis china is much more accustomed custom to creating its own environment creating its own alternative reality in terms of the way it sees the world and operating as it would like to operate at home abroad that's going to be very difficult for him to to continue to do there's already a backlash from from the belgium road initiatives for having done so and a lot of people are saying i'm not sure i want this to continue for a final point on that in 28 team q had the pew center had a very excellent survey where they surveyed 26000 people from $25.00 countries and basically 63 percent say they would like the u.s. to continue to lead only 19 percent envisioned a world in which and it was the leader victor i mean we have what we heard the

words norms in rules and when it is in terms of the international order and i have to push back against daniel a little bit here i mean illegal invasion of iraq the illegal presence of american troops in syria the illegal overthrow the government of libya the illegal overthrowing the democratically elected government in ukraine how in the world can people in the west palm about norms and rules. noisy washing that probably is custom to buy lead to all kinds of laws or rules if it suits their purposes and it uses countries like china of wiley to international loans if america feels threatened now coming back to daniels points why multinational companies want to come to china refused to leave for example because china now is the biggest it has in the market in the world larger than that of the united states so if you are

a company if you run the company you cannot commit corporate suicide by disregarding the law just a consumer market in the world you need to producing china to get close to the markets to know the preferences of agendas consumers and you also need to leverage off on the highways for quality infrastructure and connectivity in china so that your production can be at lower cost and faster rate of solar out so that you can sell to opossum of the world including selling back to the united states this is the attraction of china i don't think in the immediate future any other country can replace china as the biggest attraction for corporates if they pursue corporate profitability as their own line i think a lot of people are if i could just say pleased i think a lot of kids of american companies are asking themselves if they can actually afford to stay in china and over the last 2 decades i've spoken with many companies

who have told me about the difficulty they've had operating there they originally went there of course for exactly the reason you say that they wanted to be able to tap into that 1.2 at the time maybe 1400000 people now christian is you know is a cost you're worth the potential benefit a lot of companies are having 2nd thoughts about well and then well you know i think that you know i want to make i want to make sure my viewers don't miss. understand here. i like the idea of bringing supply chains back to the united states this pandemic shows the necessity of doing that but i don't understand it i don't see that it is a lose lose i think it's a win win with it all countries safeguard supply chains when it comes to certain elements of their economy i think that's what that's called. self defense and protecting your sovereignty my gripe is that you know constantly criticizing china for stealing our jobs when the when the us itself allowed itself to be open to

thrown in billets and i think you know i would like to see an inkling and a congressional investigation into that why do you sell your country out ok because that's the other side of the coin here in western media doesn't like to touch here because well the media is controlled by very powerful people that are involved in this kind of activity here so i mean we have to be much more transparent in what's going on here not just blaming china major or how is the relationship how should it move forward or and how do you think it will move forward and then i will ask and it is i'm russian go ahead now i think it's on a u.s. relations goal for the doll between now and the web of the search and between the serbs. gender or the trying to it's 25 i love traits that america. resists the narco of the damned if wanes so there will be great chaos in the united

states i mean here we were presented as you elect there you know the same question go ahead right i don't know that the foundation that has been laid over the last 3 plus years is likely to change regardless of who's in the white house come january 20th i think the stakes are going to continue to be higher and i do agree with victor that we can expect things to get a little a little worse in the next several months that all said i do think there will ultimately become an equilibrium. between these 2 powers with the recognition that they have to find a way to get along the stakes are simply and i wouldn't be surprised actually if the chinese government actually prefers a 2nd trump presidency it because that will continue the disarray and the fragmentation on the part of the west a biden presidency would probably result in some sort of. regard us and its many allies those are very thoughtful dogs from both of you that's all the time we have i want to thank our viewers for watching us here r.t.

and i want to thank our guest in beijing and in stamford and see you next time you remember. the sudden fullest and illegal takeover of a government by

a small group. rather than revolutionaries also just conduct small group the corporations when you have a tiny people who have all the power you have to have some means to make sure that asked of us don't get together into the back. alleys or sacrifice some places that capitalism exploited and destroyed for profit. and left behind misery poverty environmental devastation and so you see things like voter suppression building more prisons you seem gerrymandering all sorts of undemocratic practices where wealth uses the world for well for this world. question that the.