and we talk to someone who continues to fight for julian assange one of the top human rights paris's in the world the streets of queens counsellor geoffrey robertson and time for business owners in the u.k. to relocate of e.u. and how will the u.k. leverage coronavirus for breakfast but exactly 5 months until boris johnson's version of bricks and dragons den star and businesswoman deborah meetin tells us why britain should have never said out of hand to the world's largest trading bloc paula some more coming up in this a lockdown edition yet again of going underground but joining me now from london via skype is geoffrey robertson q.c. one of the world's greatest human rights barristers co-founder of doubt he street one of his colleagues recently in the news with amber heard as she was brought in as a witness in support of rupert murdoch against johnny depp but jeffrey 1st of all let's get to julian asylums because while the world's media was talking about amber heard arguably the future of free speech free expression of free press was being decided

yet again in a london courtroom what do you make of the united states trying to have a new indictments against julian assange to wiki link isn't states is trying to crush julian assange in order to do damage. whistleblowers the future talking to journalists so that's the uk doing to some extent quite well they want him in prison for 175 years the chargers they breach or we can we can tell how many years he'll get because his . source so c. many got 35 or he was our by president obama so i think if he does get extradited we'll get 50 years and he won't buy trucks. but why would have jumped in say. a lovely healing spell why

would they suddenly at this late stage and we have meals melter here on rio and special rapporteur on things being tortured here in britain why this late stage would wait maybe trying to change the indictments against a sanch maybe even stopping the old ones are trying to cane it they're trying to add to it over a broad conspiracy charge going back to his days as a juvenile hacker in australia all the people literally persons unknown is the phrase they're using to me encourage to send him secret set weekly sort of course in those days weekly kes was rather good because it exposed the courage of scientology to be exposed corruption it did a lot of good things we're back in his early days which now the americans are

trying to turn into a past conspiracy this may be because they feel the case isn't strong enough to be evidence of persecution is pretty strong because it's been shown that he's and his his hideaway in the ecuadorian 'd embassy was bugged by the americans that they had intercepted content while her subject in a spanish case because of course he felt cia has not admitted to bugging conversations with you i understand jeffrey having been following that case so it was a case of it's a breach of european law it's the sort of being that caused the pentagon papers case to be derailed because they bugged and stole stuff from the sources office so it is the kind of evidence coming out that. they may not

like there was a suggestion that the white house wanted it to be postponed until after the elections because some evidence was going to come out about how overtures were made on behalf of the republican campaign to weaken he said there was evidence by his fiance who said that one of the guards on behalf of the ins tried to get her baby's nappy so they could analyze the pool in order to see whether a sound was a power but there's a lot of clue in the courts of britain that the moment and more importantly as far as the press were concerned was to let's get on johnny depp's bed. i'm afraid that was what the media was interested in but yeah exactly you success winning even though you've successfully overturned so many wrongful convictions here you presumably are not going to be called

a witness to the spanish court we're bound to the laws on is trying to complain or at least sort out whether the cia link company you see global were bugging you yourself in the ecuadorian embassy can you remember any of your cases where a cia link company was abusing client all the lawyer privileges none that i know of that i wouldn't necessarily know but there is julian a sour 100 journalists letters and publisher who is locked up in coakley dangerous in belmarsh and he can only talk to his lawyers now after 10 minutes telephone calls for 10 minutes and it's difficult to prepare a case he could have been let out on bail under a kind of house arrest or mansion arrest in the country where alec chronic shackles would prevent him from leaving but at least. be able to prepare his case

with concentration that did not appeal so he's looking at the barrel of a gun which will provide him with life imprisonment to die in an american supermax it might come when the americans have their way and i think it is as american as american journalists are now realizing it is correct to freedom of speech because the argument from white house is putting forward is that he doesn't deserve the 1st amendment because he's not an american in australia and that it doesn't apply to any journalist working for american papers you you were retained by julian assange and you've defended him so is jennifer robinson amber heard lawyer that's why she says she was in the news so is amal clooney and the guardian newspaper which partnered up with wiki leaks

printed an article in the past few days as this hearing was being discussed in london and then earlier printed an article saying he's basically a russian asset. he has a russian asset and defacto as a man you yourself were defending a russian as a not a journalist at all i didn't see that article that stands i suppose from the american news about wiki leaks publishing stuff that they may have obtained from russian sources from russian hackers but you've got to remember wiki leaks had the idea or publishing anything of public interest and that what they published about the democratic national committee to show that there was a lot of jiggery poker a carrying on to stop bernie sanders getting. the nomination and 5 members of that

committee had to resign but people are realizing that perhaps if the cia had secretly slipped him some information about mr putin and his wealth or his involvement in assassination in britain then he would have had the integrity to publish clashes well but when we hear and we don't know of course he published collateral murder which was evidence of certainly in wright's crime the killing of journalists it was really a case of burial manslaughter i suppose so so that nothing ever been tried in that way in the d.n.c. meanwhile joe biden the presidential contender said and then when he nixon as almost an enemy combatant seemed to reflect pompei own no reflection of the resignation of you mentioned high tech terrorists who were in finance or going to

the russia report because even though no evidence was found by the russian or border by the intelligence and security committee here the recommendations were that we may need american style espionage act which is under which sound has been crossed canada penitentiaries unary freeze the treason government out of the prevent fraud is the object now but of course we haven't had much luck with treason prosecutions we allowed him philby it to escape we allowed blunt to continue selecting the queens lose so there's been a reluctance to use the earth in 81 treason act ad i think it would be a great mistake to update it it should be abolished because it's one of these vague laws about and compassing leo go through. the monarch and i think to use

it against people who have. assisted particular russians would be wrong a much better idea frankly is to have a register foreign interests so that those who act for foreign governments must come clean about it and tend to see what will that mean for me say because i think the state mandated by the russian duma the b.b.c. obviously likewise mandated by the british parliament to broadcast overseas does that mean the registering of found foreign journalists in one of them even bankers actually bankers who work say for h.s.b.c. or a company in the city of london well i think this is reasonable but of course the problem with reduced ration of as a foreign interest is shown in russia or in singapore where they've forced amnesty international and other human rights groups to register and then create all kinds

of bureaucratic problems so you've got a box the law and there is a good law that's been suggested incredibly you can donate more than 10000 pounds to a british political party without any money laundering scrutiny so this is quite serious people are upset because russian oligarchs and their wives donate hundreds of thousands in return for a tennis match with power strong soon and it's clear that money that comes to any political party from abroad should be able to over 10000 pounds should be subject to money laundering rules and at the moment it's not so i think that's one valuable law that will come from the russia report which didn't find any russian. interference in brake usage but said that was because m i

5 wasn't looking well obviously the toys say all that russian oligarch money the entirely innocent donation to the tory party i've just got a quickly just ask here we have seen case because we had someone on he said that. jeffrey epstein was working for the israelis the israeli government denied it and now galle maxwell finds herself on remand in a brooklyn prison how safe is shane heaven that her friend that scene died in a new york prison well is interesting because it may seem quixotic givens there's so much injustice in the world to care about injustice delayed max but you know you judge a system of law by how it treats its most unprepossessing people and the complement with american law or in these high profile cases is that there's

no contempt of court or as we have in britain so there's massive judgment it's as if she's pretty you guilty and the judge herself and said is wrong ever so good and allowed and i find this astonishing allowed 3 prosecution witness list to oppose bail and just say she's almost she's a sociopath and this of course is all reported and this is because america has no contempt of court lose designed to protect a fair trial and as a result there is a massive and now it appears again and of course we have seen in a number of high profile american trials that privilege has taken to sting the jury can produce a wrong word it or she denies all the charges all wrongdoing every rotten casey thank you very much after. break does u.k.

prime minister boris johnson stand a chance when he enters negotiations into the dragon's den of the world's largest trading globe you we asked t.v. star and business mogul deborah mead it's time for u.k. business to be the country. to i'm going underground. l. look forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people. must obey the orders given it like human beings except when such orders to conflict with the 1st law. should be very careful about artificial intelligence and the point is to make. them shia. areas with artificial intelligence will something to.

protect its own existence. back skies or financial survival they say money to develop. closer to these it is a central plank support diatomic other problem right now so stop the. welcome back to the slow down addition of going underground joining me now from somerset in england is dragon's den business mogul deborah and the reason deborah you on the show is really to explain there was what is in store for small businesses now we're hearing from britain's e.u. negotiator david frost that basically the e.u. has to accept the deal on the table what will it mean. for resume businesses in

this country well it's not enough that we've been living in sort of limbo land where they understand what the dance steps and the like and of course was also as if you know and done it which is a pretty rocky anyway. but i think it is very worrying indeed that businesses that probably don't have a huge safety net you know in the u.s. and the world you know there's a lot of just in time stuff. probably going to like cash employed in their businesses and not sitting with this great lump of money at the 1st hour that they're looking for and thinking i don't know what i've got to do i've got a government telling me prepare but i don't know how to parent for the fraser's actually to prepare for all possible outcomes do so food in the corridors of whitehall they respect to or with the people so what who think they do that anyway on a regular basis therefore they don't have a problem with the uncertainty of. the earlier the issue for me with all possible ask how much is that takes money you know actually it's madness you know it's crazy

you look at a business you think about what's the most likely outcome and you prepare for it's the most likely outcome you look around you take account of all of the factors if you think my justin says this is probably the things that happen there is such scant information there is such a muddled horizon that i don't know from this is me who spends my lunch trotting through issues assent that doesn't matter but doesn't it doesn't matter if i don't know how we were kant's what is the most likely scenario as sussan we don't have a lot of trust sitting around you know what chappell owed money then that it's yes interesting the government themselves and the reason that they didn't have enough and slices is that it would have been a wrong decision to put a load of cash into a load event than today's is just in case they're asking businesses to put

a lot of cash into them into what will probably be socially relevant projects that is just not joined up. oil more disturbing arguably if you believe the sources that are talking to the financial times was this report that the people in white always saying they could use code to mask the economic negative consequences of a no deal at the end of the year presumably the government would say that definitely is not the case do you think that could be the case and there are people thinking like her well if it is the case it's a pretty ugly mindset you know. that really isn't what we should be spending our time walking around the halls of whitehall talking we should be talk about how we get ourselves asked it's don't be very difficult to distinguish what's happened and the edge of what has happened because rex it and it might be helpful to the government that would probably have struggled with a with a very difficult scenario. and i did think it will let people off the hook you know

and i don't like letting the i think people make decisions but there i i agree with them i don't agree with my help they get them right it get them right well done if they don't get it right then they they should be held responsible for it and i think they could be an element of why we're. well they're saying they're trying their best i don't know how many requests you are getting for venture capital how many business plans are being sent at the moment but i mean how do you think people are saying when the bank of england bails out ryanair easyjet 600000000 b.a. 600000000 john lewis 300000000 who are concerned the 260000000 gregg's 1c5xw6cw i know has very money for a semi is life support but what do you think they're thinking when the biggest companies in the country seem to have got so much money from the bank of england in tow the loan facilities well i'm. just

a facet of the sun so it's less unease but the truth of matter is that there is. that big companies that pay to have jobs and they're begging at an betting that tax revenues they're betting our economic stability even if we're not adding anything at price so i don't have an issue with looking at a business that would fundamentally survive beyond this as opposed to it for i say that whether it's a big business or whether it's a small business we should not support industries that are fundamentally a problem because you know that's just the money how to manage and we should be spending that money looking at new industries in the new shape so so you know i don't say worry about the fact that we're saving jobs for people and we're trying to stabilize an on the i don't think i think that's a good way to spend our money and i think in the early days i was pretty comments about whether sportiness unease because they had to move quickly they made promises

quite quickly and they actually delivered the casket as we've gone they felt clunky they haven't looked at individual industries in a i think a particularly in-depth way in what they should be doing is working the trade associations and dealing not just the industries as a whole you can't talk about the hospitality industry money in the halls or all is a part you know look at each step of that industry and understand what it needs to support and i've been a bit disappointed about the targeted support now that they've had the time to understand you know the different effects on the different parts of the different industries goldman sachs needed money from the u.s. taxpayer back in 2008 which is an act emanates from goldman sachs i've kind of ethos is the is the 1st the 1st straw to be clutched at by some of that kind of inheritance going to be this soviet style bailout i mean

when you think about it for a time i don't know whether for case right now the government oversees the figures most people are being in effect most people are. in fact employed by the government here to here at all is not a company saying you know they need to be bailed out we've turned into the u.s.s.r. is a good point and it's a really good question because we didn't with the support issue how do we get people through this what we're not really to make that's how we shape the thing that they've got to get through so so you know new industries encouraging people to behave and i encourage people rewarding people i'm actually full going into the emergent you know this is a billet industry is the i.t. industries that and it's pretty well software companies so so so along with you know there's pieces that they need to get everybody through this and then that is a thesis says we need to die then into a lot sustainable industry not just but we need to hold on we need to make sure that we get fruits of the time that we can make a bit of money because with fundamentally change and you know we still feels

a bit like we're just trying to get back so the norm when we should be looking for the future this is a really good moment to do that and the government needs to get more intelligence about doing that because in our own building a different. one but isn't that i'm a disturbing for a dragon in the sense that people really are questioning whether this of moore's law of the economy is right at all we have some or all of your own recently you saying there's a reason why big business has work so well without internal markets within the big businesses and they thought just economies of scale they are more efficient that's why walmart is more efficient that's why there's a big tech business when defending themselves in coal rest being accused of market movie lation that's why their businesses are efficient they run like the soviet union well absolutely and i think that's a problem and i think that is the area of a very clunky and old fashioned way of doing business and i think the businesses

that will survive are the ones you're actually simply agile fleece of the. they can check it out of the well already 5 years ago i was dense or somehow the world is changing the same guys the most simple thing you can teach anybody is agility you know just good just my own agility and you win the world and actually this big business is that company that can change so awful it can do is have a disproportionate voice in government that's worrying because well it was trying so things done cheap things as they were the consumer is changing that this year has actually changed the might they be all still you know they must all virtual and much happier better we were shopping a microscope in what more are not communicated by on line we've built in our lives in a different way we're worried about state and personal worries about the ethics of the business businesses that doesn't fundamentally change their view the way they look and the way they look at the gun to the left is good news in the s.

and p's a burial place to take advantage. of them is on google and these companies will say we are just as agile as the smallest business in fact we can take over and buy out a small business in fact who are regulars then a little about venture capital taking over innovation from the small guy so that doesn't mean the end of big business it doesn't start a big business is consolidating and take a buying it all up again we get back to this soviet style of state capitalism well i i simply agree with you and actually the business is that you thought about it all right giles and they are all good looking and they are having a major influence on the way we do business and it's our i don't want rate i don't equate dragons that is dragons we are we are and that lists but we are looking for the ox you know where at the assembly and with the eggs in the looking the new ideas america besting and those people to carry as you want to is and help them hey

i mean i always say every big business. needs to remember it was a small business is actually is a small business is just big and they somehow to get us and my eyes i look at the businesses that got potential growth into larger businesses it kind it doesn't matter who owns those businesses as long as the market forces them to behave as individual businesses because they're a big umbrella organization a lot of the homes and lots of different businesses but within and each of those platforms have had to. stop the entrepreneur entering the market building something you know coming up with a great idea has it doesn't does it matter that it goes on to be owned by somebody else all it goes on to be the business that owns other businesses that's how it works but it's the essence of it and got to change it's got to stay on top of

marial least suppose at heart and that's what the big monkey business is with crutches and too much lead to say a comp is ok we're just virally we go away talking about me really agile whoever you are because of the who breaks it up. is still your view that the british people didn't really vova breakfast at all and there was russia that interfered with the break out now so that's never been my view because we did the press it you know so the question is how much were they influenced well i think russia obviously played a part. i but i think there are a lot of influences you know there are a lot of people banding around a lot of meaningless words a point we were making decisions and. listen i didn't understand many nations of rights and i live in the you know in the biz you know i did. it some

pills for me how everything. is is integrated with the e.u. i spend my life worrying about what we're going to do so i am sorry but i defy anybody who was at that point. to make such a menses decision to fully understand me including what that decision meant. well pressure of course denies any interference with their movement thank you very much a lot of you all again as we hopefully get some clarity about what business is both of you about planning thanks so much and that's it for this long television on going underground on the monday we'll talk about going into outer space stay safe.

and dark industry comes to life in los angeles every night. dozens of women sells their bodies on the street many of them underage. los angeles police reveal a taste of their daily challenge you know if you're going to exploit for a child here in los angeles there we're going to come as you see officers going undercover as sex workers and customers to fight the early 6 trades. i think we need to kind of just get back to realizing that modern medicine has achieved some great things but actually when it comes to what has increased our life expectancy more than anything else in the last 4 or 5 you know the last the plundered 50 years must be public health you know modern medicine can be attributes to be maybe 3 and a half to 5 years. life expectancy over an increase of 40 years in the last century in arts and that's again something that people probably find quite surprising or

shocking. trump says he pulled down the chinese video sharing app to talk from operating in the us plus a fellow republicans worry paging could use it to meddle in america's upcoming presidential elections. the world health organization warns coronavirus is not seasonal but rather one big wave after the easing of lockdowns across the world and a rise in the number of covert victims. people sought you know locked on to over that it was somehow go away and unfortunately that's not the case what you've got transmission anywhere is potentially everywhere. and linda lays the easing of covert restrictions apply to growth in new cases so the study finds most people are puzzled by the lockdown.