of responsible state behavior in cyberspace there was also a welcome from the u.k. foreign office for the sanctions with london stating they've been at the forefront of the battle against cyber warfare globally and they themselves have identified some of these individuals and entities responsible for these alleged cyber attacks it's not entirely clear at this stage what exact evidence the e.u. has provided to link these individuals and entities through these cyber attacks nor of course if there are any assets or a cow to actually freeze it is clear though that this is a strong show of force from the european union at the expense of the usual familiar suspects russia china and north korea seemingly at the expense of any improvement in relations with moscow. that is how the news stories are shaping up on this the 1st day of august we'll keep the updates coming at the top of the hour in the meantime more great programs get going in moments a tight season. after

a time cheney or watching another lockdown edition of going underground when we try to bring you the stories that made a nation mainstream media just don't appear to want to bring to you coming up on the show why does the press think testifying to support group of murder against johnny depp is more important than the founder of wiki leaks julian assange being tortured in britain according to the u.n. as he faces new indictments for availing us war crimes we talk to someone who continues to fight for julian that's one of the top human rights paris's of the

world the streets queen's councillor geoffrey robertson and time for business owners in the u.k. to relocate to the e.u. and how will the u.k. leverage coronavirus for brics it but exactly 5 months until boris johnson's version of bricks and dragons den star and businesswoman deborah meade and tells us why britain should have never said. it to the world's largest trading block all the support coming up in this lockdown edition yet again of going underground but joining me now from london via skype is geoffrey robertson q.c. one of the world's greatest human rights barristers co-founder dowdy street one of his colleagues recently in the news with amber heard is. she was brought in as a witness in support of rupert murdoch against johnny depp but jeffrey 1st of all let's get to julie in asylums because while i'm world's media was talking about amber heard him plea the future of free speech free expression and a free press is being decided yet again in

a london courtroom what do you make of the united states trying to have new indictments against julian assange who are healing states is trying to crush julian assange aren't given order to do damage deter whistleblowers of the future talking to journalists so that's the uk they're doing to some extent quite well they want him in prison for 175 years the chargers they breach or we can we can tell how many years he'll get because his. source josee manning got 35 years before he was our by president obama so i think julian those are if he does get extradited will get 50 years and he won't be pardoned by president trucks that's crucial but why would they have jumped in say lovely killings but why would they suddenly at this late stage and we have

meals meltzer here you and rio and special rapporteur on saying he's being tortured here in britain why this late stage would be trying to change the indictment against sancerre maybe even stopping the old ones are trying to came it they're trying to add to it. all conspiracy charge going back to it is gays as a juvenile hacker in australia all the people that he persons are known as the phrase they're using whom he encouraged to send him secrets we keep leaks and of course in most days we can. eeks was rather good because it exposed the trick of scientology exposed corruption it did a lot of good things where back in his early days which now the americans are

trying to turn into a vast conspiracy this may be because they feel the case isn't strong enough be evidence of persecution is pretty strong because it's been shown that he's and his his hideaway in the ecuadorian 'd embassy was bugged by the americans that they had intercepted conference will hunt for subject in a spanish case because of course he felt cia has not admitted to mugging conversations with you i understand jeffrey having been following that case so it was a case of it's a breach of european law it's the sort of thing that caused the pentagon papers case to be derailed because they bugged and stole stuff from the sources office so it is the kind of evidence that's coming out that they may not like there was a suggestion that they from white house wanted it to be postponed until after the

elections because some evidence was going to come out about how overtures were made on behalf of the republican campaign to weaken the there was evidence by his fiance who said that one of the guards on behalf of the ins or tried to get her baby's nafeek so they could analyze the pool in order to see whether assad has the power but there's a lot of crew in the courts of britain that the moment and more importantly as far as the press were concerned it was he left it. on johnny depp's bed. i'm afraid that was what the media was interested in but you have said to you successfully you you've successfully overturned so many wrongful convictions here you presumably are not going to be called a witness to the spanish court will bow to the laws on is trying to complain

or at least sort out where the cia link company you see global were bugging you yourself in the ecuadorian embassy can you remember any of your cases where a cia link company was abusing client or lawyer privilege none that i know of but i wouldn't necessarily know but there is julian a sartre journalist letters and publisher who is locked up in coakley dangerous in belmarsh and he can only talk to his lawyers now after 10 minutes telephone calls for 10 minutes and it's difficult to prepare a case he could have been let out on bail under a kind of house arrest or mansion arrest in the country where alec chronic shackles would prevent him from leaving but at least he'd be able to prepare his case with concentration that did not appeal so he is

looking at the barrel of a gun which will provide him with life imprisonment to die in an american supermax it might come by air when the americans have their way and i think it is as american as american journalists are now realizing it is correct to freedom of speech because the argument from white house is putting forward is that he doesn't deserve the 1st amendment because he's not an american in australia and that it doesn't. applied to any journalist working for american papers you you were retained by julian assange and you've defended him so is jennifer robinson amber heard lawyer that's why she says she was in the news so is a mark looney the guardian newspaper which partnered up with wiki leaks printed an

article in the past few days as this hearing was being discussed in london and then the earlier printed an article saying he's basically a russian asset him when he says the russian s.s. and the factories i mean you yourself were defending a russian as a non a journalist at all i didn't see that article that stebbins i suppose from the 'd american news about wiki leaks publishing stuff that they may have obtained from russian sources from russian hackers but you've got to remember wiki leaks had the idea or publishing anything of public interest and that what they published about the democratic national committee to show that there was a lot of jiggery poker a carrying on to stop bernie sanders getting the nomination and 5 members of that

committee had to resign but people are realising that perhaps if the cia had secretly slipped him some information about mr putin and his wealth or his involvement in assassination in britain then he would have had the integrity to publish classes well when we hear and we don't know because he published collateral murder which was evidence of certainly him rights crime the killing of journalists it was really a case of burial manslaughter i suppose so. so that nothing ever been tried in that way the d.n.c. meanwhile joe biden the presidential contender said and then we. as almost an enemy combatant seem to reflect pompei oh no reflection of the resignation of you mentioned high tech terrorists who have to let us get in the russia report because

even though no evidence was found by the russia or border by the intelligence and security committee here the recommendations were that we may need american style espionage act which is under which is being articulate and a treason freeze that tree is them government part of the treason and prot is the object not our but because we haven't had much luck with prison prosecutions we allowed him philby to escape we allowed blunt to continue selecting the queen's pictures so there's been a reluctance to use the $1381.00 treason act and i think it would be a great mistake to update it it should be abolished because it's one of these they laws about and compassing the overthrow of the monarch and i think to use

it against people who have. assisted particular russians would be wrong much frankly is to have a reduced foreign interests so that those who act for foreign governments must come clean about it to tell the seat to war what would that mean for me to say because our t. his statement days and by the russian duma the b.b.c. obviously likewise mandated by the british parliament to broadcast overseas does that mean the registering of foreign journalists and one of them even bankers actually bankers who work say for a just b. c. or a company in the city of london well i think this. it is reasonable but of course the problem with reduced ration of as a foreign interest is shown in russia or in singapore where they've forced amnesty international and other human rights groups to register and then create all kinds

of bureaucratic problems so you've got to grok the law and there is a good law that's been suggested incredibly you can donate 10000 pounds to a british political party without any money laundering scrutiny so this is quite serious people are upset because russian oligarchs wives don't make hundreds of thousands in return for a tennis match with power a strong person and it's clear that money that comes to any political party from abroad should be able to over $10000.00 pounds should be subject to money laundering routes and at the moment it's not so i think that's $1.00 valuable law that will come from the russia report which didn't find any russian interference in brake usage but said that was we cause m i 5 wasn't

looking well obviously the toys say all that russian oligarch money entirely innocent donations to the tory party i just want to quickly just ask you about the epstein case because we had someone on he said that. jeffrey epstein was working for the israelis the israeli government denied it and now the lane maxwell finds herself on remand in a brooklyn prison how safe is shane here in that her friend that staying died in a new york prison well it is interesting because it may seem quixotic given's there's so much injustice in the world to care about in justice delayed max 12 but you know you. judge a system of law by how it treats its most unprepossessing people and the compliment with american lauren these high profile cases is that there is no contempt of court nor as we have in britain so there's massive judgement it's as

if she's crazy are you guilty and the judge shows so and so is wrong ever suggested strapped and allowed and i find those astonishing allowed 3 or secretion witnessed at least to oppose bail and just say she's almost she's a sociopath and this of course is all reported and this is because america has no who contempt of court loose designed to protect a fair trial and as a result there is a massive amount of if you can see again and of course we've seen in a number of high profile merican trials that privileges take you to sing with your it can produce a wrong well she denies all the charges all wrongdoing every romantic you say thank you very much after the break does u.k. prime minister boris johnson stand

a chance when he is negotiators enter the dragon's den of the world's largest trading bloc for you we ask t.v. star and business mogul never meeting when it's time for u.k. business to leave the country paulism or coming i'm about to do i'm going underground. join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and obviously to get out of the world of politics sports business i'm show business i'll see you then. welcome back to this love ballad mission of going underground joining me now from somerset in england is dragon's den business mogul debra median and the reason there were you on the show is really to explain to us what is in store for small

businesses now we're hearing from britain's e.u. negotiated david frost that basically the e.u. has to accept the deal on the table what will it mean for me businesses in this country well it's not enough that we've been living in sort of limbo land not really understanding what that and steps and to the right and of course was also as if you know i don't it which is a pretty rough anyway. but i think it is very worrying indeed that businesses that probably don't have a huge say you know in the u.s. and the world the know there's a lot of just in time stuff. probably going to like cash employed in their businesses and not sitting with this great lump of money at the 1st hour that they're looking for and thinking i don't know what i've got to do i've got a government telling me prepare but i don't want to carry on the phrases actually to prepare for all possible outcomes do so through in the corridors of white all they respect to or with those people so why should they think that they do that

anyway on a regular basis therefore they don't have a problem with the uncertainty of valium the issue for me with all possible latham's is that takes money you know and actually is madness you know it's crazy you look at business you think about what's the most likely outcome and you prepare for it but the most likely outcome you look around you take a chance of all of the absentee things my just says this is obvious that. there is such scant information there is such a muddled horizon that i don't know from this is me who spends my lunch trotting through issues a scent that doesn't matter but doesn't it doesn't matter if i didn't. how we were cants what is the most likely scenario as sussan we don't have a lot of trust sitting around you know what's happened over money then that it's yes interesting the government themselves and the reason that they didn't have a nice says is that it would have been a wrong decision to put a load of cash into

a load event ventilators just in case there are some businesses to put a lot of cash into into what will probably be socially relevant projects that is just not joined up. oil more disturbing arguably if you believe the sources that are talking to the financial times with this report that the people in white always saying they could use code to mosque the economic negative consequences of a no deal at the end of the year presumably the government would say that definitely is not the case do you think that could be the case and there are people thinking. well if it is the case is a pretty ugly mindset you know. and that really is what we should be spending our time walking around the halls of whitehall talking we should be talk about how we get ourselves as it is don't be very difficult to distinguish what's happened there

to what has happened because bret's it and it might be helpful to the government that would probably have struggled with a with a very difficult scenario. and i do think it will let people off the hook that's what i you know and i don't like letting the i think people make decisions on their own i agree with them i don't agree with them i hope they get them right to get it right well done if they don't get it right then they they should be held responsible for it and i think them they could be an element of why wouldn't they have a. well they're saying they're trying their best to learn how many requests you are getting for venture capital how many business plans are being sent at the moment but i mean how do you think people say when the bank of england bails out ryanair easyjet $600000000.00 b.a. $600000000.30 confirms a $260000000.00 gregg's $150600000000.00 i know how free money for

a semi is life support but what do you think we're thinking when the biggest companies in the country seem to have got so much money from the bank of england in tows alone facilities well i am just a facet of this until his lesson is but the truth of the matter is that they're very happy companies that they have jobs and they're betting at an bank that tax revenues are economic stability even if we're not adding a not price so i don't have an issue with looking at a business what fundamentally survive beyond this as opposed to it for i say that whether it's a big business or whether it's a small business we should not support industries that are fundamentally a problem because you know that's just the money after bad and we should be spending that money looking at new industries in the new shape so so you know i don't perceive a worry about the fact that we're saving jobs for people and we're trying to stabilize an army i don't i think that's

a good way to spend the money and i think in the early days i was pretty commenting about whether sportiness unease because they had moved quickly they made promises quite quickly and they actually delivered the casket as we've gone they felt clunky they haven't looked at individual industries in a i think a particularly in-depth way what they should be doing is worth in the trade associations in dealing not just with industries as a whole you can't talk about hospitality industry money in the halls or all is a part you know. but look at each section that industry and understand what it needs to support and i think a bit disappointed about the target is now that they've had the time to understand you know the different effects on the different parts of the different industries goldman sachs needed money from the u.s. taxpayer back in 2008 which is so not emanates from goldman sachs that kind of ethos is the is the 1st 1st straw to be clutched at by

someone from that kind of inheritance going to be this soviet style bailout i mean when you think about it for a time i don't know whether if the case right now the government overseas the figures most people are being in effect most people are in effect employed by the government here too he went all as a matter of companies saying you know they need to be bailed out we've turned into the u.s.s.r. . it's a good point and it's a really good question because we didn't with the support issue how do we get people through this what we're not really didn't make is how we shaped the thing that they got to get through so so you know new industries encouraging people to behave and i encourage people rewarding people i'm actually told going into the emergent you know this is a billet industry is the i.t. industries that are going to do pretty well the software companies so so so along with you know there's pieces that they need to get everybody through this and then that is a piece it says we need to die then into a long and sustainable industry not just but we need to hold on we need to make

sure that we get through to the time that we can make a bit of money because with fundamentally change and you know we still feels a bit like we're just trying to get back so the norm when we should be looking so the future this is a really good moment to do that and the government needs to get more intelligence about doing that because in our own building a different. thing but isn't that a bit disturbing for a dragon in the sense of people really are questioning whether this of moore's law of the economy is right at all we have some or all of your own recently you saying there's a reason why big businesses work so well without internal markets within the big businesses and i thought just economies of scale they are more efficient that's why wal-mart is more efficient that's why there's a big tech business when defending themselves in coal rest being accused of market

move elation that's why their businesses are efficient they run like the soviet union well absolutely and i think that's a problem and i think that is the area of a very clunky and old fashioned way of doing business and i think the businesses that will survive are the ones you're actually simply agile felisa thought they can check it out of the world already 5 years ago i was gentle some have asked the world is changing the same guys the most simple. and you can see it's anybody's agility you know just good just an agility and you win the world and actually these big businesses that can't be they can change so fast all it can do is have a disproportionate voice in government that's worrying because what it was trying so things done and keep things as they were the consumer is changing that is you know has actually changed of a mighty big balls to you know their muscle virtual and much happier better we were shopping a microscope in what more are not communicated by on line we've built in our lives in a different way we're worried about sustainability the worries of the business businesses

that doesn't fundamentally change that view the way they look and the way they look at the gun to the left behind is good news in the s. and p's a very well placed to take advantage. of them is on google and these companies will say we are just as agile as the smallest business here fact we can take over and buy out a small business in fact who are regulars then a little about venture capital taking over innovation from the small guy so that doesn't really end a big business it doesn't start a big business is consolidating and taking my you know all up again we get back to this soviet style of state capitalism that's why i simply agree with you and actually the business is it you talked about it all right giles and they are all good looking and they are having a major influence on the way we do business and it's our i don't want rate i don't quite dragons' that because dragons we are we are and that lists but we are looking

for the arcs in aware of the assembly and with the x in the looking the new ideas america besting and those people to carry x. and you want to is unhealthily i mean i always say every big business needs to remember it was a small business it's actually is a small business is just big and they somehow the. yes and when i say either of the businesses that got potential for growth into larger businesses it kind of doesn't matter who owns those businesses as long as the market forces them to behave as individual businesses because they're a big umbrella organization oh lots of different platforms and lots of different businesses but within and each of those platforms have had to. stop the entrepreneur entering the market building something you know coming up with a great idea has it doesn't does it matter that it goes on to be owned by somebody

else all it goes on to be the business that owns other businesses that's how it works but it's the essence of it and got to change it's got to stay on 2 primary all fleets of 1st hearts and that's the big monkey business is with crutches and too much legacy a com is ok we're just virally when we go away talking about maybe we agile whoever you are because of the breaks it. is still your view that the british people didn't really vova director at all and there was russia that interfered with the break out now so that's never been my view because we did the press it you know so the question is how much were they influenced well i think russia obviously played a part. i but i think there are a lot of influences you know there are a lot of people banding around a lot of meaningless words

a point we were making decisions and. listen i only didn't understand many cases of threats and i live in the you know in the biz you know i did. it some peels for me how everything. is is integrated with the e.u. i spend my life worrying about what we're going to do with the rights so i do i'm sorry but i defy anybody who was going to. make such a mental decision to fully understand me including what decision. well pressure of course denies any interference with their removal thank you very much a lot early on again as we hopefully get some clarity about what business is both of you about planning thanks so much and that's it for this long television on going underground on the monday we'll talk about going into outer space stay safe.

donald trump's a spiritual needs video sharing your optic talk is to be in the us it comes as fellow republicans allege that beijing could use a to meddle in america's upcoming presidential election also ahead on the program the world health organization sees coronaviruses a seasonal disease but rather is occurring as one big wave warns the pandemic is continuing and accelerating people thought you know a lot done so that it was somehow to go away and unfortunately that's not the case why you buy transmission anyway it is potentially everywhere. whiling into delaying be using of covert restrictions growth in new cases.