but after a time cheney or watching a lockdown edition of going underground when we tried to bring you the stories that made a nation mainstream media just don't appear to want to bring 2 year coming up on the show why does the press think testifying to support rupert murdoch against johnny depp is more important than the founder of wiki leaks julian assange being tortured in britain according to the u.n. as he faces new indictments for appealing u.s. war crimes we talk to someone who continues to fight for julian that's one of the top human rights paris's in the world the streets queens counsellor geoffrey

robertson and time for business owners in the u.k. to relocate to the e.u. and how will the u.k. leverage coronavirus for breakfast but exactly 5 months until boris johnson's version of bricks and dragons den star and businesswoman deborah meade and tells us why britain should have never said. it to the world's largest trading bloc the civil war coming up in this a look down edition yet again of going underground but joining me now from london via skype is geoffrey robertson q.c. one of the world's greatest human rights barristers co-founder dowdy street one of his colleagues recently in the news with amber heard is she was brought in as a witness in support of rupert murdoch against johnny depp but jeffrey 1st of all let's get to julie to saddam's because while the world's media was talking about amber heard arguably the future of free speech free expression of free press was being decided yet again in a london courtroom what do you make of the united states trying to. have new

indictments against you in a tangible healing to just states is trying to crush the girl in a sound in order to do damage to her whistle blowers of the future i'm talking to journalists so that the object in that doing to some extent quite well they want him in prison for 175 years the charges they require we can we can tell how many years he'll get because his. source kills the mapping got 35 years before she was part by president obama so i think good understand if he does get extradited will get 50 years and he went to power by president truck that's for sure but why would have turned into a lovely healing spell why would they suddenly at this late stage and we have meals melter he you're un special rapporteur on things being tortured here in britain why

this late stage would raid they be trying to change the indictments against a sanch maybe even stopping the old ones are trying to cane it they're trying to add to it over a broad conspiracy charge going back to his days as a juvenile hacker in australia all the people literally persons unknown is the phrase they're using to me encourage to send him secret with the leaks and of course in those days weekly chs was rather good because it exposed the tricks of scientology to be exposed corruption it did a lot of good things where back in his early days which now the americans are trying to turn into a past experience this may be a bigger. those they feel the case isn't strong enough be evidence of persecution

is pretty strong because it's been shown that he's and his his hideaway in the ecuadorian 'd embassy was bugged by the americans that they had intercepted conference will have her subject in a spanish case because of course he felt cia has not admitted to mugging conversations with you i understand jeffrey having been following that case so it was a case of it's a breach of european law it's the sort of thing that caused the pentagon papers case to be derailed because they bugged and stole stuff from the sources office so it is the kind of evidence coming out that they may not like there was a suggestion that the white house wanted it to be postponed until after the

elections because some evidence was going to come out about how overtures were made on behalf of the republican campaign to wikileaks and there was evidence by his fiance who said that one of the guards on behalf of windsor tried to get her baby's nappy so they could analyze the pool in order to see whether assad was a power but there's a lot of clue in the courts of britain that the momentum and more importantly as far as the press were concerned was he left it on johnny depp's bed so i'm afraid that was what the media was interested in but yeah exactly you successfully you've successfully overturned so many wrongful convictions here you presumably are not going to be called a witness to the spanish court where bound to the guards on is trying to complain.

or at least sort out with a cia link company you say global were bugging you yourself in the ecuadorian embassy can you remember any of your cases where a cia link company was abusing client or lawyer privilege none that i know of but i wouldn't necessarily know but there is julian a sour 100 journalists letters and publisher who is locked up in coakley dangerous in belmarsh and he can only talk to his lawyers now after 10 minutes telephone calls for 10 minutes and it's difficult to prepare a case he could have been let out on bail under a kind of house arrest or mansion arrest in the country where alec chronic shackles would prevent him from leaving but at least he'd be able to prepare his case with concentration that did not appeal so he is

looking at the barrel of a gun which will provide him with life imprisonment to die in an american supermax it might come by air when the americans have their way and i think it is as american as american journalists are now realizing it is correct to freedom of speech because the argument from white house is putting forward is that he doesn't deserve the 1st amendment because he's not an american in australia and that it doesn't apply to any journalist working for american papers you you were retained by julian assange you've defended him so is jennifer robinson amber heard lawyer that's why she says she was in the news so is amal clooney and the guardian newspaper which partnered up with wiki leaks printed an article in the past few days as this hearing was. being discussed in london

and then the journey in print in an article saying he's basically a russian asset. he has a russian asset and defacto as a man you yourself were defending a russian as a not a journalist at all i didn't see that article that stebbins i suppose from the 'd american news about wiki leaks publishing stuff that they may have obtained from russian sources from russian hackers but you've got to remember wiki leaks had the idea or publishing anything of public interest and that what they published about the democratic national committee showed that there was a lot of jiggery poker e carrying on to stop bernie sanders getting the nomination and 5 members of that committee had to resign but people are realizing that perhaps if the cia

had secretly slipped him some information about mr putin and his wealth or his involvement in assassination in britain then he would have had the integrity to publish classes well when we hear and we don't know because he published collateral murder which was evidence of certainly him rights crime the killing of journalists it was really a case of burial manslaughter i suppose so so that nothing ever been tried in that way in the d.n.c. meanwhile joe biden the presidential contender said and then when he mixes as almost an enemy combatant seem to reflect pompei own no reflection of the resignation of you mentioned high tech terrorists who were in finance or going to the russia report because even though no evidence was found by the russian or border. intelligence and security committee here the recommendations were that we

may need american style espionage act which is under which no one has been cross canada penitentiaries and freeze the prison governor out of the prevent and prot is the object now but it would cause we haven't had much luck with treason prosecutions we allowed him philby it to escape we allowed blunt's to continue selecting the queens. so there's been a reluctance to use the earth in $81.00 treason act and i think it would be a great mistake to update it it should be abolished because it's one of these vague laws about and compassing the overthrow of the monarch and i think to use it against people who have. assisted particular russian

list would be wrong a much better idea frankly is to have a rigorous foreign interests so that those who act for foreign governments must come clean about it and tend to see what will that mean for me saying because i think his statement they stand by the russian duma the b.b.c. obviously likewise mandated by the british parliament to broadcast overseas does that mean the registering of found foreign journalists i'm one of them even bankers actually bankers who work say for h.s.b.c. or a company in the city of london well i think this is reasonable but of course the problem with reduced ration of as a foreign interest is shown in russia or in singapore where they've forced amnesty international and other human rights groups to register and then create all kinds of bureaucratic problems so you've got a box these laws and. there is

a good law that's been suggested incredibly you can donate 10000 pounds to a british political party without any money laundering scrutiny so this is quite serious people are upset because russian oligarchs wives don't make hundreds of thousands in return for a tennis match with power strong soon and it's clear that money that comes to any political party from abroad should be able to save a $10000.00 pounds should be subject to money laundering routes and at the moment it's not so i think that's one valuable law that will come from the russia report which didn't find any russian interference in brake usage but said that was because m i 5 wasn't looking well i've only seen

a tory say all that russian oligarch money entirely innocent donation to the tory party i just want to quickly just ask here we have seen case because we had someone on he said that. jeffrey epstein was working for the israelis the israeli government denied it and now the lane maxwell finds herself on remand in a brooklyn prison how safe is shane here in that her friend that seeing died in a new york prison well is interesting because it may seem quixotic given's there's so much injustice in the world to care about him justice delayed max but you know you judge a system of law by how it treats its most unprepossessing people and the kabul i'm with american lore in these high profile cases is that there's no contempt of court or as we have in britain so there's massive judgment it's as if she's crazy. guilty and good judge so so so strong and so good strap

and allowed and i find those astonishing allowed 3 fourths of commission witnessed at least to oppose bail and just say she's almost she's a sociopath i'm disapproves he will report it and this is because america has no who contempt of court loose designed to protect a crime and as a result there is a massive amount of if you can see against and of course we've seen a number of high profile merican trials but pretty quickly to sing with your it can produce a wrong good well she denies all the charges all wrong doings every romantic you say thank you very much after the break does u.k. prime minister boris johnson stand a chance when he is negotiators enter the dragon's den of the world's largest trading block for you we ask t.v.

star and business mogul deborah meeting it's time for u.k. business to leave the country paulism or coming i'm about to do i'm going underground. backstabbers financial survival guide. housing bubble all. oh you mean there's a downside to artificial mortgage through dr carried away that's cause report. join me every 1st week on the alex simon show and i'll be speaking to guest of the world of politics sports business i'm show business i'll see you then. welcome back to validation of going underground joining me now from somerset in

england is dragon's den business mogul debra median and the reason there were you on the show is really to explain to us what is in store for small businesses now we're hearing from britain's e.u. negotiated david frost that basically the e.u. has to accept the deal on the table what will it mean for me businesses in this country well it's not enough that we've been living in sort of limbo land not really understanding what the dance steps and to the right and of course was also as if you know which is a pretty rocky anyway. but it i think is very worrying indeed is that businesses that probably don't have a huge say you know in the u.s. and the world you know there's a lot of just in time stuff. probably going to like cash employed in their businesses and not sitting with this great lump of money at the 1st hour that they're looking for and thinking i don't know what i've got to do i've got a government telling me prepare but i don't want to carry on the phrases actually

to prepare for all possible outcomes do so through in the corridors of white all they respect to or business people so why should they think that they do that anyway on a regular basis therefore they don't have a problem with the uncertainty of a veolia the issue for me with all possible latham's is that takes money you know and actually it's madness you know it's crazy you look at a business you think about what's the most likely outcome and you prepare for it but the most likely outcome you know you look around you take a chance of all of the absentee things my just says this is obvious that. there is such scant information there is such a muddled horizon that i don't now from this is me who spends my lunch trotting through issues a scent that doesn't add. doesn't it doesn't matter if i don't know how we were kant's what is the most likely scenario as sussan we don't have

a lot of trust sitting around you know what's happened money then that it's yes interesting the government themselves and the reason that they didn't have and made says is that it would have been a wrong decision to put a load of cash into a load event ventilators just in case there are still businesses to put a lot of cash into them into what all probably be totally irrelevant projects that is just not joined up. oil more disturbing arguably if you believe the sources that are talking to the financial times was this report that the people in white always saying they could use covert to mosque the economic negative consequences of a no deal brokered and at the end of the year presumably the government would say that definitely is not the case do you think that could be the case and there are people thinking. well if it is the case is a pretty ugly mindset you know. and that really is what we should be spending our

time walking around the halls of whitehall talking we should be talk about how we get ourselves as it is don't be very difficult to distinguish what's happened because of what has happened because of threats it and it might be helpful to the government that would probably have struggled with a with a very difficult scenario. and i do think it will let people off the hook that's what i you know and i don't like letting the i think people make decisions on their own i agree with them i don't agree with them i hope they get them right to get it right well done if they don't get it right then they they should be held responsible for it and i think them they could be an element of why wouldn't they have a. well they're saying they're trying their best to learn how many requests you are getting for venture capital how many business plans are being sent at the moment but i mean how do you think people fear when they were giving low and bails out

ryanair easyjet $600000000.00 b.a. $600000000.30 well confirmed the $260000000.00 gregg's $150600000000.00 i know how the money for as amy's life support but what do you think we're thinking when the biggest companies in the country seem to have got so much money from the bank of england in tows alone facilities well i. say fasten your son so he's less unease but the truth of the matter is that they're very happy companies that they have jobs and they're betting at an area that tax revenues they're betting on economic stability even if we're not in a not presence so i don't have an issue with looking at a business what fundamentally survive beyond this as opposed to it for i say that whether it's a big business or whether it's a small business we should not support industries that are fundamentally a problem because you know that's just the money out of badger we should be spending that money looking at new industries in the new shape so so you know i

don't say worry about the fact that we're saving jobs for people and we're trying to stabilize an army i don't think i think that's a good way to spend our money and i think in early days i was pretty commenting about whether sportiness unease because they had moved quickly they made promises quite quickly and they actually delivered the casket as we've gone they felt clunky they haven't looked at individual industries in a i think a particularly in-depth way in what they should be doing is worth in the trade associations in dealing not just with industries as a whole you can't talk about hospitality industry money in the halls or all is a part you know. but look at each section that industry and understand what it needs to support and i'd be a bit disappointed about the targeted support now that they had the time to understand you know the difference of some to different parts of the different industries goldman sachs needed money from the u.s.

taxpayer back in 2008 which is so like emanates from goldman sachs that kind of ethos is the is the 1st 1st straw to be clutched at by someone from that kind of inheritance going to be this soviet style bailout i mean when you think about it for a time i don't know whether if the case right now the government oversees the figures most people are being in effect most people are in effect employed by the government you're too he went all there's nothing companies saying you know they need to be bailed out we've turned into the u.s.s.r. . it's a good point and it's a really good question because we didn't with the support issue how do we get people through this what we're not really to make is how we shape the thing that they've got to get through so so you know new industries encouraging people to behave and i encourage people rewarding people i'm actually told going into the emergent you know the state ability industries the i.t. industries that are going to do pretty well as software companies so so so along

with you know there's pieces that they need to get everybody through this and then there's a piece says we need to die then into a long term and sustainable industry not just but we need to hold on we need to make sure that we get through to the time that we can make a bit of money because with fundamentally change and you know we still feels a bit like we're just trying to get back so the norm when we should be looking so the future this is a really good moment to do that and the government needs to get more intelligence about doing that both because in our own building a different. one but isn't that a bit disturbing for a dragon in the sense of people really are questioning whether this of moore's law of the economy is right or do we have some or all of your own recently you saying there's a reason why big business is work so well without internal markets within the big businesses and i thought just economies of scale they are more efficient that's why

wal-mart is more efficient that's why there's a big tech business when defending themselves in coal rest being accused of market move that's why their businesses are efficient they run like the soviet union well absolutely and i think that's a problem and i think that is the area of a very clunky and old fashioned way of doing business and i think the businesses that will survive are the ones who actually simply agile felisa thought they can check you know out of the well already 5 years ago i was gentle some have asked the world is changing the same guys the most simple. and you can see if anybody is agility you know just good just went on agility and you win the world and actually this big business is that company that can change so fast what it can do is have a disproportionate voice in government that's worrying because what it was trying so things done keep things as they were the consumer is changing that is you know has actually changed the might they be false to you know their model virtual and

much happier better we will shop in a microscope in what more are not communicated by on line we've built in our lives in a different way we're worried about sustainability in the juarez valley and it's the business businesses that doesn't fundamentally change their view the way they look and the way they look at the gun to the left is good news in the s. and p's a very well placed to take advantage. of them is on google and these companies will say we are just as agile as the smallest business in fact we can take over and buy out the small business in fact who are regulars then a little about venture capital taking over innovation from the small guy so that doesn't really end a big business it doesn't start a big business is consolidating and take a why it all up again we get back to this soviet style of state capitalism that's why i've completely agree with you and actually the business is that you thought

about it all right giles and they are all good looking and they are having a major influence on the way we do business and it's our i don't want rate i don't quite dragons' that because dragons we are we are and that lists but we are looking for the arcsin aware of the assembly and we're. looking for the new ideas america besting and those people to carry and you want to as i help them hey i mean i always say every big business needs to remember it was a small business it's actually is a small business is just bigger and they somehow the. and i sed i looked the businesses that got potential for growth into larger businesses it kind it doesn't matter who owns those businesses as long as the market forces them to behave as individual businesses because they're a big umbrella organization oh lots of different platforms and lots of different businesses but within and each of those platforms have had to. stop the

entrepreneur entering the market building something you know coming up with a great idea has it doesn't does it matter that it goes on to be owned by somebody else all it goes on to be the business that owns other businesses that's how it works but it's the essence of it and got to change it's got to stay entrepreneurial fleets of those at heart and that's what the big monkey business is with crutches and too much legacy a calm is ok we're just virally we began by talking about me really agile whoever you are because of the break. is still your view that the british people didn't really vova breaks at all and there was russia that interfered with the break out now so that's never been my view as we did the press it you know so the question is how much were they influenced well i think russia obviously played

a part. i but i think there are a lot of influences you know there are a lot of people banding around a lot of meaningless words a point we were making decisions and. listen i only didn't understand many nations of bricks and i live in the you know in the biz you know i did. it some peels for me how everything. is is integrated with the us by modern life worrying about what we're going to give of the rights so i am sorry but i defy anybody who was going to. make such a men's decision to fully understand me including what that decision meant. well pressure of course denies any interference but there were even thank you very much love to have you all again as we hopefully get some clarity about what business is both of you about planning thanks so much and that's it for this long

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