but after a time cheney or watching another lockdown edition of going underground when we tried to bring you the stories that made a nation mainstream media just don't appear to want to bring 2 year coming up on the show why does the press think amber heard testifying to support rupert murdoch against johnny depp is more important than the founder of wiki leaks julian assange being tortured in britain according to the u.n. as he faces new indictments for appealing u.s. war crimes we talk to someone who continues to fight for julian assange one of the top human rights barristers in the world the streets of queens counsellor geoffrey

robertson and time for business owners in the u.k. to relocate to the e.u. and how will the u.k. leverage coronavirus for brics it with exactly 5 months until boris johnson's version of bricks of dragon's den star and businesswoman deborah meade and tells us why britain should have never said. it to the world's largest trading bloc paulism or coming up in this a lockdown edition yet again of going underground but joining me now from london via skype is geoffrey robertson q.c. one of the world's greatest human rights barristers co-founder of doubt he street one of his colleagues recently in the news with amber heard is she was brought in as a witness in support of rupert murdoch against johnny depp but jeffrey 1st of all let's get to juliette as arms because while the world's media was talking about amber heard arguably the future of free speech free expression of free press was being decided yet again in a london courtroom what do you make of the united states trying to have a new indictments against julian assange are we. trying to crush julian assange it

or to do damage. whistle blow the future. i'm talking to journalists that's the object and they're doing to some extent quite well they want him in prison for 175 years the charges they greeks are we can we can tell how many years he'll get because his. source kills the manning got 35 years before she will part by president obama so i think during those aren't if he does get extradited we'll get 50 years and he won't get our by president truck that's for sure but why would have turned into a lovely healing spell why would they suddenly at this late stage and we have neal's melter he you're un special rapporteur on things being tortured here in

britain why this late stage would wait maybe trying to change the indictments against a sanch maybe even stopping the old ones are trying to cane it they're trying to add to it over to a broad conspiracy charge going back to his days as a juvenile hacker in australia all the people literally persons unknown is the phrase they're using to me encourage to send him secret set with the leaks and of course in those days weekly kes was rather good because it exposed the courage of scientology to be exposed corruption it did a lot of good things where back in his early days which now the americans are trying to turn into a vast conspiracy this may be because they feel the case isn't strong

enough to be evidence of persecution is pretty strong because it's been shown that he's and his. his hideaway in the ecuadorian 'd embassy was bugged by the americans that they had intercepted contant was a subject of a spanish case because of course he felt cia has not admitted to mugging conversations with you i understand jeffrey having been following that case so it was a case of it's a breach of european law it's the sautter thing that caused the pentagon papers case to be derailed because they bugged and stole stuff from the sources office so it is the kind of evidence coming out that they may not like there was a suggestion that the white house wanted it to be postponed until after the elections because some evidence was going to come out about how overtures were

made on behalf of the republican campaign to wiki leaks and there was evidence by his fiance who said that one of the guards on behalf. and tried to get her baby's nappy so they could analyze the poo in order to see whether a sound was a power but there's a lot of clue in the courts person that the moment and more importantly as far as the press were concerned it was he left it on johnny depp's bed so i'm afraid that was what the media was interested in what you have said to you successfully and you you've successfully overturned so many wrongful convictions here you presumably are not going to be called a witness to the spanish court we're bound to the laws on is trying to complain or at least to sort out whether the cia link company you see global were bugging

you yourself in the ecuadorian embassy can you remember any of your cases where a cia link company was. abusing client lawyer privilege none that i know of that i wouldn't necessarily know but there is julian a sartre journalist lettuce and publisher who is locked up in coakley dangerous in belmarsh and he can only talk to his lawyers now after 10 minutes telephone calls for 10 minutes and it's difficult to prepare a case he could have been let out on bail under a kind of house arrest or mansion arrest in the country where alec chronic shackles would prevent him from leaving but at least he'd be able to prepare his case with concentration that did not appeal so he's

looking at the barrel of a gun which will provide him with life imprisonment to die in an american supermax it might come by air when the americans have their way and i think it is as american as american journalists are now realizing it is correct to freedom of speech because the argument from white house is putting forward is that he doesn't deserve the 1st amendment because he's not an american in australia and that it doesn't apply to any journalist working for american papers you you were retained by julian assange and you've defended him so is jennifer robinson amber heard lawyer that's why she says she was in the news so is a mark looney the guardian newspaper which partnered up with wiki leaks printed an article in the past few days as this hearing was being discussed in london

and the earlier britain an article saying he's basically a russian asset. he has a russian asset and defacto as a menu yes. self when defending a russian as a not a journalist at all i didn't see that article that stebbins i suppose from the american news about wiki leaks publishing stuff that they may have obtained from russian sources from russian hackers but you've got to remember wiki leaks had the idea or publishing anything of public interest and that what they published about the democratic national committee to show that there was a lot of jiggery poker e caring ought to stop bernie sanders getting the nomination and 5 members of that committee had to resign but people are realizing that perhaps if the cia

had secretly slipped him some information about mr putin and his wealth or his involvement in assassination in britain then he would have had the integrity to publish classes well when we hear and we don't know because he published collateral murder which was evidence of certainly in wright's crime the killing of journalists it was really a case of burial manslaughter i suppose so so that's not nothing never been tried in that way the d.n.c. meanwhile joe biden the presidential contender said and then when he mixes as almost an enemy combatant seem to reflect pompei own no reflection of the resignation of you mentioned high tech terrorists who were in finance or going to the russia report because even though no evidence was found by the russian or border by the intelligence and security committee here the recommendations were

that we may need american style espionage act which is under which no one has been cross canada dentistry. isn't eric freeze the prison gunpowder creek prevision and prot is the object now but it would cause we haven't had much luck with treason prosecutions we allowed him philby to escape we allowed blood to continue selecting the queen's. so there's been a reluctance to use the earth in $81.00 treason act ad i think it would be a great mistake to update it it should be abolished because it's one of these vague laws about and compassing the overthrow of the monarch and i think to use it against people who have. assisted particular russian

list would be wrong a much better idea frankly is to have a register foreign interests so that those who act for foreign governments must come clean about it and tend to see what will that mean for me say because i think the same and they stand by the russian duma the b.b.c. obviously likewise mandated by the british parliament to broadcast overseas does that mean the registering of fan foreign journalists i'm one of them even bankers actually bankers who work say for h.s.b.c. or a company in the city of london well i think this is reasonable but of course the problem with reduced ration of as a foreign interest is shown in russia or in singapore where they've forced amnesty international and other human rights groups to register and then create all kinds of bureaucratic problems so you've got a box these laws and there is a good law that's been suggested incredibly you can donate more than 10000 pounds

to a british political party without any money lower. during scrutiny so this is quite serious people are upset because russian oligarchs wives naik hundreds of thousands in return for a tennis match with power strong soon and it's clear that money that comes to any political party from abroad should be able to able $10000.00 pounds should be subject to money laundering routes and at the moment it's not so i think that's $1.00 valuable law that will come from the russia report which didn't find any russian interference in brady said but said that was because m i 5 wasn't looking well obviously the toys say all that russian oligarch

money the entirely innocent donation to the tory party i just want to quickly just ask you about the epstein case because we had someone on he said that. jeffrey epstein was working for the israelis the israeli government denied it and now the lane maxwell finds herself on remand in a brooklyn prison how safe is shane here in that her friend that seeing died in a new york prison well it is interesting because it may seem quixotic given's there's so much injustice in the world or to care about injustice give a max well but you know you judge a system of law by how it treats its most unprepossessing people and the combo i'm with american law or in these high profile cases is that there's no contempt of court or as we have in britain so there's massive judgement it's as if she's presumed guilty and the judge her so said is wrong ever so gets trapped

and allowed and i find this astonishing allowed 3 or 6. to oppose but you just say she's almost she's associate. he's a reporter and this is because america has no who who designed to protect the prize. as a result there is a massive. against and of course we've seen in a number of american trials pretty quickly to seeing that your. produce a wrong good will she denies all the charges all wrongdoing every row it's accusing thank you very much after the break does u.k. prime minister boris johnson stand a chance when he is negotiate his end of the dragons' den of the world's largest trading bloc we ask t.v. star and business mogul deborah meeting it's time for u.k.

business to leave the country paulism all coming over by doing going underground. the sudden and illegal takeover of a government by a small group. rather than revolutionaries all soldiers that's a small group the operation when you have a tiny people who have all the power you have to have some means to make sure the rest of us don't get together and. these are sacrificed. places that capitalism exploited and destroyed for profit and left behind misery poverty environmental devastation and so you see things

like voter suppression building more prisons you seem gerrymander all sorts of. pratik practices are well in that world we're well into the world and there's no question that the critical. to what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have it's crazy confrontation let it be an arms race is on offer and spearing dramatic development only really i'm going to resist i don't see how that strategy will be successful very critical time to sit down and talk. welcome back to this lockdown edition of going underground joining me now from somerset in england is dragons den business mogul debra median and the reason there

were so you on the show is really to explain there was what is in store for small businesses now we're hearing from britain's e uni goshi to david frost that basically the e.u. has to accept the deal on the table what will it mean for as so many businesses in this country well it's not enough that we've been living in sort of limbo land not really understanding what that answer. was also as you know which is a pretty rough anyway. but i think it is very worrying indeed the businesses that probably have a huge say you know and yes and we know there's a lot of just in time so. probably going to like cash employed in their businesses and not sitting with this great lump of money at the 1st hour that they're looking people wasn't thinking i don't know what i've got to do i've got a government telling me prepare but i don't want to carry all the phrases actually

to prepare for all possible outcomes do so through in the corridor was a white all they respect to all business people so why should they think that they do. anyway on a regular basis therefore they don't have a problem with the uncertainty of brotherly the issue for me with all possible ask comes is that takes money you know actually it's madness you know it's crazy you look at a business you think about what's the most likely outcome and you prepare for it but the most likely outcome you look around you take account of all of the factors if you think my justin says this is probably the things that happen there is such scant information there is such a muddled horizon that i don't know this is me who spends my life cutting through issues a cent that doesn't matter but doesn't it doesn't matter if i don't know how we were kant's what is the most likely scenario as sussan we don't have a lot of sitting around you know what chappell owed money then and there it's yes

interesting the government themselves and the reason that they didn't have enough and nighters is that it would have been a wrong decision to put a load of cash into a load event ventilators just in case they're asking businesses to put a lot of cash into them into what will probably be socially relevant projects that is just not joined up. oil more disturbing arguably if you believe the sources that are talking to the financial times was this report that the people in white always saying they could use covert to mosque the economic negative consequences of a no deal brokered and at the end of the year presumably big government would say that definitely is not the case do you think that could be the case and there are people thinking like well if it is the case it's a pretty ugly mindset you know. and that really is what we should be spending our

time walking around the halls of whitehall talking we should be talk about how we get ourselves as it is don't be very difficult to distinguish what's happened and the edge of what has happened because bret's it and it might be helped hold the governments that would probably have struggled with a with a very difficult scenario. and i do think it will let people off the hook you know and i don't like letting the i think people make decisions about their i i agree with them i don't agree with them i hope they get them right get them right well done if they don't get them right then they they should be held responsible for it and i think them there could be an element of why wouldn't they. well they're saying they're trying their best to learn how many request you are getting for venture capital how many business plans are being sent at the moment but i mean how do you think people fear when the bank of england bails out ryanair easyjet

$600000000.00 b.a. $600000000.30 well confirmed the $260000000.00 gregg's $150600000000.00 i know they have very money for as amy's life support but what do you think they're thinking when the biggest companies in the country seem to have got so much money from the bank of england in tow the loan facilities well i am just a facet of this until his lesson is but the truth of the matter is that they're very happy companies that they have jobs and they're betting at an area that tax revenues are economic stability even if we're not adding anything at price so i don't have an issue with looking at a business what fundamentally survive beyond this as opposed it for i say that while there is a big business or whether it's a small business we should not support industries that are fundamentally a problem because you know that's just the money out of badger we should be spending that money looking at new industries in the new shape so so you know i

don't say worry about the fact that we're saving jobs for people and we're trying to stabilize an army i don't i think that's a good way to spend the money and i think in the early days i was pretty comments about whether sportiness unease because they had moved quickly they made promises quite quickly and they actually delivered the task but as we've gone they felt clunky they haven't looked at individual industries in a i think a particularly in-depth way what they should be doing is worth in the trade associations in dealing not just with industries as a whole you can't talk about hospitality industry money in the halls or all is a part you know. but look at each section that industry and understand what it needs to support and i think a bit disappointed about the target is now that they had the time to understand you know the different effects on the different parts of the different industries goldman sachs needed money from the u.s.

taxpayer back in 2008 which is so not emanates from goldman sachs that kind of ethos is the is the 1st 1st straw to be clutched at by someone from that kind of inheritance going to be this soviet style bailout i mean when you think about it for a time i don't know whether if the case right now the government over here is the figures most people are being in effect most people are in effect employed by the government here too he went all the math of companies saying you know they need to be bailed out we've turned into the u.s.s.r. . it's a good point and it's a really good question because we didn't with the support issue how do we get people through this what we're not really to make is how we shape the thing that they've got to get through so so you know new industries encouraging people to behave and i encourage people rewarding people i'm actually full going into the emergent you know this is a billet industry is the i.t. industries that are going to do pretty well as software companies so so so along

with you know there's pieces that they need to get everybody through this and then that is a piece it says we need to die then into a long and sustainable industry not just but we need to hold on we need to make sure that we get through to the time that we can make a bit of money because with fundamentally change and you know we still feels a bit like we're just trying to get back so the norm when we should be looking so the future this is a really good moment to do that and the government needs to get more intelligence about doing that because in our own building a different. thing but isn't that a bit disturbing for a dragon in the sense of people really are questioning whether this of moore's law of the economy is right at all we have some or all of your own recently you saying there's a reason why big businesses work so well without internal markets within the big businesses and i thought just economies of scale they are more efficient that's why

wal-mart is more efficient that's why there's a big tech business when defending themselves in coal rest being accused of market move elation that's why their businesses are efficient they run like the soviet union well absolutely and i think that's a problem and i think that is very a very clunky and old fashioned way of doing business and i think the businesses that will survive are the ones you're actually simply agile fleece of they can check you know out of the well already 5 years ago i was gentle some have asked the world is changing the same guys the most simple. and you can see if anybody is agility you know just good just went on agility and you win the world and actually this big business is that company that can change so awful it can do is have a disproportionate voice in government that's worrying because what it was trying so things done and keep things as they were the consumer is changing that is you know has actually changed of a mighty big balls to you know their model virtual and much happier better with my

massage in what more are not communicated by online we've built in our lives in a different way we're worried about sustainability the worries of the business businesses that doesn't fundamentally change their view the way they look and the way they look at the gun to the left is good news in the s. and p's a burial place to take advantage. of them is on google and these companies will say we are just as agile as the smallest business here fact we can take over and buy out the small business in fact who are regulars then a little about venture capital taking over innovation from the small guy so that doesn't really end a big business it doesn't start a big business is consolidating and taking why it all up again we get back to this soviet style of state capitalism that's why i simply agree with ian actually the business is that you thought about it all right giles and they are all good looking

and they are having a major influence on the way we do business and it's our i don't want rate i don't equate dragons that is dragons we are we are and that list but we are looking for the arcs in aware of the assembly and with the extreme looking for the new ideas america besting and those people to carry x. and you want to is unhealthily i mean i always say every big business needs to remember it was a small business it's actually is a small business is just big and they somehow the. and when i say either of the businesses that got potential for growth into larger businesses it kind it doesn't matter who owns those businesses as long as the market forces them to behave as individual businesses because they're a big umbrella organization oh lots of different platforms and lots of different businesses but within and each of those platforms have had to. stop the

entrepreneur entering a market building something you know coming up with a great idea has it doesn't does it matter that it goes on to be owned by somebody else all it goes on to be the business that owns other businesses that's how it works but it's the essence of it and got to change it's got to stay on top of mariel fleets of 1st of hearts and that's the big monkey business is with crutches and too much legacy and calm is ok we're just virally when we go away talking about me really agile whoever you are because of the break. is still your view that the british people didn't really vova breaks at all and there was russia that interfered with the break out now so that's never been my view because we did breaks it you know so the question is how much were they influenced well i think russia obviously played a part. i but i think there are

a lot of influences you know there are a lot of people banding around a lot of meaningless words a point we were making decisions and. listen i only didn't understand many cases of bret's and i live in the you know in the biz you know i just understand. it some peels for me how everything. is is integrated with the e.u. i spend my life worrying about what we're going to do with the rights so i am sorry but i defy anybody who was at that point and someone to make such a mental decision to fully understand me including what that decision. well pressure of course denies any interference would ever mean thank you very much love to be on again as we hopefully get some clarity about what business is president about planning thanks so much and that's it for this long television on

going underground on that monday we'll talk about going into outer space stay safe . ah no tea no crowd. no shots. actually dealt. with well dr no one. point sure your thirst for action. join me every thursday on the alex simon show and i'll be speaking to guest of the world of politics sports business i'm show business i'll see you then.