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hello and welcome to cross talk all things considered i'm peter lavelle the end of a love story will tensions in the u.s. german relationship determine the fate of nato and if elected will joe biden be america's version of the soviet ruler lenin who. discuss this and more i'm joined by my guest bundy's and a slow he is an associate professor at the university of southeastern norway as well as the author of russia's geo economic strategy for a greater eurasia and in budapest we have george samuel he is author of bombs for peace nato is humanitarian war on yugoslavia gentlemen crossed up rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate ok let's go to also 1st there's a lot of discussion about trump's decision to move i think what $12000.00 troops

out of germany and the the the theme is that coming out of the white house germany is not paying its nato bills but that i'm not satisfied with that explanation oh by the way it's bipartisan it's a bad idea everyone knowing i know everyone that knows me watching this program i think nato should be dissolved completely but nonetheless glenn you know the top line story here is miss place this is about a fraught relationship that germany has had with in nato with the united states leading that alliance since the. since they're not in the end in the end of the 1940 s. all the way to the end of the cold war in 1901 it so there's something much bigger players go ahead. well obviously he's a much much bolder than his predecessors no you are correct this is something that's always been yeah some tensions in the relationship has always gone on for example throughout the cold war americans were to

a large extent concerned about some of the european integration and us remember after the cold war you had medlin albright to cautioning the europeans that you know the e.u. should not be a couple from nato remember that nato stimming institutions now. this because well they are simply because the european integration and the ablest this continent to use collective bargaining power to have greater equality in relations with united states so this is quite normal for any country why would you cooperate with 27 to 27 countries seeking. in the negotiate from business a signal strength and they always have the incentive to deal with one state individual instead of a bilateral basis and then maximize their influence however to us nonetheless membership support of european integration of least a certain extent because that provides the price united states with a very powerful lot was very important to recognize this dilemma that the u.s. always space saw a strong e.u. weakens the u.s.

within the west however a stronger or a partnership with the e.u. then also becomes a source of collect intentionally and us to empower a strong army to control together now i think now in the last few years this relation fence began to change largely because of the rise of asia with china at the center because the u.s. wants to spend less on europe this older began with obama however they want more loyalty to the u.s. in terms of use our energy our technologies our corporations our transportation course banks etc etc so and a lot of others on europeans do want more autonomy so and at the same time to still want americans to pay for security so this is a relationship that's always been yes on some tensions and it's always been. or should and i think what we're seeing now i get asked to be read the fine and i think it's a mistake to simply dismiss it or trump being ironic not saying it is not erotic. well i mean erratic i mean you know use of moved in troops to another country like

poland ok the u.s. promised it would do at the end of the cold war also i find it really quite amusing that you know this bipartisan hair on fire is that you know it's going to cost too much money to do relocate these assets here george they never complain about the cost of the military when they're escalating but they do complain when they deescalate why interesting go ahead george that's exactly right if they the one item in the budget that never causes any control the scene washington that's the military budget that i just say i'm screwed. from propose a 730000000000 the democrats say 717 mil 1000000000 are less split the difference i think to some 65000000000 and i just it just waltzes through proly apparent control or see in the the bitter fighting between the democrats and republicans militaries . and of course in this case trump's proposal to withdraw all these 12000

troops from germany has indeed been attacked by actually i mean both democrats and republicans have condemned. drums with rope and opposed that's always the case the moment there's any discussion of withdrawing u.s. troops so many ways whether it's syria again bipartisan hysteria withdraw from afghanistan. and remember. the whole story of the russian bounties on the u.s. servicemen you know you don't mean the story only wheeled out precisely at the time when he seems like where u.s. troops are about to leave. just as the trunk wants to withdraw from syria we saw here. about the gallant cuts we must save the cuz the cars are of the greatest ally in the world so i would expect at some point you know maybe next week some stories along the lines of there's some russian john plot taking place in bali and

putin is engineering some kind of a major crisis in john many so we mustn't absolutely mustn't. withdraw any troops from germany the less this always fits into a passion and of course you're absolutely right with withdrawing troops of germany in fact you know making steps to you know bring this nato this museum really lets us know those political strategic books to an end can only be a good thing i mean sadly i think we're still a long way from that at least it seems like a step in that direction you know big claim you know and reading the main mainstream media press on this topic here never once did i come across that public opinion poll consistently in germany would like to see the american treat troops leave their country 75 years after the bank wishing up nazi germany but it's never mentioned in the press that you know they the troops they're just not wanted

they're not needed and and really what this gets it what's coming into for here in your 1st answer was quite eloquent is that you just have american exceptionalism against european ideas of security and they're clashing. there well the mission of nato has changed because it will initially when it came to place the whole argument was a western europe was very much we can from the war and americans needed to stay there until they could be temporarily strengthened and then leave them and this was the famous quote eisenhower when he was the supreme commander of nato he argued that you know in 1051 the argument for still there in 10 years this whole mission would have failed because we didn't build up their p. and some didn't. back well no the situation just show a strategy for understeer isn't so it union 2nd year is very much rebuilt but that's what's got before the new keeper is now it's just our structure which emerged during the cold war which is the u.s.

base for security and the europeans largely it to us are told but you're also correct that there is a discrepancy between the political leadership and the population mean almost every year to do this poll so who's the greatest way disagrees threat to international security come from and almost all america's allies say the united states so that there is this. is the difficulty in the relations. so i think we with that argument i think within washington you get 2 different perspectives one is from this argument essentially you know when to punish the germans because they will do us we're told and if you're shifting the troops in iraq then you're essentially punishing them so from the terms perspective is actually a saving they don't by having this punishment and reward based on their loyalty to the united states it's more from congress you get this other perspective which is you know if you alienate. you know the europeans the germans spend effectively you're handing them over to the russians and chinese that this could be

a kremlin conspiracy you know i mean yes it's actually very multi-dimensional is george i mean they ever since they got drunk talked about it when he was a candidate and now president is that there's been a theory out there is that you know forcing the european countries or you of the nato members to spend more weight in the nation they did these nato members would realize well why are we spending so much money because it really isn't a threat to our security here and that would be a way for example say see if i force you to pay more you don't want to be more than you see if there is no threat you know me and they actually spend it coming to fruition in a very near where they'll head. yes that was the. the argument and that's and that's a very reasonable which is that you know ok you telling us that you're terribly frightened that this terrible big russian bear in the east ok fine and they some more you know but you know why are we protecting you you're the one who supposedly

in the front line so when they say well i have yeah i know we said we're at the front line but we don't actually mean that we have spent more they said ok fine and we're not going to spend any more so that was that was a reasonable argument but trump also had a deeper argument which is that europe has become an economic rival to the united states i mean it was one thing to. build up. europe's defenses in the 1950 s. and 160 s. but even from the like the seventy's on. west germany and that was go to the time is now becoming a serious economic rival to the united states now you know 4550 years on it we can see the results of this and so therefore it does make very little sense for the united states to be subsidizing a power that is really an economic giant i mean this makes me a salute you know sense and trump realizes this but of course you know there's

a huge powerful well oiled atlanticist establishment that is absolutely hell bent on slaughtering any attempt to. disentangle this relationship so yeah they're they're just they're just too many careers built on this ok i mean the 5000 nato bureaucrats on the continent as well i mean they you know that's that in their entire future when one of the interesting things that i find interesting is that with this i mean the polls want they want to build for trump and they want american troops permanently stationed in poland again that would be against the agreements made ending. the confrontation in in europe with the dissolving of the force. but doesn't poland stay standing like this its position is not really divided nato internally even more because it shows that there is no kind of unified understanding of what the alliance is supposed to do i mean this is an alliance in

search of a mission and the poles are stepping up and defining it for the rest of the member countries thought it. well that was already a concern by. poland and others joined nato because after the cold war there was some concern among for example germany that they didn't want to can cling to russia as a threat they believed that there was able to ice on working relationship with them meanwhile the poles pretty much just wanted to be on the other side of the wall so continue to. rationalize not a solution for nato what you do the western europeans don't want to name russia as a threat and the eastern europeans want to label russia dissolution was attached to strategic ambiguity in order just about democracy stable government and you know with friends to russia and i think to this they guarantee to us russia which is against expansionism and would trigger this security guarantee and wish to converse from being this organization for democracy to again containing russia so that was

the strategic i think you need money you need huge military budgets you depend european democracy i'm not sure i really comprehend that gentlemen i'm going to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and i have to let you know you were discussion on some real news today. rifty for jobs and more than 1300 military personnel are headed to heal some air force base in alaska where is that to say come on i'll show you what's the reason for any type of enhanced us. terry presence in this area rushed up. what is it suddenly about the south china sea that makes it so that it 11000000000 barrels of oil. take a look at this map who really owns what kind of says no it belongs to us india says

no we claim that that belongs to us both of these countries have nuclear weapons capabilities there is reason for concern so that's why we're going to drill down on the story for you today right here on the news of the tranches where you know as we always like to say we do believe. by golly it's time to do news again. welcome back to cross talk were all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're talking about some real names. ok george it's switch gears here none of us are doctors here obviously and but we're all perceptive about politics that's what we do basically for a living in one form or another and watching joe biden i mean it's really it's

quite shocking but we've gotten down to a candidate it could be the democrats of a rally behind if tepidly that is challenged ok he's challenging it in a variety of ways you know that we all know that this is it domestically this is all an anti trump gambit that's very very clear ok it's not voting for joe it's voting against donald trump but if we do have this a bitit ministration the implications are enormous how would the outside world see this who's in charge entered into an agency consensus who's in charge of that i mean it would send a very ambiguous message to the international system george. yes that's it tell you right. what's very sad here is of course how cynical the democrats have been all of this after all biden's physical and mental deterioration well as

apparent throughout the primaries everybody could see it i mean the candidates themselves on the stage was seen to be sniggering at his obvious decrepitude yet they all rally around him they'd all stand why is this because they were absolutely determined to defeat donald trump and they thought that lunch bucket joe with this suppose it links to the in industrial midwest would somehow be the one person who could be absolutely guaranteed to defeat trump now it's becoming clear that this is really very problematic. as people do see. that this is you know how can he last 4 years let alone 8 years so who is going to be running the country now his rise the outside world is concerned well there are no doubt the atlantis is

establishment types were very powerful in europe who would welcome oh it's great this the rich ah no the the obama crowd all the all the safe air of hands for george or maybe even the flipside of what you just said is that an empty vessel that we can fill yes yes yes that's right so that i think i like of that i don't tell him i owe you know you know russia's a rat you know we've got to you know spend more here move troops you know yeah go along with all that so yes no doubt. happy about this but it's a very dangerous situation because to have somebody in the oval office who really isn't up to the job so he can either make absolutely reckless foolish decision all of the do. visual be made by people who have not been elected to anything and what their own agenda that's the point that you know you know glenn you know historically you know we had winston churchill in his 2nd stint as prime minister

he was a be exhibited mental deficiencies obviously this soviet leader he died in power in even ronald reagan in the waning days of his 2nd term in office it would be became obvious that he was having some problems as well now i'm describing 3 individuals historically 3 important historical individuals at the end of their government power service ok we're going to my guidance going in to the white house i mean that should send alarm bells should not go ahead work. with a key difference that it's not end of his term. i agree with fear i was sent before i think that that idea biden is why they want to bring him in because. household name is part of the old guard with obama and this is very much an anti trump platform and. they meant the message of this campaign will be

a return to the normal and he essentially were a sense the positives idea of biden but the realities of this is a great difference with this cognitive ability this card actually quite probably the most agree that's a sense of. the progress either as well because keep in mind that the democrats have all for the last 4 years now been criticizing the mental state i would save quite reasonably pointing to his narcissism but now they're running a candidates roost seemingly struggling with dementia so. it does doesn't bring up a lot of moral issues so. what's going to it's all about winning now of course a wop and after he wins 1st their office become string together a simple. sometimes i think. this is going to be quite a president and the for the rest of the allies especially in europe they're going to see. one they like more than trying but also one snuck well qualified to leave

so i'm again assuming she very much this anti-missile shield church i mean with the most loot one of the most important elements to keep the international system stable is certainty what can what can you expect i mean in this case i mean when i look at you know the last 3 and a half years trump on the margins push back against this interagency consensus but you could have though i'm in the white house in january and it will have no resistance whatsoever it's going to it will sign you know i'll sign anything i mean that you know and then who's making those decisions that didn't insult the world you know unelected bureaucrats that like that's going to create a lot of uncertainty in my mind go ahead yes yes and what we've seen during the trump years and before all is that that unelected bureaucracy is a public menace. they have been pushing their agenda they have ignored the elected

president the i'm the one who actually ran on the platform they simply said well you know we don't care about his fall is that was he ran on we the people in charge because as you say we are the interagency consensus so if i was a dangerous situation how much more like it will this be on the bike and i mean you know dr biden well enjoy you have a good time you don't have to do anything you know spent time with your family you know you know let playing croquet whatever you want to there will run everything. and who are the people going to be running it i mean they will be people like. fiona hill. all that crowd who kind of came out of the woodwork during the trump yes well quite frightening in the kind of pathological view of the well they. they will be in charge and you know this is a real serious threat to democracy i mean what is it like or having elections if the people who are running the country i think to do with any of these elections

and they don't run anything you know they did that's a perfect good point because it just shows you the continued divorce between foreign policy issues and the democratic process ok you know one of the things i find really disturbing is that in the last 3 and a half years trims foreign policy is been all over the place i think that's a fair assessment the fact that it's been all over the place is actually created debate now mostly against him from the interagency consensus but in a bite in ministration we don't even have that debate will instead be is it foreign policy just this is completely separated off into a different realm because you know whoever is assuming the oval office in january will have to deal with a pandemic an economic turndown social unrest here and what i worry is like when george was alluding to is that you know going to have a small you know little cabin in area will get will take care of the rest ok and you know those people taking care of the rest happened just asterisk record over

the last 40 years. and i would also add that what is going to do to this ocean fish and the country to trust in the political game in mind of one of the reasons why people voted for trump even people who didn't care much for mr want to throw a wrench into the system because that distrust of the political class and the media fossick out the chrome at a huge level which is a must definition of populism when people feel alienated from the political cause. they believe the political cost or to distance from them and then you have trump in power and the 1st thing they see is the political cost effectively trying to taking down with this rush and all the other ways a sense of denying the results of the election. hillary obviously leading living it . and once he said well he said i don't care much for the way he leads a list by the time he's gone now they're going to put in biden who was not. who

seems to have dementia and he seems to be the center vessel which again the political east can control it for those in the united states who are not happy with how the political system is going this is going to have probably have a huge reaction this time maybe more from the political right to who will question the legitimacy just like the left children see a challenge the right will not recognize the legitimacy really applied and not because he may be in state election but because. of his mental state well i mean look we have a political system that is not rooted in disbelief ok i mean it is so partisan george and i have talked about this privately a number of times that no matter who is declared to been a picture in november the country is going to explode ok and there's no doubt about it in my mind george that we're rapidly running out of time one of the things i find really. again to the point of bizarre is that you have this black lives matter we've got you know exactly systemic racism and all of that whole narrative that is

in the wake of the of the biden juggernaut as it were in the basement i mean there's no reflection that the american foreign policy for particularly since the end of the 2nd world war and this is we don't very very harshly with people of color around the world you can look at southeast asia you can look at iraq you can look at afghanistan you look at syria i mean there's no reflection is there i mean it's all internal they don't see how foreign policy has been played out the to the detriment of their what quote own values about fighting races go ahead yes that's a very good point that that's exactly that that kind of absolute if ocracy oh you know we really care about you know people of cholera. when they're living abroad i mean then then we really don't care but then they just. like it so frightening that syrians you know that all people of color iraqis they're not people of color you know it's just on them the smithereens are just going back to the point about what

the agenda of the interagency consensus there is no question these people want revenge against russia i mean they they are furious a little bit maybe 16 and one of those dangerous aspects of the a presidency will be. this crowd that will see what they look for payback against russia i mean and i think for the lady who lived through a based on allegations a myth and a hoax ok geez the political left really is a cult ok because it's not based on empirical evidence it's based on fury resentments and revenge that's what we might get in january all right gentlemen that's all the time we have i want to thank my guests and also in budapest and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here our p.c. and x. time remember.

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lying from the world headquarters of the r t america in our nation's capital this. week rick sanchez part about it coming sanchez and i would like to welcome all of you watching all over the world including those of you who are watching us on your phone using the portable t.v. that you can get right here i've never been a proponent by the way of doing the same story that everybody else is doing so right from jump street i want to i want you to know that i'm not going to focus on this pick talk story that the entire media universe seems to be obsessed with right now. but i will say this i will say this still it's kind of dirt.