human value every cultural group you know apart from psychic pos that site but it's everyone and we know this happened like in 2nd world war you know ard french resistance she hides conservative catholics who you know are fighting on. you know rates with radical socialist you know the us people that traditionally hated each other kinds gabba and that's what needs to happen now and it starts in topping of course because there's enormous frustration with radical politics up in the moment . the science is unequivocal if we do not radically reconfigure our relationship to the planet we and most other species will become extinct this extinction is not in the distant future it is happening now there is an average decline of 60 percent of the population size of thousands of vertebrate species around the world since 1970 coral reefs or suffer a massive die offs from heat stress there is over a 70 percent decline in flying insect biome carbon dioxide concentrations are

$415.00 parts per 1000000 an increase of over 45 percent from pre-industrial levels these admissions are at the highest level in at least 3000000 years even if we stop all carbon emissions today the heat trapped in the oceans will continue to push the temperature of the planet upwards for over a decade in the face of this global emergency our ruling elites have done nothing to halt the death march what to quote lennon must be done roger how the co-founder of extinction rebellion in his new book common sense for the 21st century argues that our last hope lies in mass civil disobedience to disrupt and overthrow the ruling global elites and end our reliance on fossil fuels the activism protests lobbying titian's appeals to the united nations and the democratic party along with the work of countless n.g.o.s e r. used a failed they haven't been accompanied by

a 60 percent rise in global carbon dioxide emissions since 1900 how him who has long been a part of the environmental movement says of his past activism i was wasting my time joining me from wales is roger how i'm to talk about how we must organize and revolt to save ourselves along with other life forms from impending death so roger in the beginning of your book you argue i think correctly that the most important statement about the climate emergency is its troops which is obscured even by environmental movements and that's really your foundational point why well you know if you as you just told jiko press the situation is beyond her own dress is beyond description. and if anyone just listened to what you said you know maybe scratch taking

a moment or 2 dates. because we hear it's a lot of course but it's it is enormously emotional to us you realise that the human race is facing extinction not because of some conspiracy theory not because in some sense your logical you know our speculation but because of the role a 6 year physics that's what's coming down lied on the reason is because you're in court in carbon and are still doing it and it's still going up main us to fund managers whole sorts reality requires the most important reality which ever faced and ever will find something. i think one of the reasons why nothing's really been happening is because the energy. it's who causes and it's a cluster more generally it's just been using euphemisms for just being saying well

there's a little bit of a problem and we all remember that there were i mean everyone was in a space like 1020 years garrison all this climate change is coming along gets you know it's a little bit of a problem someone's going to be sorting out and then suddenly the last 2 or 3 years millions of people are just cannot see the fact that. it's not getting sorted out. it's not getting sorted out and it's not so kind of using our real experience of how nick you know i mean all parties this is all shades you know i'm this is all communities this is our nation it's all going to go back and i think that's the fundamental so emotional realized that's needed before we can actually move on to go really dramatic so a necessity is that when it's going to tight and we haven't xperience the international panic and that realisation then obviously risk there when the raul moves you know our policy challenge and thank you for the democrats you know are

you have been asking a little bit of the model friends so that's why this field of truth telling the truth as it is is central should a message here i guess so let's begin with the book you dismiss i think correctly these gradualist solutions these environmental movement to a certain level must understand the depths of the crisis but are in the business i think of selling hope rather than truth. and what you're really asking is people to walk away from the system itself and stand in utter defiance to it not too busy or waste their time with either reformist policies or reformist rhetoric yeah i mean i want tonight you know as an environmental movement since last 15 sorry you know i had the green movement so i've got an enormous amount of respect for the people that spent that nights trying to prevent this from happening

. so this isn't a personal thing it's not a pretty go attack or anything it's just the mosques are facing fox and the fact of the matter is carbon emissions are going up 60 percent right that's the bottom line situation so there's been a catastrophic failure i'm the only sort of moral intellects you coherent thanks to the states is to take a deep breath. i nextstep the depth of that failure and the horrendous consequences of that failure because as you rightly sec risk this is now locked it is not so much whether this is going to happen or not it's much more of how bad it is and whether we go through the lines was. so. this is opens up the space really it's a put the key question that's in the book which is ok so what's actually going so well you know because everyone now has these 2 lights now for sort of gradual changes and again this isn't a political point it's a geophysical point right we need to squash carbon emissions you know to 0 in

a matter of months and yes and we know that can be done right you know we did it in the 2nd world war we transform the economy so the problem is technical the problem is political and and the problem the pickle problem is that we're not seeing gauging in the tactics that way and we need to look historically to say. so let's run through some of the as you do in the book it's really a manual for resistance and i just before we begin want to say that you're very frank in the book that you're not in any way arguing that this is inevitably going to work what you're arguing i think correctly is that it's the only option we have left yet it is essential essential sorts of steps are made as we know arguing here about trying to find something that's definitely going to what we just have the option what we have is a number of different options i'm told the options which don't really rely upon

mosques resistance a useless that doesn't mean much resistance isn't going to it's going to work right it just means it's better than everything else by a long shot so the in other words this is a practical problem you know in a university setting and already have a right to feel critique but everyone can criticise must resistance you know there's loads of problems with it that's not the issue the issue is what else is on the title i means what the only other thing that's on the table concretely is continuing with this reform and sending emails doing not says you know sing and all these things of evidently firewood i've lost votes yes so we're left with this. this phenomenon of must resistance civil resistance so the real question then is what is there you know it and how can we maximize the probability that such he's going to do this job last year any question we have at this point in history so let's talk about what you call the tactical options you're quite specific about

what they are. let's just begin with mass mobilization but let's just run down that list what are the mechanisms that people have to employ in order to confront power elites and ultimately hopefully remove them from positions of power whether the starting point here is to fair what do people do when that desperate to correct that you will change and what that basically means is when there's an emergency and there's a fundamental aspects or an emergency which is a scaly stright floyds you know are your children a burden to tack on the top floor of your house you don't have a big insects will discuss you know exactly what's today there's only one option you run through the door of the stacks you grab hold of them and hurts us the allied rights it's not like lots of other options not like going down the back door ringing the police having a you know i shot rich people down the road there's only one thing so what you find

in his straight is when there's a really no agency when his message injustice when there's a massive crisis in a society then there's no need to read the one thing that happens i mean it's variations on the theme but the thing that happens is people go to the capital city or the gods the main cities or they come out in their cities they go to the street and they stay that day off the day blocking the city i'm protesting so don't confuse this with us with a one day march or a traditional civil disobedience shout sit down in the riots that you know 6 hours going to hype what the fundamental thing that people do and you know i say sure you know chris like. in the global south it's been done many times is people go to couples who sit in a state that i think if you look at the last 100 years it did not long and so critical change happens you know you like to provoke it by the response from the states and that starts rolling a dice you know maybe you get crushed or maybe there's

a but firing effect the more people come in straight the quintus is like a week or 2 weeks you start to see changes in deletes they start to crack and they start swimming towards making concessions again there's no guarantees about the substantial evidence that this happens and even if there isn't substantial evidence like what's the alternative you know there is this is what people do they don't like really into a ph d. thesis on it yeah this is what people instinctively day when when terrible things happening and in a society so that's what the book is basically reminding us it's not some new fangled theory or anything he's just saying let's do what everyone would do if they you know took seriously the fact that it's beings coming down the road and beyond around us when we come back we'll continue our conversation riz roger holland the author of commonsense for the 21st century.

all across the board trying to sit down in the polls and not just by a pointer to traditionally incumbency alone is enough to win reelection but this time around it is a race trumped me and let's be clear this is little to do with joe biden how did we get.

you cannot be both with the yeah you are. welcome back to on contact we continue our conversation with roger holland the co-founder of extinction rebellion and the author of common sense for the 21st century so roger before the break we were talking about tactics let's talk about the relationship to the law and breaking the law with us us i was saying what people do when there's a massive crisis and when they organize themselves use the guards up to the cities on the main cities on this day got day off to die. so fundamental structure.

is from our paying the law for it's a great. legitimate reasons for correcting the law at least in democratic societies all democratic tradition says there's a social contract between the government on the citizens between the people on the rulers we are not subject to bad laws in all shocking stops is we're only subject to the laws. to the extent that the government protects the people and an accessible justice when those things are broken when the government facilitates the mass destruction of the people then the people have the right and indeed to choose a to rebel against that government and that's a fundamental idea in western society you know peace and other traditions as well going back you know to all 300 yes so this is not light you know any moral saying go are a pretty tree wrong saying this is actually what we should be cheering this is

what's hot yes to our children to a community as i'm sure our nation's given the extremity of the criminality of the political class i mean just remind ourselves right the 30 years the political class has known exactly what is coming down the right we were told you $998.00 we were facing ecological extra ecological is a euphemism a euphemism for social chaos which is a euphemism for the millions of people being killed millions of people being right millions of people starving to death that's what we're looking at here so in that context there's every justifications for people to correct the law and that's that's the fundamental need is being forward in the book the 2 issues you raise in the book you say focus on government not you know media targets and always make sure that you would hear the nonviolence and you talk about those 2 tactics yes

well when you're dealing with a social crisis a structural crisis which goes to that debt of the politics and the culture of a country there's only one institution in sorted out and that's the states and again this is like a massive because for 30 years in sort of neo liberal sorts of ideas on the left and the right it's a bit like everything's ok there's one or 2 issues you go after a few bad guys you sort out on the system stays. fundamentally decide now that would be fine if the system was fundamentally like it wasn't going to cycles to destruction what we dealing with here is a complete paradigm shift which is the system itself he's the whole thing because everything's locked into gaza and also we don't have to type so in that context is justifiable and it's strategically required that we go to the states the states the only institution you know that has the monopoly of violence that has the legitimacy to transform the economy and the society that is demanded by that year says that so

that's the big maybe and you see the often you know historic late with critical movements united starts off with a particular issue you know like hunger or something i mean then move on to move it to to commit sure if you change the whole at least equal system because they realize that's necessary and the transformation is basically happening now you know read extinction about it as far as the number of minutes is concerned the fundamental point here is that number 5 it says the most effective way of changing a society in a progress of way is possible as you all know i had to change societies from violence on occasion a progressive outcome but we don't have the luxury of not following the social science social science is clear if you want so much demise the probability of changing fundamentally changing society rockaway in a progressive way then you need to engage in civil disobedience like gnome filings

the other thing about nonviolence is it's basically a numbers guy if you want to change your regime it's about how many people you get on the street and if you're engaged in nonviolence loads more people can engage you know as. barriers to entry as they cite in the literature in other words you know oh people young people disabled people people recall just by much money and background they are everyone can come to the straight i'm not the genius of civil resistant. it's basically about thousands of people breaking the law all at once and i have a coming you know our government sat resistance to change and i watched this in the revolutions in eastern europe crowds of half a 1000000 people invents a lot square gore and i was under plot in east berlin and of course what it does is create paralysis in the mechanisms of control i.e. the police or even the army who will no longer defend a discredited regime which is all the theorists of revolution geoffrey davies crane

britain others have pointed out is key let me ask you say you must present the authorities with what you call an impossible dilemma what you mean by that when when you are approaching the governments there's 2 options the government cannot negotiate with your own repression i'm going to identify the government when you engage in civil resistance is if you come to the repression option they risk was cool but firing what but firing meetings as people same powers in the people being arrested were being put into prison all being beaten up and that you need to change things you know it can lead to success and that's reestablish the beginning of the syndicate simmers is no it's not like press the button you're going to be successful what civil resistance enables you to his credit dots you know are no one can predict the outcome of that and the reason he frag the dice is that is a high probability say there's no sense knew it was a high probability that when people are arrested all mosques and all friends prison imams or like subjects abidance thousands more people come into the streets so the

die limits of the state his do week i can repression or do we submit to the demands of the movement's. and to a certain point of course the state is host to submit to the demands of the management and that's why it's so successful because they may go through they rip crush and you know it's gandhi said you know best that know you then they laugh at you then they fight you right and then you win so it always has to be despite state is not a pretty price that's you know no one's claiming it says it will you go fight it but nonviolent discipline is the most effective way of bringing the states to the negotiating table because of this mechanism let's talk about alliances which you write about in the book. and the danger of seeking alliances with those whose. you know illogical political viewpoints. replicate our own this is a in fact

a very dangerous move the fact of the not sure is is just about all the establishments organizations in society whether source will to reform paradigm you know under says because people find it very difficult to change you know as organized as you are no people paid in that job is what they are or it's done so what you find i think you revolution in situations is that people people literally come up from the straits in other words it happens outside the institutions and i have no particular problem with institutions in themselves right you know in situations of baikal and it's essential that there is institutionalization within these movements in order to maintain discipline but the fact of the not surveys that you think sickle system is change science class this is not. you know most of the n.p.r.'s audie and jerry's if you're honest with all south are still in this paradigm of doing campaigns and we have here and i talk to them inside you know are sent out to name

out the last people to do muscle resistance and they went there because they can't get their heads round you know something that literally no how. decades but the fact of the matter is this is the only thing that works so what's going to happen i think you can separate how today's institutions there's just you go groups and join rocket mobilization systems you know like recall where it's at x. or america and in india united states where you have teams of people going around the country mobilizing people. and then it gets nonviolence trainings they get into affinity groups most support groups they go to the cities and they sit down it's a very straightforward you know region east mechanisms but it has sufficient institutionalization you know it's not. on the other hand it's not like going through the institutions so it's somewhere in that sort of area that we have seen looking at having. the optimum situation as in my side you say that the message has

to come in what you call culturally neutral language what you mean by the way if you if you going seeing mobilize literally millions of people they're not low going to be from the same culture. and one of the big difficulties the political movements is is that they they're successful to a certain point and then they stop being successful and they stop being successful for the reason they're successful which is they appeal to a particular cultural group particular views you know ways is leaking linguistic rules. you know to argue systems when you get civil resistance what happens is people could decide that the teach your identity is i mean identity is a fighting and then necessary and crucial part of politics in a in a normal society when you have a crisis people have to go on what they they they do you could decide there is

identity in favor of what you might call a cool true neutral universalist and what i mean by god says we don't want to die you know the prospect of human extinction violates every human value every cultural group you know apart from psychopaths that site but it's everywhere and we know this happened like in the 2nd world war you know in the french resistance you had conservative catholics who you know are fighting on on a now where it's radical socialists you know do as people that traditionally hate each other came together and that's what needs to happen now and it's starting to happen of course because there's enormous frustration with radical politics i think of the nirman that it's not actually coming up with the goods and that's because it's courts and this identity politics. not just mean we're not having focus on social justice and. and persists on on the justice agenda as you

might say what it means there is that we cut off focused on the coalition building with many groups on the basis of this universal universe or agenda as you might cite and if we don't do that world that let me just. yes in the last 2 minutes roger just very quickly talk about some of the actions that you have carried out in london and you know the importance of what you call post. kind of revolutionary agenda that it that all of these movements have to come accompanied with a vision where they have to come with morgan official they have to come with a program of how to organize the political states after the uprising otherwise everyone can move into chaos and the big sort. the big thing here is citizens assemblies which is run to my selections of citizens who will decide how to transform the economy insulates that from corruption insulated from big money i'm

from the political class and that's something restating a small examples all over the place around the well it's so there isn't like you who are here well actually i'm sure that in is doing them well the other group starts morning with extensive belly and tearing a say right we're only going to s. what we want is orginally people to decide how the economy's going to get chang's i'm not gives the pitch equal it's just some say for a just transition and just to close i mean extinction rebellion has a long history of shutting down. numerous city centers including london thousands of around us and it is exactly this kind of disruption which has to be amplified it does but let's let's be clear chris right people aren't going into the street because they've read a fairy they going into a street because that much is hell that is an emotional process you know we don't

know whether be going to win or not that's not important anymore what's important is you do you take 2 children to community to your national and you going to the street whatever happens because there's no alternative and people can look up extinction but in exists all round the well now you can lock up when the. when a civil resistance is happening and you can join an outsider like there's no going back right. we're just going into a healthy at one way or another and it's a question you know you want to be on the right side of your conscience at the end of the tie decrease your question each a book. thanks that was roger holland the author of common sense for the 21st century and the co-founder of extinction thanks roger.

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breaking news on our to international an enormous explosion hits the lebanese capital beirut leaving at least $78.00 people dead and thousands more injured. the blast has caused massive damage across the city leveling buildings in the the poor district and leaving many of the city's residents without electricity. the exact cause of the disaster is not clear at this point although it is believed to be linked to a warehouse and storing explosive materials on social media a lot of lebanese are very. unfortunately there. and that countries including turkey and israel rushed to offer emergency humanitarian that.