thinks. we. ask. i'm afshin rattansi and you're watching another lockdown edition of going underground this time the penultimate episode of this season coming up in the show after 2750 tons of ammonium nitrate exploded in the port of beirut killing injuring and displacing thousands what caused lebanon's biggest ever explosion we speak to former lebanese member of parliament got some look

a word about an arguable israeli p.r. exercise in the wake of continued bombing and space violations and the book of those black lives led to protests continuing the fight against racial capitalism in the u.s. learn from their country's history of oppression and imperialism around the world we also act because the author of the wire and spike please define all this more coming up in today's lockdown edition of going on the gravel 1st let's go to beirut to former lebanese m.p. for the 10 in east beirut macomber all our condolences sonnet some days after the explosions at beirut poort where were you when the catastrophe struck and what were your 1st thoughts as to its course i was in my hometown by many which is about. 12 kilometers away from beirut and we shot we shot wait and my mother's house had broken glass and we thought that it was 'd an israeli flight that broken the sound. bad here all over town

it was so loud and so dangerous then the stories came flowing on television and we tried to call friends some went to see some went dead many were wounded houses were destroyed lives were shatter it is absolutely unfair said that it's a catastrophe this is anything short of a nuclear bomb that has exploded in the middle of beirut. one cannot describe what has happened courson i live throughout the war never since that isn't a 5 i've heard explosions are living through it but none as bad as what we've going through right now because of. the plagues of egypt at scummy one top of another and we feel that google hits rock bottom and we keep on going further and further it will horror from the column b. to a covert 19 to a cultural or political or financial banking

crisis and now this and it seems like we're down into hell we're commemorating the 75th anniversary of the u.s. nuclear attack on hiroshima or an initial eyewitness accounts from the explosions and it looked like hiroshima would have you make of the fact that president trump very soon afterwards said that his experts were telling him that it was a bomb that it was an attack he qualify that a day later by saying. the question is very much open whereas everyone else is saying this was just corruption something that i know that you've been fighting for many years in lebanon it's nothing to do it cannot be a an attack by some and verse 30 options are open for the investigators what is certain the basis is an absolute case of corrupt. criminal neglect 'd negligence is

what has been the basis for and if. it is unacceptable an unbelievable that so much so many tons of dangerous material could be stored for more than 6 years in the port of beirut without it being managed in one way or another now that is a crime on and by itself and lebanon now that is i think in the the immediate process somebody are dead we need to care for our wounded and search for our disappeared but i think that the next step is looking for the people responsible for this mess but whether or not this explosion was caused by an accidental fire or by criminal fire or $11.00 or another source makes us go into that 2nd phase which is now taking the country into a big political and legal basis fashion yet there is there is anything quire but if

sorry to interrupt there i mean one professor of a an organic chemistry u.c.l. said you need an ounce of explosive material to blow up a ton and this is 2700 tons so it's very much open as as president trump says but you're talking about this is stemming problem that i mean major nation media appear to be saying the same things about your country that they've heard about syria i don't know whether it's right. for intervention i mean the ministry of defense here said armed forces are now working with the lebanese government all your work and all your time spent fighting corruption over the years do you think that western governments or the some governments may see this terrible calamity as a chance to recoup some validity after their attempts to overthrow assad in syria and send completely different political and. consideration regime in the masses

then do the whether the goal is to scrap the lebanese political system is is is tenable in on by itself lebanon is unfortunately has a democratic assad with democratic institutions but reality is that we are all darkie that the systemic you are using religious divisions to maintain its control over the people that were turned into clients and this is semiconductor is is going through all of the political spectrum and would probably exclude a very small minority of leaders that have not been engaged into that only guard is funny earlier what is happening it's funny you're saying all that a president after i told his program told me exactly the same thing about lebanon i want to ask you about the big elephant in the room arguably because here we're

hearing that israel is offering aid trying its best to help lebanon and israel and always the implication try to help what did you make of the israeli politician more chief reglan claiming he felt cheerful looking at the scene of the explosion in beirut this joy was gifted to the israelis by god on the occasion of the jewish holiday of love no it's totally preposterous and certainly unacceptable one need not to forget that law. and it's at war with israel dan rather say that israel is a poor lebanon. for for as long as i can remember my being a child and to my adults who are now as i have gone through parliament they're now out of parliament it hasn't changed lebanon has all what israel says israel says it is protecting its safety and lebanon may see itself as a stage of war against israel but israel says it's protect think it's citizens by

what it does in lebanon well anyone that will follow or reality will with that it would appear that is the very the other way around lebanon has been the victim of more israeli attacks and it becomes many on the computer and the history book or any newspaper that is not biased with the you that israel has always 'd been the party that has attacked i've been an issue that's not that's not the way the media see it here the media see it here and many policymakers think tanks on board decisions that israel is the only democracy in the middle east you've just clearly said lebanon's democracy doesn't exist it is israel protecting the values of human humanity or justice and so on it's fighting for them even put a flag of lebanon in tel aviv we know all too well these arguments that israel is the only democracy in the world or in the beach in the middle east that is

certainly nonsense because any any person within israel itself will tell you that maybe israel is a democracy for the jews but for the arab citizens it's an occupying by the out of territories and it's been in violation of every single article new rights on the books but this is very good and very good at. the moment. the image of the dance of itself as being the victim either bill or. consider that the article. we are david fighting that delights in the region where the strongest army and the region are being the one of the strongest armies in the world and now what they are truly fight he is fighting the only the only military force that defeated them which is hezbollah and hezbollah is the elephant in the room so the issue is that conflict within the region between

iran saudi arabia the u.s. and russia and 1 really israel and hezbollah lebanon and lebanon's people who are paying the cost of the of this fight but not never forget the that the that israel and going back to any book in any magazine any real. and in your space for reporting accurately facts israel as always been on their back and from not on the defensive when trump said so quickly afterwards that his experts and presumably that includes some of the biggest intelligence agencies on earth that it was an attack that it was a bomb media here immediately started talking about hizbollah bombing its own city of trying to draw connections with the un tribe you are all on the hariri assassination immediately we started hearing reports in western media about russian ships from georgia containing ammonium nitrate what do we have to be wary off with

in the immediate aftermath of this catastrophe this ridiculous i mean not know one of the killed one's own people and been as many she says they were christians and so now that we can't buy by the blood. the only thing that lebanese are considering right now objectivist speaking is that it comes on the basis of our fault of the lebanese administration. kat that many phones are they just it is within the board more than 6 years but how this was that the neighborhood whether by and by an act of these raised or by an act of of the say the rather than god is something to be them and not by the investigation this is why most people say that they don't trust the look of his station or its own investigation because they have me want to whitewash their that are only

sponsibility of the administration. let me let it get any of that yes this is coming in the backdrop of that be iran saudi arabia israel through his bala. let me also tell you that as many lebanese is would like the army to be the only military. capable of wielding weapons in lebanon and lebanon should out its own very strong army irrespective of whether hezbollah is capable of do we work against the israelis or not but that doesn't mean that hezbollah in any anybody's mind with up on beirut just to consider that it was is you are just that and in reality nobody even has not claimed that israel has at all. they're looking for the brits with their love and all both israel and hezbollah both want to go into

a war and they have been evading all flee or direct conflict both the israelis and hezbollah for the past several months just calling their sums themselves names but never get to the act of waging a war against each other now in all of this interest to what happens the real victims are the people of lebanon and that's what makes me extremely extremely sad ok were all of this they were invited to hizbollah and the israeli ambassador to london on the show both hezbollah and israel deny any involvement in the explosions love to talk to you by the reconstruction of beirut because i'm a carer thank you after the break the star of the wire in spike lee's vietnam epic to death 5 blood clot features on the ongoing fight for racial justice from vietnam to some city support for all of the more coming up i do of going on to go.

join me every thursday on the alex almond show and obviously to get out of the world of politics sports business i'm show business i'll see them. welcome back you're watching a lockout edition of going on the go to pot when we heard from beirut and while there's some a foreign policy has been only a gender obviously black lives matter protests have been on the agenda too in a film of combines that racial capitalism issues and foreign policy issues out now spike lee has defied bloods joining me from london is one of the stars clark peters clock thanks so much and for coming on so we had about foreign policy we had

trumped the other day saying you didn't know john lewis still writes like born in the us for those who haven't seen it a few people maybe on earth who have seen it just tell me about defy blood some whites are relevant right now but. spike lee's latest film and. many a few issues actually. it's a vietnamese film or a film about vietnam. it's a from a black perspective which is something we never got during the during the during the war nor know the films that followed. it's kind of. the treasure of the sierra madre but also it's it's poses a lot of questions about. for hits issues about post-traumatic. shock syndrome. post any conflict that that men are involved in

and the neglect that happens it also looks at trump's america today it also looks at black lives matter. what is very interesting is that people thought that spike had put in the black lives matter moment in our film post shooting because of the recent rise in the protests around the world and i have to say that that was the 1st thing that we shot almost 18 months ago so. for me what this sort of shows is that the situation is the same and that you could have almost predicted that this was group if this would happen at some point in time and that this film would have been propitious for that moment in time but it's unclear on this well worth seeing it's a love story not only between myself and someone else but also between 5 black men you know who have had a shared experience of trauma and war and politics and life and death something

that you don't see and how they remain brothers and that bond and that's why it's called defile blood. you have a personal connection to vietnam i want to get on to that in a moment it's funny you mention treasure of sierra madre because so did all of a stone who was on the show on wednesday he was continually talking about the importance of not glamorizing a war when we see that it killed would you know this place tens of millions of people very conscious when you were doing this film that this film is not going to glorify us intervention in in vietnam middle and the rest of indochina. it was that was never it was never any any doubt that you know. the only resume so i had about it were my own person. feelings i did not go to vietnam. i protested against the war i would protest against any war you know and i wasn't

sure of how i would respond in an arena or in an area with this it happened and i didn't i have to say that i was tired like when i got it into a city this is don't go tramping back here and gentry when he got off that plane that he gives out to be his legacy to be more devastating than anything else was to go to the museum of the american war which is what it used to be called there and seeing the artillery that was left behind and the army wounds that were in this in tanks and airplanes and i couldn't help but think of of the the bodies that were in these vehicles. it was all oh all wrong you know as wrong then as it is today around the world you were arrested for protesting the vietnam war it didn't even good taste in my mouth because i wasn't there to necessarily protest i was there as

a 1st aid assistant and our brief was to follow the rules that were laid down by law enforcement and i only found that law enforcement had duped us into all being arrested at a crucial point in the in the in the demonstrations. but that is something that has followed me around even to even to today you know if i have never been arrested but that a arrest has followed me from that moment to today. and i just don't understand why particularly when we look at the outcome of that of that conflict why should i still be persecuted and have this this shadow over me i it's not only that arrest in a separate into separate issue why the f.b.i. talk here is that it's very different this plus that i mentioned i don't know between the characters in the spike lee film who are the kind of grunts i suppose on the ground who saw the killing of so many vietnamese people. you know they were

on the ground they were there at me love. is men. they still traumatized today and i have to say that i'm so traumatized a bit from just talking with them one who is still there in vietnam who came to talk to us about his experience and when he was fairly light with his. with his explanation of what it was like to be in there talk about the weather talk about the girls talked about you know all of this but when we asked him had he seen anyone be killed. his whole demeanor changed and he took about a minute and we could feel the atmosphere in the room change from what this man had been carrying since the late sixty's early seventy's and all he could do

is say yes some of my best friends died right alongside me in naam and that's all that i'm going to say about that and i have to say that the paul that it left over us. must be the same thing that this man has been carrying and that vietnam vets have been carrying since then who have been neglected and those as well from all the arenas since vietnam who have been neglected you know and i don't speak of just america. the men and women from around the world who are carrying this same thing whether they are from australia canada israel russia merica afghanistan war damages people on both sides and for them it does not and a question is proportionately as proportionate civilians were given he spent time in the united states and britain you know of course about veteran problems here in

britain actually from fighting in the in the us wars in afghanistan libya the list goes on in iraq of course you mean in britain joining the kobe had locked down what have you thought about when you saw the pictures coming from portland demonstrations arguably more violent i mean it's not can stay put more violent than many vietnam demonstrations for black lives matter in portland oregon 1st of all let me say i applaud their it's a nasty see that is still going on and that that as long as they don't you lose focus it'll be fine in the end what i knew you know donald trump is calling them and a casts and and people who are engaged in violence need to be curbed by federal forces yes yes i know this i know this to be true and i know it to be false here but. it's a sensitive area for b.b.c.

committed to be talking about with russian television concerning. anything and why there is a serious there's a serious issue because in some people me thinking right now i'm talking to lester freema from the wire and you know there are some especially in a time when the call to defund the police in the united states is going out who say that they you and your role may have glorified that the policeman the cope on the job well i feel like the system all around the world is going to be changed you know if you so the authority that police offices around the world believe me around the world i think exceeds the situations that they're it i find that the that they giving giving them allows that particular individual to vent whatever is happening in his life personally in a moment of criminality i think it's like this and i promise you around the world in every country that i have been in and even those that have not been bashing on

an island the united states disproportionately imprisoned people incarcerated people has capital punishment. you know. and the end of that proportion black men are leading are leading the way in that so i'm not being i'm not being kind to to just to to american it wouldn't say i'm saying that overall it's that particularly in america when you look at the stats of of men who have been incarcerated but also let me say this that when i had to go with the police around baltimore in order to study for that role it was not something i wanted to do and i went into that situation with it with with a particular bias you know that these are these are not my friends and yet when i got into the contest with them and when i was around the police stations and got to see them individually there were some who were really trying to do the right thing

and there are a whole lot more who could give it my language they just don't care and those are the ones who are giving the whole institution a bad name but you know when it comes to injustice you played form a violent terrorist on the list in the united states nelson mandela i'm going to ask you because you've been told him by his use of justice why how you knew how you knew. unlike help john lies a mentally bryan man queen has been on this show i'm going to say that you should boycott sun city when when nelson mandela is being presented in the media or in nato nations as a terrorist how do you know that a cultural boycott could ever be useful against an apartheid state. or just following my gut. just following my gut we did not go because of nelson

because no son was incarcerated. and i didn't realize either that since it wasn't really a part of south africa. it seemed to be in an independent state but the fact that. sometimes it's not about money sometimes you've got to take a look at the world and see how best you can use the tools to right the wrongs and if my group not going there was something that would have helped that moment you know to get to wedge underneath that boulder with some sort of lever to move it and that's fine with me to boycott the foods that were going on into the certain countries foods ever going on into south africa do that you know do what it takes to get the right thing done for all of us involved you know but to make

controversial ideas these days cultural boycotts of of course i'm going to ask you given here in london have in that that acted as the arts are in such a crisis because a coronavirus what you made of the idea of the government here thinking poetry too complicated to teach in schools under kovac by remote learning what do you think about poetry being the 1st to go in britain's curriculum important. when you take when you take the arts out of the elementary school systems you take away a platform of humanity and spirituality and love that you should be giving to a child at that point in time. i've seen this in america where the 1st things that have been cut were music. drama classes from that he went

to art classes. so what does that leave you with that leaves you with very dry subjects that have nothing to do the feet you're so to feed that part of you that that carries your humanity it is necessary to keep the arts in the schools music. if you can get dance in there painting all of those things oh what the human being needs gardening put gardening in there but when your desk take those when you take that away from a human being you taking away a piece of their soul you know undermining who that human being is who that human being as a chance to be absurd absolutely absurd i'm sorry that's how i feel about it. well more bars johnson's government saying it is trying its best to educate people

join this current virus crisis club because thank you we want you on the dot materials season 2 in september that's it for this well planned addition of going on the ground june and on wednesday for our season finale with pleasure vehicle maker and journalist john. i know no crowd. no shots. actually felt. no. point should your thirst for action.

protests break out across bela lugosi against a long time leader alexander lukashenko he looks set to win a 6th term in office but the opposition says the election was rigged also ahead. another night of chaos in beirut as public anger builds in the wake of tuesday's deadly explosion our correspondent is in the midst of the unrest. that. the police and the army are trying to clear out of this street right now we are in the middle of the city i guess everywhere.