lead. one on one with legal expert jeffrey toobin on this politics. dot com the politicking on larry king jeffrey toobin is an old and dear friend he's chief legal analyst for c.n.n.

staff writer at the new yorker and he's out with a new book called true crimes and misdemeanors the investigation of donald trump in which he argues that the media's reporting during the mo a probe may have actually helped the president let's find out why as jeffrey toobin joins me from new york i must say jeffrey this is your 8th book i've read all previous 7 i just started this one you have an uncanny ability to take legal problems and put it in layman's language i must salute you well and i salute you larry what a pleasure to be back on the air with you know you know i i really view the beginning of my television career as with you during o.j. at your studio and that all of our what i used to describe it is like a salon for o.j. people because you get everyone every every single person involved with the j. passed through that studio and i did some of my best reporting in the green room

there but your friendship and your support for my career was was indispensable at a time when i had no great care at all and now it's all right thank you for it or let's before we get that a book and by the way i started the book and this is the kind of book you cannot put down you have such an ability to write well all legal it's fun to have an attack can't wait to read it all before what do you make of the coen kaamelott horace appointment. well you know what i want to things i always get a kick out of is that you know we in the news media you know we make such a big deal out of these vice presidential selection but you know how many votes do they really change or i don't i don't think they may change any and you know the cliche is do no harm and i certainly think biden did himself no harm but it also is important to recognize the possibility that

a woman of color could be vice president of the united states and i think even though this was not a surprising choice the magnitude of that and the changes that's reflected in the country by that possibility is a very big deal and you know i'm out of the prediction because i don't know if they'll win but if they do win that would be a profound thing to have a woman in that position the 1st the one time a vice president did count was when kennedy name johnson and won texas if johnson on that ticket nixon would have been president that's out i mean that's certainly that what i've always heard i think those days are pretty much over though where you could pick a cat you know our presidential candidate who could deliver a state your politics are so nationalized now. that i you know you think about who the possibilities are that bind named i don't know that any of them could

have the river to day but you know we'll said. chief justice john roberts appointed by george w. bush early have this month vice president my pont mike pence declared i'm a disappointment to conservatives is it is he tough to read the chief justice well i think you know this was a very different chief justice roberts term that we saw before i mean i don't think anyone should be under the impression that john roberts has turned into some kind of liberal he is certainly no ruth bader ginsburg who went to which high school. madison i think they read out of them like the law many great americans write. the but so so john roberts has not turned it to some kind of liberal but it also true that this was a different john roberts this target no he voted to strike down the abortion law

louisiana he stright he voted to you know say that title 7 the anti discrimination law cover discrimination against gay people he said that the trumpet ministration you know had violated the rules when it tried to end the protections for dreamers and when it tried to put a citizenship question on the census that's different than the john roberts we saw in the previous 14 years he's been on the court and i think it reflects some real discomfort among mainstream republicans like john roberts with the direction of the trump presidency you know i don't think it's accurate to call roberts a never trump are but he is someone who 'd i think has been eliminated by how have how donald trump has conducted his presence. how far along in your writing this book did the coronavirus develop what was it was. very much towards the end i had to hand in my manuscript pretty much in april and as you

recall the the coronavirus hit in earnest in march and i you know i thought it was a revealing book at to to this story because a lot of the behavior that we saw from president trump the constant whining the you know real distortions of what's going on that we're if that that were in the mall or investigation and the impeachment investigation regarding ukraine they have continued with with with the tragedy of cove it so you know obviously this you know has been a nightmare for so many americans and people around the world but i think it's been a revealing one because the president's conduct has been of a piece with how he's conducted his entire presence the book is 2 crimes and

misdemeanors the story of the mahler investigation was the mole or investigation of failure. i think that's unduly harsh i think they accomplished a great deal the. the the they pursued their their mandate with a great sense of ethics i think they were very factual 'd in their reporting 'd they won some very important 'd convictions against prominent people whether it's michael flynn the national security advisor all man afore the transformer campaign chairman roger stone the president's friend those are big deal cases and the report also. describes the russian efforts to manipulate the american electorate in 2016 with incredible detail and persuasive ness i think there were 2 big problems with the muller investigation one was his failure to issue 'd

a grand jury subpoena to the president and get his testimony i think that was a real gap and on the question of obstruction of justice how the president interacted with his staff. whether it was james comey telling james komi to lay off michael flynn whether it was telling his white house counsel. began to fire. muller that was obstruction of justice and i think mahler really made an error when he didn't say that. outright and and just spoke clearly about what he should have spoken clearly and said the president committed no crimes he didn't and he opened the door for william barter really distort mahler's find. by the way we'll hear about a much is what he giuliani in the book. oh he is a he is

a protagonist in the book and giuliani is is i think if a particularly fascinating figure because there are really 2 sides to him in this story in the mahler investigation i think giuliani was actually a very effective lawyer he did 2 things he strung out the negotiations about the subpoena in such a way that he. managed to avoid having the president to to testify and that was very effective he also mobilized the conservatives against muller you know he turned this into a political fight instead of a legal matter but when it came to ukraine and. the giuliani's efforts to get ukraine involved in the new government of ukraine to try to you know sabotage joe biden's canvassing giuliani was

a disaster he almost singlehandedly got his client donald trump impeached which is something that i think no lawyer would want on his resume so the 2 sides of giuliani who is really a major figure in the book i think are kind of paradoxical an interest that could ensure that mahler. subpoenaed trump. yes i think he should have and that's another big theme in the book you know muller was appointed in may of 2070 he started telling trump's lawyers who at that time were led by john dowd and jay secular in the fall of 2017 i want to i want to interview the president which is something he should have done and they they got to the point where there was actually something scheduled in january of 2018 an interview at camp david but ultimately john dowd pulled the plug he pulled

the plug for the obvious reason that he knew as anyone knows that well that trump would have lied the way he always lied including under oath in this circumstance and at that point in january of 2018 muller could have just pulled the trigger gotten a subpoena and fought it out in the courts probably to have it resolved by the end of june which only would have been a year into his investigation what doubt and then giuliani did was they sort of stretched out these negotiations and that. allowed. the trump team to sort of it run out the clock and mo they knew that mahler didn't want to spend 5 years the way ken starr spent 5 years and that compelled moller to accept written questions and answers as opposed to. the the the real question an answer that would have been more appropriate if you're

investigating experience was this a tough book to write. this is the hardest book i've ever had to write. this was. a. moving target you know i agree to write this book in the in may of 2017 when miller was appointed but most didn't talk to anybody is that his staff didn't talk to anybody including me until they closed up shop that. presented a tremendous reporting challenge and then the ukraine story came out of nowhere i certainly didn't know that there would be a totally separate impeachment proceeding brought and i you know i had juggle all this. while while you know trying to trying to do the reporting and then the writing so it was a hard book to write but i'm very glad i got to tell the whole story you know it ends it ends with the president's acquittal in february 'd you know larry i mean

the president was acquitted in the senate in february it's only august now but doesn't it feel like about 100 years ago i mean you know that has. come of it has so taken over our lives in the news that it seems like you know forever ago but it really wasn't that law and i feel grateful that i got to tell the whole story if this was. another great book from jeffrey toobin will be back with some more moments the book is true crimes and misdemeanors don't go away as the u.s. economy was booming gaining numbers of people were made homeless. you can work 40 hours in a week and still not have enough to get housing everybody believes america still has the lead up to the reality of it we're not financially equality and the lack of affordable housing for a living minimum wage gave many people no choice. that's been a problem with the city knows turn limits and told me stay away almost. 2 sins of

the food that there is no answer because yes that requires resources the most vulnerable are abandoned on the streets to become the invisible cops. show seemed wrong wrong wrong just don't call. me to call yet to shape out just to become educated and in gains from it because the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground. carman spirits. fall. for most of the in the early 1970 s. helmut kempler a psychologist mixologist proposed to the west but in senate

a social experiment he wanted to let paedophiles and top down to care for neglected boys experiment with a. mobile. phone or on one door these newer girls don't tend to believe that sex with older men would help with the boy's socialization over 30 years many children were handed paedophiles to raise just mentioned regressions a little hard more of a bargain or go forward looking from him but we can look at all we were friends for she was all for gerber's are 103 over. the back jeffrey toobin the book true crimes and misdemeanors it's his a book and again as i said i just thought it's impossible to put down jeffrey have

we ever seen anything remotely like trump. you know larry i mean you've interviewed all these people including trump i know many times and i i just every day i remain amazed that donald trump as president of the united states i mean you know that it's not just the log breaking which i describe in the book but just the violation of norms of how we expect presidents to behave you know the constant insults that the you know the the fighting with the media for no reason it's like not you know to compare him to any other president is just impossible because he's not. it is just like and like no one else will ever see. but my goal cohen's book to come out before the election and to expect to have impact. you know i i do expect it to come out before the election

impact you know i think the idea that michael cone will you know i think the thing about about this whole election is how many undecided voters really do you think they are i don't think that trump trump is you know he has so dominated the news and his he so much out there the idea that that a lot of voters are going to pick up michael collins book and say you know i don't really think he's such a good guy it just seems inconceivable to me one of the thing with mail in voting being challenge to do you expect a lot of legal challenges to this election it ain't over on november 3rd you know this is a huge issue larry and i'm spending a lot of time on it now and in my reporting you know there was just a primary election in new york city on june 23rd in new york state one 'd of the

races a close primary race wasn't resolved for 6 weeks because it took so long 'd we count all the mail and. that gives you an idea and that's just a primary where the turnout is much lower than there is in a general election i think we are heading to a really scary scenario where. that the vote counting is not just going to be lengthy but highly controversial and i worry that a significant part of the population will not regard the result whatever it turns out to be is legitimate again way during the rest that a book and so great having you with us jeffrey continued good luck thanks pal it's great to see you. on tuesday joe biden announced his running mate senator kemal harris of california doll trump wasted no time in criticizing that choice joining me now is someone who knows kamel irish and has worked with her in the past she sat

friend santa cruz county supervisor he also or done the barack obama and john kerry's presidential campaigns thanks via time today's out ok you know you know our as well as anyone you have supporter over the years what does she bring to the ticket one of the big things she brings us history right now larry i mean you're talking about the 1st black woman ever selected the 1st woman of asian american descent the 1st woman to have attended a historically black college or university so i mean this is history in the making right now and even is out a lot of joe biden i mean she's young she's energetic she's got an amazing amount of talent in my experience with her she also brings a real incisiveness that i think is going to be really helpful from both the political side as well as the debate stage when she takes on vice president parents what was your relationship with her. when i was working at the santa cruz police

department i work with her professionally both when she was d.a. as well as attorney general on some cases some mutual cases when i was with barack obama's campaign traveled with her when she was a sarah get and she really really connected with people especially in pennsylvania which was a swing state should a lot of outreach to youth voters a lot of outreach to young lawyers working on voter protection and ensuring especially in african-american neighborhoods in pennsylvania the voters were protected and i helped her on her races at least reiji in the senate race but i just think that she brings a lot right now larry to this ticket i mean there's going to be a lot of excitement for her especially in some of these states that we must win in order to win the white house is that i remember when she would guest on my show on c.n.n. as well the tourney general and prosecutor in calif and san francisco she was tough on warren are agreed. yeah well she's tough in general man i got to tell you that you better know your stuff if you're going to brief comment harris because she is

by far if not the smartest one of the smartest people that i've ever worked with i mean she is and she brings a not just a law and order stuff but i think she also brings a perspective with their upbringing of understanding how the justice system disproportionately impacts minorities and i think that she said that throughout her entire tenure in the justice system that there's other ways to do things as well she was a progressive prosecutor and a progressive a.g. and i think balances out this ticket well where does she stand on defunding the police which is been thought of in many regards he could bring in this way she could be that way dismantling ice exactly where is her stance on that. yeah i mean you bring up an excellent point the defunding means different things to different people that are talking about it but both she and vice president biden have taken stands against this general sense of defunding police but both are in favor of the idea of reallocating resources toward early intervention programs and as somebody who worked in law enforcement i got to tell you there's no one for us men agency in america that thinks it's a good idea that law enforcement should be primary on public intoxication low level

drug crimes or behavioral health issues so they would welcome the opportunity to have that go elsewhere but you need investment in it 1st what happened to her and the democratic primary she was then forceful for a while and then gone what happened. yeah i actually think that this is a case of we need to let comedy kamel out because when people get to see who she really is and the campaign is wrong or out pretty well right now she's going to succeed presidential campaigns are hard larry as you know very very talented people don't make it up to the top there's a lot of external factors and a lot of issues you can't really figure out and seems like the democratic electorate on the whole wanted to go back to somebody that they knew and trusted in a way that vice president biden brings of the to the table but i think that it was i think her sense to get out when she did ended up being one of the wisest decisions on the entire campaign trail because that i think helped her be selected as vice president she's the next vice president who will gavin newsome appoint to

the senate. man i have no idea but i tell you what people are are the behind the scenes jockeying for that position right now larry and we live in a state unite both in california here where there's a remarkable amount of people that are talented enough to do it both at a statewide level a couple that's you know leaders there are karen bass for example you know there's a lot of people but i tell you what i magine if she becomes vice president i imagine kamel harris at least have a conversation with the governor to help try and figure out who the best person is represent the state and he can appoint himself danny. yeah he could appoint himself if he wanted to get away from being a governor in the middle of a pandemic right now but i think that you know he wanted to be governor and that is the role that he sought for an extended period of time i think as you well know i think from the point he was mayor he wanted to be governor and so i think that he'll probably keep his current position what are the conventions going to be like then not by conventions what tell me what trump said he made to his from the

gettysburg yeah what a strange thing that is i mean they're going to be they're going to be virtual and i think that in some respects that that's the most responsible thing to do it took a long time for the president to realize that i mean he was promising a full convention up until recently mean a basically because nobody was going in the local actors were telling him not to do it but i think a virtual conventions are the safest and you know a lot of it is just making sure that you can tell every day people stories hear from some of the party leaders i don't know that you have to do that physically larry like we've done traditionally you're not both been to a lot of conventions the pomp and circumstance is nice but i think this year is a unique year and i think it'll be ok that they both sides happen to be on the digit on the virtual side you think people are going to sit at home and watch different speakers speak off 1520 like it was a live convention i don't buy that nonono they sit at home and watch us right now larry i think that they are no you know i mean to watch to watch comes me go race me go b.s. because see i'm sitting at home if i go to the invention that's different. well but

the viewership of even in person conventions at home is pretty high as you remember both at c.n.n. and other times i mean tens of millions of people end up watching it over the course of the convention and i think that this year the stakes are so high as you saw with turnout in some of the primaries the high ratings of the networks regarding political coverage tells me that people are going to be at home watching this and by the way since a lot of people are still sheltering in place in a lot of locations in the country i think that they're going to want to have that kind of interaction with the government that way. or some possibility of an october surprise the discovery a vaccine an economic recovery things that would work in trump's favor do you worry about that because that would both things you would like oh yeah no i mean i think that taking the politics out of it those are things that i would prefer to happen for the country but i think that there will be a trump october surprise or thing there's 100 percent likelihood of that i think

that he is the master of manipulation when it comes to media narrative and i think that you will make sure that there's a way to try and steal the thunder but at the end of the day larry i mean if you think about whether you're better off now than you were 4 years ago in a very basic sense there's nothing you could do in october that would fundamentally change that i do believe that things are going to totally tighten i don't think the current polls are accurate i think it's still going to be a close race all the way to the end you are a about voter suppression oh yeah i mean that i mean have you seen more overt voter suppression i mean you're talking about an entire republican party this trying to manipulate the postal service of a people came or turned ballots they're doing everything they can on voter i.d. laws i mean it you think it's accidental they're only doing this in certain swing states i mean this is a clear effort of voter suppression and i know the biden campaigns working very hard i got to say haven't come on the tickets helpful in this case for prosecute that case but also just making sure that you can get episodic voters the turnout is going to be hard that's why i think that polling in actual turnout when you

actually get close to the race are 2 different things and the senate go to the democrats i do think so i mean i think that right now a lot of the close races are trending the democratic way overall though it's the senate is definitely set up to be advantage republican advantage rural so it's a much harder lift i think of the dems when it be either win it on a $5050.00 with the presidency and get that tie breaking vote or maybe it's a $5149.00 and we're going to have some honest conversations about filibusters and everything else in order to get policy done and problems is what happens to the g.o.p. . where they have a reckoning i mean it's a there's a lot of good members of the republican party don't know what happened out of the world to trump i mean we basically are debating facts right now we're debating basic democracy people are afraid of them within the republican party but i think mitch mcconnell saying the 2 telling vulnerable senators that they can run away from the president is very telling about how he views it and what a post-election g.o.p.

may look like zag thanks is always wonderful seen you always great to see you larry . zagg friend we thank him for his time today we thank him for joining us on this edition of politicking and thank you for joining us remember you can join the conversation on my facebook page or tweet me at kings things don't forget to use the politicking hash tag and that's all for this edition of politicking. felix thanks but it's put to rest and not just today but the style of speech that i'm. easy. for she marched. on. would have. been able to.

be pushed to monsignor thomas much more some. i know team no crowd. no shots. actually felt speaking. let me stress no 1st. point show your thirst for action.

join me every thursday on the alex simon show and i'll be speaking to guest of the world of politics sports business i'm show business i'll see you then. still boils people take to the streets across the country with flowers and balloons becoming increasingly regular part of the protest will take you through the country's continuing post election. palestine denounces the u.s. brokered peace deal between israel and the united arab emirates that's been branded historic under which israel will hold its west bank this. is the 1st ever african-american running mate in the u.s. presidential election history but commodity.