in washington we cross. is a senior fellow at the independent institute ok i'm going to give you 1st in washington i mean if you look at the mainstream media and this is what russia gate seems to wind down the banks have come out for china and some of the groups some really very very harsh editorials are being written there in the washington post new york times and they can a.t.o. press and even in the british press here is this a new cold war and if it is how is it different when the up with the one that was against the soviet union go ahead in washington. well i think it's a it's a bit of a stroke and say it's a cold war yet i mean i think this is actually nearing frankly end but you know foreign countries sort of been historically have realized and though i presidential election years especially. candidates you know attack foreign countries. and try to stir things up because especially if they're in trouble in other ways

and i think our current president having difficulty with his response to the virus and also the economy the economic ramifications of course which other countries are also experiencing but in our country. you know of course especially his the real action really depends on the economy going well since he's a minority president that has get a majority the 1st time so i think you're seeing a lot of the election here and that things may die down you know after the election season either kill him lose the election and somebody else will command by or will be reelected and the aim to get some sort of agreement with chinese perhaps it's hard to say what will happen but certainly this there is rising tensions and he's also attacking the w.h.o. as a child as have the trying to use. too much influence and when it's an international

organization it's certainly there's a lot of questions that could be asked about them are you a challenge response but. legitimate questions but i think that was probably not the time to do it and now we saw it. yesterday where they are the countries china russia. the european countries sided against the u.s. and its tomato into the organizations and that the. us is trying to attack that as well to attack china but its offer electoral purposes really you know when he did in it seems to me that a quite a bit of this is it is deflecting away from globalization because what we have seen for the last 35 years is elites in the west the embracing globalization in china is certain to be has benefited from it enormously how many tens hundreds of millions have been people of new people been pulled out of poverty i mean it's one of the most extraordinary stories and history here but you know they talked about all the

great things of globalization and if you were against that then you were somehow an isolationist or something like that and and now they may you see they change the narrative being against china it's all china's well i mean as an american i know how fragile the apparent in medical system is because it's driven by profits it's not driven by taking care of people so that's one thing as i hear but i mean to kind of reply to what i can said there do you see this is basically being its origins being in domestic politics because it is it's the be the big tree always pretty strong i mean i haven't seen a lot of things like something like this for a very long time and we have to keep in mind we went through 3 and a half years would be useless russia gate in one. cell a lot of that kind of show that we're seeing is i agree that it is new with regards to china has never been this strong but. from. what i know of american politics

americans love having a bad guy. and so we had the u.s.s.r. in the eighty's we had japan we had the axis of evil in the middle east in iraq and afghanistan china is a perfect example of this right now because if we're going around the idea of globalization the whole point of globalization right now is that globalization under american edition was another deal that was system that was established and led american led institutions multilateral institutions i.m.f. world bank b.t.o. w.h.o. if we're talking about the problem we have right now is the globalization we're experiencing is that it's not an american only dominated american men and anymore it's not that the chinese economy has done so it so basti well over the last few decades the fact that the chinese were imperative in their part whereas the imperative in the part of their participation after the 2000 equal financial crisis and as a means of bailing out not just individual economies but the euro the euro area

as well raises a lot of concerns as to this this i known factor and what it means for where we are going and so when it comes to a lot of the things that the chinese are doing because it is not under u.s. direction or influence and you also have the fact that a lot of traditional american allies like the big 3 in the year in the euro the euro zone or the british are not following the lead we as americans this creates a lot of problems and a lot of concerns within the american electorate as well as in particular the american elite you know it's really interesting and really you were very gentle and diplomatic in your language of what i've been i'll say but i think that yeah american hegemony is being threatened and that's what it's really all up and it's really quite interesting you know i'm good at it. from you because i wrote i read your article that was the only. american concert. i mean you have on the one hand

it ministration this telling its. treaty allies you know you have to start paying for your own defense you know if you know particularly in the asia pacific area where you're american i watched the al ice should cough up more money and but then at the same time. there seems to be. this huge pivot to go to to asia here i mean it is very contradictory and winning is absolutely right a lot of american allies are not all going in step and so this is great even more frustration for political elites in the united states go ahead in washington. yeah i think that's true basically as at just the president we have other senators that are saying well we need more submarines we need more jet fighters in the fight in the east asia center and so they're taking advantage of the covert crisis to demonize china and of course. you know there was already pointed out that the u.s. does like to have enemies and i would fully agree with that statement i think the

iranians don't realize that because there's an article today the new york times that saying you know your odds are pretty astute they're trying to you know call things down in the tensions between the u.s. and iran because they know it is an election year and i think historically you know social science research indicates that countries do this because specially with the united states because they know things get heated up in the election but certainly what we're saying is that republicans are trying to take advantage in this particular case of a crisis we had obama in a domestic crisis with the great recession his chief of staff said never a lot of crisis go to waste and what they did back then was to take advantage of the economic crisis to get. fairly unrelated thing health care you know obamacare bush did it with 911 going after iraq this time it's well

we have this code 19 and it started in china so therefore the chinese a response of all because our we blew our response to it and certainly there the chinese are not scot free here but certainly what's happening is they're exaggerating the demonisation china to build up militarily spend a lot of money and it is partly i would say the military industrial complex and the chinese hawks are you know taking advantage of the crisis oh yeah well you know me you know the military industrial complex loves welfare we all know that ok but you know when he made. you know. it would it's correct to do to point out obama's response to the 2008. hour talk about more submarines more jets more aircraft i mean had to bury gary difference here and the thing is here is that one and i am a realist i don't i don't understand why china tonight to be able to pursue its

own defined defense interests this is what the american elites never do they always define what everyone's interests are and they expect them to follow it and countries like russia china iran say no we have a different definition of our sovereignty and we go to the route that you like just mentioned use the word sovereignty a lot and this is this misalignment and because it's about the military and we'll talk about a couple even the 2nd half of the program it's supremely important and we have to be very careful of errors. absolutely i think your point saying in terms of the americans feel that they traditionally have been in a position to be able to dictate or at least. lead our convince governments which way that they should be focusing their military targets in their military prowess is quite significant in a key part and that is because for china and actually for most governments the military is more than just power the military is also very symbolic has a lot has

a lot of deterrence value and. since the 1990 s. is not just americans but americans have led the way since the 1990 s. the whole idea of chinese containment which is really expanding now. has it has been their idea of china ideologically speaking has been a challenge because it continues to be a holdover from the you know the era of the red scare in iraq and and so it becomes a matter of how can you how can you allow the world. most populous country and now the world's 2nd largest economy to grow an income birds and ultimately focus on its own decision to have a military like almost all governments in the world do unless your elected government like it can where you have historically you're in in a position where you can't ok so for the chinese dot idea that you want to build your own military is a position of you know what historically we have this history of imperial power is

coming in dictating to us what we can and cannot do we want to have a military we'll have a military we've told our citizens the whole aim is to have a secure and. strong nation that is. good i think we have to throw in we have to understand you mentioned but i think we need to stress it is that china is experiencing a form of western containment directed by the united states i mean you have a military base the surrounding the country here i mean it's the fact that it's called the south china sea for a reason because it's next to china ok as well if he's trying to do the chinese it is far as i know don't have a leak in the caribbean or off you know california and i think that this is something that a lot of western audiences and voters they don't understand that ok because if you have a huge the largest and the most powerful military power in the history of the world

right off your coat telling you where you can go where you can go that does seem threatening and i think that's legitimate i want to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after about 2 a break we'll continue our discussion of the new cold war construct state. or local. oh my. goodness kalash the moment to ask him should i ask for the last 70 and seeing and i'm interested for the dutch pro who should commission. bridge

to shift shoot on disk in the. command among the. legion mom. in a new car so sit on the opening much the same new mama is just there are no. one else chose seemed wrong but all quotes just don't hold. any old belief yet to shape out disdain become educated and in gains from it equals betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart. just to look for common ground.

welcome back to cross town where all things are considered i'm getting a little reminder we're discussing the cold war against china. let's go back to london when he went to finish up one before we went to the break all right and so i think the whole point of the chinese containment that that i mentioned earlier and which you also talked about is also was reiterated by obama's 2008 where we then saw the expansion of military bases not just linked to the immediate region around china but also into guam the philippines as well as

australia so there is a specific message that the americans are sending to the chinese about military the military industry and the need to protect themselves so it is not actually not surprising that the chinese are reacting in a way they are ok and let's go back to washington i mean given everything we've said in the program here and it's focus a little bit more on the military lead probably want to do it and i will switch gears and talk about the economy so we have these we have just saudi arabia cyber rattling going on here but you have an enormous amount of codependency here and this move to decouple which you know i mean when it comes to antibiotics and ventilators i think that's right ok yeah i mean i think any large country should be prepared to protect their population because people tend to forget endemic sperm and go it's part of our human history ok it's just that in this case we try to. corral all the healthy at the expense of the of the people that are ill usually was

the other way around you quarantined ill people now it's the general population 1 so i think it's very. reasonable for every country to be prepared in a medical sense but it goes far more than that i mean because over the last 30 years they say china still john giannone didn't steal one job it was the american corporate elites that sent their jobs over there and now we have this quandary can the u.s. and china even decouple they've wanted to. well i think it's very difficult and i'm not saying that that should happen i mean i think wiki. when stuff probably not going to happen as we have both parties need united states fairly protectionist now the republicans used to be a little bit more free trade up in the past but you know people are very i think the key 1000 a recession really caused people to to that the cliff and now people are

concerned about their jobs going overseas and of course it's easy just doing what we're talking about earlier. saying that evil is a foreign government. and when it was a free market position many of those jobs are some of them are going from china to . some of the poor countries as china develops you know we have a proud noble lifecycle theory where you know china and the united states should probably let some of those jobs go in produce more highly technological things and you know that's the nature in and bring out that would bring out the developing world as well so i'm not sure that globalization is a bad thing now the problem is some people lose their jobs and some people dump some people profit enormously from it and i think that's where the political problem comes in all these countries not just the u.s. but other countries as well particularly in the u.s.

and i think. and even the democratic candidate hillary. last time she kind of flipped she was a free trader before and she fled to the protectionist position but i think it was the previous recession now of course we're having an even bigger recession so i don't and anticipate that who is asia is going to be a more popular probably the last popular but of course globalization has made brought many countries up the good in china and it's not just an advantage in china it damages the united states as well now are some of these countries going to have to make sure take some measures to to take the rough edges up that maybe but of course steve that has cost so but added to your point i think it's going to get worse and we do know we are in or china is china and that's a good thing and here is the reason for that. graham allison wrote

a book where he catalogued the 16 they got instances sensed in the 1500 rising power and dominic our abilities draco went into contact conflict and only for those cases was peace and she there was a hot war and in the other 12 cases were just bad however the last 2 cases the soviet union versus us they hadn't yet nuclear weapons and then and with the british and the us which was a successful transition from the rising to the to the dominant power you had a deep trade relationship and you had a big ocean well with china we have all 3 of those they have nuclear weapons we have nuclear weapons we have a big interconnected economically and we have an even bigger so you know if you're a realist there is some hope that this might be worked out of course the u.s. behavior as it has been pointed out is not in that direction but as the u.s. china rises and the u.s.

hopefully will realize that. you know there's room to let china have. sphere in clusters run don't russia have a sphere of employes and i think when the us does that maybe we'll have you know the big powers which completes the region of the world of course we have been influenced and and one technique of the empire us empire is we said oh well spheres of influence and so yes they could of course that's still how the world works underneath all of that all underneath all the you know b.s. of that and that's just a way of saying well we'll determine what your severe mental and we don't think it should be that much in europe with russia in east asia and china but it is the real us will take over then we would have we would say well you know this this is work in the past when we had these constraints against one power you know when a hot war we have it we do i think we there are several factors that you could be

optimistic that maybe one have a hot one because if we have a hot war it better stay limited or it's going to be a really nasty just like it was in the cold war you know we needed the printing of what was just said this and some absolutely correct because it really at the end of all the fundamentals are there for a coming to terms it seriously but there's one little wrinkle this stopping all of it it's called american exceptionalism they can't in american exceptionalism can not deem china as a equal here it's not part of the of the ideological construct ok that is the biggest problem a lot of people are having because really gemini it is unlimited it's everything that's what we used to work ok it's all right and you can't have this limited gemini it doesn't work that way and also i would point out and i'm going to go out of a limb here is also we're seeing for the 1st time in 500 years

a non your in european or european extension power come. as to being the head trauma and this is something that the western world does can't comprehend ok i mean it's a form of orientalism when it comes from the west ok and i think there's a fear factor there i mean looking at some of the editorials that i read this morning there certainly is a civilizational element to it go ahead. so i would agree with you the fact that americans cannot agree that time is equal power. and authority who appear in the tea party behind that is because if you see it as equal it means is equal in clout in dominance in leadership in influence and in prowess as well as in threats ok there is also is a fundamental thing that there's a gap in terms of the american knowledge is a fact that they don't actually know what china wants in order for you to have a hot war china has to want to go to war china doesn't want to go to war. ok for china if you want to with we're focusing on the issues of globalization or the cost

that will come if we stop globalization is the key things that will happen is that you will have decline of influence and dominance of multilateral institutions that were led in established by the by the western powers and well you will then see is that the chinese similar to what people are talking about with regard to w.h.o. is you're saying well you either w.-h. will fall in line with us or you fall in line with china which one do you want right in china is willing to say listen we're willing to stay with us globalized globalization light and say let's work together and find some way china said it's willing to be open to investigation we just don't want to investigate investigation is led by the americans which i can see there's a certain legitimacy to this is a clear ideological partisan element to that i think the key point behind it is that when we're talking about whether or not there's a cold war between china and the u.s. the key i think what we need to recognize is that yes there is it's just not the same or in the same way that we would see it happening with the u.s.s.r.

the u.s.s.r. was about ideology and it was a hard power for him not be a lesson right from the u.s. from the from the chinese perspective when it comes to we when we saw in the 1980 s. the kind of trade war that was happening between the americans and the japanese as they saw the japanese rise as a potential hedge amaan in the international system the trade war basically was a way to eliminate that what we see an initially happening after the trade war between a waitress came to power is the movement towards a tech war. and what we saw immediately after that was went to saying listen always a t. you cannot engage with us what did they do they said that's ok you know why because we already have our operating system yeah i mean knows it's coming as not stupid so it's a matter of trying to can anticipate because america quite similar to what i was saying is it has a playbook and has never really deviated from it but we don't know what china is going to do because china's never been in this position before so it's preparing

for all eventually so we'll talk about the idea of a cold war it is there it just is not in the traditional way that we would expect when it came to the u.s.s.r. i mean you know one of the things during it we sense very looking at the comparison to the the what we call the cold war to the 2nd world war one of the things that happened it was a good thing is that you had western policymakers and politicians they had a habit of trying to put themselves in the other guy's shoes that seems that process seems to have disappeared is you know asking you know what do they want and how can we how can we come to terms with them keeping our values and our interests at the forefront but still being able to listen to the other our interlocutor that doesn't happen right now at least maybe it's because of the the anxiety that this pandemic and the economic turndown has created but you know that doesn't seem to be a lot of cooler heads in trying to understand what's going on here yeah that there are there are differences big differences and there is competition but as you

pointed out graham allison talked about how you can avoid that last 30 seconds go to you. yeah i would say that it's true i think in the ninety's with the unocal a moment as it was as it was call the u.s. got a little too you know high on the horse there are sort of speak in its in its version of the world we were now dominant in want to tell people what to do before there was always a constraint on the soviet union being there and then it went away and. this occurred during the british in the 800 s. when the british and the us the british were originally very arrogant and gradually they came to see that these factors take all and i think that harm hoping that will happen to us leadership too and have things like aren't they when other countries are going out of there would run out of money when it makes my guess in london and in washington i want to make our viewers they're watching us here are you see an extra remember.

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i think were part of the 1st from. rival rallies are held in dollars as the fallout from the country's election continues while crowds call for the president's resignation many are voicing alarm over the iraq. situation and our country is very serious so we have come out here to show our support for the president i stand here for valerie's our president. the leaders of france and germany reach out to president putin to discuss the situation in belarus russia has called on all countries to avoid interfering in the crisis. u.s. senate intelligence committee releases the conclusion to its report accusing blood we know of personally ordering a hack on the.