coming up in today's going underground the 1st is pharmaceutical johnson a race to be the 1st to peyton de coronavirus vaccine subsidized by the taxpayers of superpowers back in the so-called cold war the united states was paying big drug companies for a very different reason to manufacture l.s.d. for the cia mind control project known as m.k. ultra the new book boys are in chief by former new york times foreign correspondent stephen kinzer sheds light on m.k. ultra and the man behind it sidney gottlieb he joins me now from cape cod in massachusetts stephen welcome to going underground before we even get to this amazing book your reaction to this 40000000000 dollar pentagon money appearing to go into the next coronavirus relief package apparently your country needs you have 35 bees of a genea class attack submarine whatever that is and some kind of directed energy weaponry to target china there seems to be no aspect of public policy including how care in the united states doesn't become somehow the property are ours and this

is true that are being built for so called response to a coronavirus we suddenly find all these military programs the horrors that playbook talked about you know they were justified. this concept that everybody seemed to share in the united states that the world the freedom loving people everywhere made an imminent threat there was so dangerous how horrific in its scope that we must temporarily one of our of our priorities is out of our ethical and moral principle but we'll certainly get back to those very similar is right over the crisis never seem to end although communism is over as of now there's always errors and there's china on the search for enemies in the united. west just tell me you sidney gottlieb is given the directors of the cia maybe your current secretary of state pump a little gina. i suppose now running the cia may not even heard of sydney going to

leave before this book emma when the guy was running one of the most important secret project in the history of the united states and identity was totally unknown or to the outside world even inside the i.a.e.a. there are only a vague idea of what he was doing actually this guy had a license to kill issued by the us government i concluded after doing all the research that went into this book that he not only was the poisoner in chief as i have but he really was the most powerful under a lot of american of the 20. now you make a lot of allegations against him i'm going to say although we can't defame the dead . he said in a court case he couldn't remember things couldn't remember any of kinds of things you talk about in the book back in 83 died in 1909. over here the statue of churchill is being attacked by black lives matter protest has just take

us back to when churchill one to bio weapons so during the 2nd world war they knew what it for sure job you can convince by intelligence reports which were later proven job involves the nazi government was planning to arm some of it the missiles or raiding london with biological warfare weapons there or churchill not having the facilities to radiate out their weapons that frankly rubbed off the air for him tens of thousands of the interact. he would hold in readiness to counterattack against germany so russia's not agreed to do that and he ordered the us army to begin a secret project to create the anthrax and they were being built in

a factory in indiana when the war ended so it was sure urgent request to roosevelt based on what turned out to be false information put the united states and really the western world on the path for biological weapons and i'm going to get to the cia's recruitment of nazis nazi doctors in a 2nd but again the context here we're talking about is. korea of britain the united states maybe have killed a 5th of korea's population in the korean war you say in the book that the cia thought. that released us soldier is this supposed to communism their apparent support could only be explained by mind altering drugs so what i was working through is of this project m.k. ultra the cia mind control project at the center of my book one of the questions they kept emerging in my mind was what led reese people in the early cia to

believe that mind control was real why did they spend 10 years destroying so many lies in the effort to try to find a way to destroy human minds and number and place it there. i think there are 2 reasons one of them has to do with cultural conditioning that of all the books in the movie sherlock holmes story the end around post story about mind control and note that i think subconsciously a lot of these people that generation the generation that ran the early cia were affected by the good and began to lose the order between fiction and reality but then there were a couple of specific episode. that felt sort of as these not at all ready for allies so i was the one you mention in which. american prisoners of war returning from korea after the end of the war or in many cases to assign statements

criticising aspects of life in the and i ate some has confessed to going to many more primes in korea a few have said they had dropped by a logical bob the north koreans of the united states is always never happened how could they have said these things the only explanation that the cia come up with was somehow their minds and then. by a hostile communist forces and therefore you see we're not speaking for the valves somebody was the root and therefore since we now have. evidence later proved to be un true that the communists have a mind control capacity or are developing it is absolutely urgent. that the fence and project become involved in the search or mind control and it was simply got these and i said before you can find a way to insert

a new mind into somebody's brain you 1st have to find a way to destroy the mind that is in there he spent 10 years experimenting on most important addictive trying to find ways roy's a human mind the human spirit the human body if you mention the cultural context i mean these ivy league white middle class people there's a class dimension to it but even they out on earth did they agreed to hiring nazis people implicated people who were involved in experimentation at the death camps i mean specially sydney gottlieb himself what his grandparents were all the cause celeb was really this is a fascinating part of this story so during at the very end of the 2nd world war. head of our u.s. secret service the o.s.f. . wrote a memo to president roosevelt saying that the nazi regime was collapsing it would

be important for the u.s. government to try to hire nazi spy and bring them into working for the u.s. government rather rejected this idea that we're not going to hire any of those. but after a few months roosevelt with that through that was in power and that process went ahead after the very end mediately after the 2nd world war american intelligence officials were arresting many people in germany and they had files if you had a scientific background they would put a paper on your file so therefore operation paperclip became the name of the project by which nazis were brought to the united states and this was a process that involves something called shape because the records of these people had to be placed all references to membership in the net after the gestapo had to be. there would be little entries made into one of

a family grammar. so the 1st group that came were by then the 2nd group was the rocket scientist that was very blunt then came the 30 bio warfare people the people who wanted to know how to control human smuggling thought to themselves who's out there that has information that we don't have who's been experimenting people and that plays out exactly what portions of our kind of voice that work on the human mind of the human by well if they're not the cousins ration doctors and the bio warfare experts who work for the 3rd reich the part about godly is particularly intriguing as you say gottlieb was jewish his parents emigrated from central europe at the beginning of the 20th century if they had not emigrated and you know sidney might well of wild up being the victim of one of those horrific so called medical experiment in

a nazi concentration camp but in the event that didn't happen he grew up in the united states any didn't seem to have any problem working shoulder to shoulder with the nazi doctors who carried out those very experiments maybe the senators. worked on that committee on torture about guantanamo about abu ghraib maybe they should think differently this was because ironically i suppose predictable that they then these nazi doctors this stuff engage in a pulling torture injecting l.s.d. into african-americans and the tricity drugs you talk about mass poisonings in san francisco you're absolutely right that project went completely off the rails largely due to gottlieb himself so does the san francisco bay it was just one example you're right it involves our respect experiments on human subjects and the numbers of people die but godly also had all sorts of other interests one of them

was the making 53 in the godly persuasions of the i.a.e.a. to buy the entire world supply of allen and use that for 2 purposes one was these horrific lee course an experiment into trying to destroy human minds but the other were for less course of experiments including this bizarre program that he set up in san francisco he wanted to see if there was a connection between drugs like l.s.d. and other one and that so we got a guy in san francisco to work for a man to hire a ring of prostitute. job was to go out to go guys bring them back to earth specially equipped apartment they were very l.s.d. and their reactions would be monitored by that drug agent who had no scientific background and was just sitting on a portable toilet drinking more than you out of

a pitcher this was called operation midnight a while back and so this national security whorehouse was part of america's effort to defend itself against communism in the 850 this is how crazy m.k. ultra when it seemed kids are all stop you there more about m.k. ultra in the poisoner in chief after this break plus on thin ice despite blacklegs massive protests over alleged murders by u.s. security forces on the next to feel the force of u.s. one force meant a 1000000 overseas students we tell you how you might escape the clutches of the immigration and customs enforcement agency has plans for mass deportations begin elizabeth coming up in part 2 of going under.

the leftist senseo lost in november election and they're trying to cause trouble they're stirring the pot and they're trying to get a little bit of a civil war going but they can blame trump for that and one way to do that is by saying it's ok to live to small businesses and that is that's a. really common meant to stir social unrest looting and violence and that's what the left is up to now. welcome back i'm still here with stephen kinzer discussing the cia's so called mind control program m.k. ultra tell me about the unintended consequences the cultural consequences and does

the sixty's counter-culture well the irony of it has to do with the experiments that gottlieb wanted to carry out ordinary people so in addition to these uses of l.s.d. is there on prisoners or on people who are unaware not we've also wanted to see how an ordinary person would react to a let me in a clinical setting knowing exactly what was happening so almost overnight a whole new market for l.s.d. research grew up people who'd come in and volunteer one of them with cam key the author of what went on to become the great counterculture classic one flew over the cuckoo's nest actually he took it in a hospital and loved it so much that he got a job in the hospital in the veterans administration not the middle of our california that's what gave them the material purpose fantastic but alan ginsburg the radical poet was another of the very 1st volunteers to use the method of

understood that the l.s.d. and they were using came from the new gottlieb and the i clearly also then go on to do quote john lennon who said thank the cia if not to gottlieb i understand the assassination program was prolific tell me about the press the better known the castro fidel castro raul castro che guevara's assassination attempt by going to labor and also patrice lumumba so the title of my book poisoner in chief refer to the us doesn't you're talking about that in the campaign by united in the late. that in the foreign leader then he got. was the head of the chemical branch of the cia there was a logical that when the cia needed poison or any purpose including killing a foreign leader he would be the person they were turned in it was sydney got the. poison that was supposed to have been used to poison the chinese leader joe and why

that plot was thwarted later on fidel castro became the target and it was godly who created all those elaborate devices you read about not only the elbe pill that the phrase i learned while reading the file i wish dealt ill else that for lethal or help it was a little kill you he made those for castro but he also made things like a poison fountain and with an ultra fine so you wouldn't feel it went into your leg he made. poison wetsuits so that if castro put another and we need a way to get him the obviously none of the plots were successful then when the cia decided at the order of president eisenhower to assassinate patrice lumumba of the prime minister of the congo not only did godly make the boy carried from washington to the congo which i think makes him the only person in history at its

best ever of carry government may poison to another country intended for the use in the fascinating the leader of that country you know we don't know if you believe these assassinations go on in your book you quote richard helms as saying the principal driving force was attorney general robert kennedy and you say there's an irony that actually a cia acid in paris was receiving a poison pen on the same day as as malcolm x. said the chickens came home to roost and j.f.k. roberts brother was killed whatever you believe about the kennedy assassination all of the or even in some ways i've acted. if it was oswald alone it was because he was a very we know it go back to us making a doing that was castro it was revenge that was the end. it was because they didn't like him to giving up on the baby. yet it was because if you missed it with the i am right out rogue elements of the national hero it was because they were angry

we're going to be over here about that shield the 2nd has never left the us government actually died when i. went to work the persian thank you but you know it's a moment of thinking we're still angry don't castro but we don't know how many hundreds of millions of lives may be affected by all these foreign policy decisions just finally what's happened to camp dietrich which reaches so much in this book is associated with plum island because of course there is a conspiracy in fact law some of us representative from the republicans because of a smith said lyme disease could have been created by camp dietrich it's a disease 300000 americans a diagnosis annually off what is kind of the trick now well 48 you're going to now call was the center for development of u.s. biological weapons and biological agents in general it's now used for example purpose as a storage facility for. anti dote still possible with global disease.

it was there that cindy gottlieb maintained a secret well in which cia scientists concocted their voice carried out their other work. now it's not clear what kind of research is done on behind some of the closed doors at fort dix but it's certain to say that. all we don't know how deep the u.s. government is going into research for biological warfare some of which is going to bite us or whatever the u.s. government is doing in this area it's happening behind closed door on that base in maryland same base that was the center m.k. ultra the place where the forces were abrogated. where there is the most. research anywhere in the world waiting weapons. period or

defend against record weaponization. of vital and very obscure role in the art harbor of bio warfare and the investigation and biological tools if it be used a little. simkins i thank you. well away from the cia now to another arguably in from his u.s. government agency ice or immigration and customs enforcement has grown a virus in black lives matter protests continue to rage it is threatening to deport maybe every overseas student from the usa but a leading immigration lawyer and former international student is fighting back fiona mcentee joins me now via skype from chicago thanks unified coming on more than a 1000000 international students given the u.s. student visas nastia what on earth is being threatened against them. thanks for having the apps and i were kind of messed up fight by by there was actually earlier

on this week at my i changed course with regard. for foreign students that were made kind of made hands and essentially they said that if foreign students were gulen to be studying online and morris had an online only course that's for the false master and they would not be able to do that while maintaining their their student visa status here in the u.s. now i know harvard and mit have already said they're going to sue the trumpet ministration i mean this could really mean the mass deportation of say all u.k. students from the united states. well i mean that was certainly what i had put in there they're interactive that they issued a essentially last foreign students that we're going to be attending online only courses with a few options and i don't think any of the options are grace and the 1st is leave the last 2nd to try to scramble to transfer schools and a few weeks' notice assuming they can find a course in

a school that is not online only and force the schools to to go on to kind of change from online only to in person or face deportation so they're the options that they were left with iraq's into law it is to say that harvard and mighty have already say northwestern university in chicago and recently just joined in support of harvard and mit position as well and i know you tweeted out a loophole a possible loophole i don't know whether you're being humorous about it i'll get to that in a 2nd 1st of all do you think this seriously is a recognition by those in power in the u.s. that students they consume is but they don't contribute anything to united states society when they're there i mean it's certainly a slap in the face to the foreign students who come over and i just don't understand it from an economic point of view all the economic data goes to show how much foreign students contributes just like even living here you know

$41000000000.00 as they've put into the u.s. economy in the 2829000 academic year at just by being here their presence alone created over 450000 jobs here in the you asked so in the middle of a pontiac when the economy is suffering on so many ways i don't know why it makes sense to try to expand a huge population of emmer and thought are clearly contributing so much now let's get to this loophole that could save students watching this program around the world they could be something like a one credit course that could save them from deep. you know their ability to return to the u.s. to resume studies well i know that the colleges and universities are looking into the office and there was provision for am type model where it's not online only potentially codes foreign students and to stay but i think if that administration trump administration ice were trying to force schools to open i think their plan

hasn't really worked because instead of doing that they've actually seen the administration so i would advise foreign students to terri and communicate with your university and sit and watch this space to see what happens with this lawsuit but technically if the university has gone to online because of coronavirus and they have just one tiny little course maybe half an hour long that is face to face that that would mean that they would not be deported by ice well they're trying to figure out those details so there was provision for it you know that the directive spoke about online only so i think they're trying to figure out exactly what that means and kind of what are the promises of costs and so still being investigated by the colleges and the universities but i know that i had rather. i think you know almost every professor from some of these big universities had

volunteered to coleman to teach at n.p.r.'s lynn class because they know important the foreign students are both economically but also these are these are people's lives and i used to be a foreign student myself so advocating for a current foreign student something that i'm really passionate about you can just tell that the professors you know they care a lot about these students are from all over the world and it's just not right the position that ice is taken given that the grown a virus is you know absolutely not under control in this country and aside from the nearly half a 1000000 jobs lost perhaps 41000000000 down to the u.s. economy hundreds of thousands. maybe affected in terms of a student accommodation in the u.s. yeah actually that was one of the things. i had done an entry on almost immediately multiple landlords got in touch with me directly to say that they were rantings that they were releasing their places to foreign students and that if they were deported as you know they're asking me what's going to happen to their their apartment so i actually recommended that they consider writing

a letter to the added or their local newspaper just from their point of view because you know it's not just it's bad enough that it's directly on the foreign students but there's a huge ripple effect from this on some of that includes the m. packs that it would have on landlords that are really saying to foreign students at the time of this interview joe biden has an issued anything from delaware about what he'll do if he wins the white house in november obama and biden deported many more than trump more than any other president in history or all the presidents put together obama was known as the deporter in chief maybe more than 2 and a half 1000000 i mean any sign that actually could be worse than trump on these overseas students issues. no i don't think that there's any there's absolutely no way the biden is going to you know implement these types of policies. and i think that i've actually looks at that with online but i've read through. vice president biden's plan for immigration he's made

a commitment to immigration reform to put it on the agenda in the 1st $100.00 days his plan is very comprehensive addresses that the humanitarian aspects of immigration like the asylum seekers you know in addition to looking so reform in the business immigration and so addressing you know just the fact that the system as a dated and doesn't necessarily match up with the needs so there is no doubt in my mind there's no way we would see something like this from for biden you know magazine thank you. thank you for having me that's ever one of your favorite shows of the last season will be back for you see is going to come in the 5th until the driver to show you if you don't miss an interview and join the other guy but following up with a facebook instagram and sound about face a. says

he stressed to. this or that the british as a at the bill a bunch of you know the old boss to. stop the show so your street dentist addition to she's a c.e.o. which quite all she'll. go to which she never happened and now look what you've seen in the response you're going to let me ask for sure i. want to talk to you sort of through my it's your bonus for c.b.s. to give. it to mr ellsworth suborder i'm still with them to spirit for this interview but you both deduced that the it's the studio actually the person the person who goes to revoke or should stop them spinning. expressed she. chose seemed wrong when old roles just don't hold. any new world that he's

yet to stamp out disdain becomes agitated and in games from an equals betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart when she's to look for common ground. during the vietnam war u.s. forces. it was a secret war. and for years the american people did not know. how much it is officially the. country per capita. millions of unexploded bombs still in danger lives in this small agricultural country. even today kids in laos full victims of bombs dropped decades ago is the u.s.

making amends for their tragedy and. help to the people need in the 2 little. boys and with a substance from the group he's the victim for crime someone tried to shut him up. to international the german government declares russian opposition figure a volley was poisoned with an overthrow of nerve agent but the kremlin says it has yet to receive the details of berlin finding. a french satirical magazine charlie reprint controversial cartoons reigniting debate that is as the terror trial gets underway for 14 suspected associates 5 years after the attack in paris. thousands of americans say they are desperate for an alternative to the 2 main rather.