me kevin oh in the rest of the morning on judy team here have a great monday and thanks for watching this program. seems wrong why don't we all just all. get to shape out just they become educated and engagement equals betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground.

hello and welcome to cross town where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle we are witnessing the rise of a new secular religion and it's called the focus at the moment in that short history its goal is to end racism why well everything is now considered racist the believers in this called demand obedience insult criticism but we're really never told how racism is to be eradicated or how it helps serve the interests of working people of all colors.

to discuss this and more i'm joined by my guest john to bar in bristol she is the deputy leader of the workers' party of britain as well as off the road the drive to war against russia and china her forthcoming book is identity politics and class and in budapest we have george samuel he is author of bombs for peace nato's humanitarian war on you it was right across our girls in the fact that music can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it ok let's go to bristol jody what do you do you make of this new secular religion because that it's kind of quasi christian you know a little bit of composers a little bit a bit eventually mentalists style. and you know it has i would this ritual walls it has its hume's it has its clergy it has. it's script sure. and it's making everybody miserable and it has nothing to do with fighting racism go ahead well i think it's the last point that i am really interested in it's do

we want to fight racism and of course the answer for most of us is yes but to fight racism you have to understand where does racism come from what's the cause of racism these symbols of an exploiting society do of course represent the fact that it is an exploitative society what that reminds us is this society is not our society it's run it is made up of run by and fought a tiny exploiting class and of course they heroes are the ones who are celebrated in the culture that they call ours which is really this and of course for the mass of the workers and exploited around the world these people are not heroes ok but it's a reminder of a material reality that we live in a world of exploiters and exploited and that is what is the cause of racism racism comes from the need to divide workers against one another it comes from the need of

the imperialists in particular to justify their walls and their colonial conquests on the basis that these people can't take care of business they're not grow not they're not i mean the you know the the the way that it was and colonial exploits have been justified have subtly developed over the years but essentially come back to the same saying we have this white man's burden to take care of everybody else and it is it's not really about white and black is it you don't have to be white to be racist you don't have to be black to be a victim of racism the europeans were being conducted programs against the jews before they ever saw a black person the british were conducting pogroms against the irish before they ever had a friend african caribbean and indians you know to be racist against. they thought they had that even citizens to be racist against which has been our most recent and of course you know the arabs in between because we're waging war over the middle

east so for me this is somewhat of a diversion i'm happy to see the back of the statues but if it just is a question of looking at statues and taking them away whilst doing nothing about the roots this is limit is it ok what does it change exert george exactly after that action is needed well that's how i see it all ok that i offered to address social inequities absolutely ok but you know george there's this whole movement it's a career in the present there is no any past is adulterated it's dirty it's toxic it must be wiped away i mean how can we address inequality inequities without knowing the structural process they created in the 1st place and that's all in history ok and as far as you know seeing the bad status that's a totally different question and i think that we should talk about that i think we should talk about what statutes mean but this is this is the taliban and it's

a ship of western culture if you don't like it you don't understand it you just roy go ahead joe. yes absolutely and of course the taking down all statues is a process that's only just begun it goes it isn't going to stop with robert's unique. because you know next up obviously the founding fathers of washington and jefferson. wrote us woodrow wilson retrograde views on blacks f.d.r. japanese americans and the with martin in winston churchill's pearl in a box they can i do not go exactly so you know winston churchill who was a been an icon icon and that much you know europe and united states for us since his death more than 50 years ago is now a reviled figure because he's an impure so everything else that he has done that you know his wartime leader of that gets forgotten is just an imperatives but one

we know that this is a fraud is that if you really want to oppose imperialism if you really want to oppose. powerful rich powerful countries exciting their will on weak countries which are none european nonwhite than oppose what the united states the united kingdom and france the imperial powers are doing to syria right now i mean there are there conflicting there was brutal horrific sanctions and causing the misery that oppose what they did in libya destroyed a perfectly well dublin state for god knows what reason and it's and now they've had this is a country in which they've reintroduced slate so that there's a country where you actually after own going slave trade not the transatlantic slave trade 400 years ago but not only going slave trade in libya again not silence about that or the pressure that's of the sanctions against them venezuela again

latin american country and you know the the you know nonwhite people say nothing about that so. well then here's the purpose of refighting the battles from 150 it's like i mean i think i know the answer to let's go back to bristol john d. i know the answer that it in use that you alluded to it is that no one in the elites here do not want to talk about class that's like kryptonite to these people they don't want to talk it's all because of racism it's not because of class and that way that is actually a very soothing and comforting thing because you know having this purity tests that you plight of people get on your knee take me and all these other things you don't you know address the structural problems of why there is racism in why there is and why there is growing desperation i mean look the phrase was attributed to george floyd but i think it is applied to it least half the united states i can't repeat

it it's because of the structural inequalities the been built in and we have all these woke people that makes them build privileged even though they don't have they don't know anything about history they don't understand exploitation they're even know that they're being exploited. i mean 100 percent or so many points there and what you said i could pick up on that symbol that resonated with people so much about george floyd's death it wasn't just that it was another policeman the way that it was filmed so we could see the cold blooded nature of his killer he was so calm the need to the neck and the words of the dying man i can't read you you black for that to resonate with you that mismated across the world because that is the experience of the oppressed and exploited masses every match they can't breathe they have that need in the neck from imperialism they hate elissa and then and their children and you can't raise and that really resonates and that's why it is as you say about close and the system and not about any black and white

and racism at least pilots in america although. of course those things. are many of the inequalities but really why has expanded now in such a way it's not only the power of this particular merger it's also the fact that it's come on top of as you say a situation where the economic crash which is the biggest accomplishment presented produced combined with the health crises are being disproportionately as always built by the poorest and of course the poorest in the imperius countries are more likely to be black if you're black you're more likely to be poor so that desperation is coming from people losing their jobs have no health care suffering from the crisis the most suffering most from the health epidemic and being in the middle of all of this and of course it's very safe for all to see this uprising and s.k. and what they don't want is us to get together and say this is this system is

a problem and we must get rid of it so what they were very happy to do is jump on a narrative that encouraged sections of the working class to despise one another and spend their time in the end fighting one another and you know being made absolute pulls out of on both sides of this argument i mean we saw in london this week you know working class white guys doing let literally hitler salute churchill steps you can't make it up you know in their attempt to defend what they see as their culture it's not their culture on the other hand you've got you know they're being pitted against you know angry working class black an asian people who are feeling like they've had enough of the inequalities in the system both sides of bat all suffering from the inequalities inequities of this system and its inability to provide basic security in really simple things like jobs housing health care

education you know it's the rule has to benefit from all of this does. and this this this putting us down into silence of what color are you and pression hierarchy you know the better you are not the more oppressed you are the more kind of just you are tamala g. right you know you know george one of the things i find really quite sickening is that you have the amazons and him silicon valley and you know the one on their website black lives matter and you know what that is pure genuflection and it's at no cost of them whatsoever it doesn't affect their bottom line it's it's an amazing cultural cover for them because if amazon actually tears about black lives then why does the treat its workers like certs ok no jeff bezos gets. a free card out free card out of jail because he can say you know he takes a knee but it doesn't affect his bottom line is better heck he's become what you've

been more obviously rich during this crisis go ahead you know this is exactly and so what it was is that this one black clad math movement has been co-opted by these are. all these other. silicon valley to whom this is you know your symbolism i mean if these those really cared about black lives it could well for one thing raise the wages of all the people who work for him it doesn't he got permits. union organizing at his workplace it doesn't mean there's no same goes for jamie diamond same goes for all of the all of these. silicon valley billionaires that you can organize so all of those things that will actually affect their bottom line they don't know and what do they do that they actually. use this black lives true or show their

sapir iorio to their work laws because it's their workforce that his race is not there you know. with the c.e.o.'s with billionaires we don't we're not racist but you you know miserable a blight says you know who they barely make you make your rent payment you are right and i will show you how terribly retrograde you are and so this is the end of the game played so there's really nothing radical about it because we know what's right you know what a radical movement is a radical movement is well look what you had with the bolsheviks you have. a masters of support they will direct appeal to the last directly appealing to the narrow they're not going to go to a break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion wolk of them are.

going to be used as a workshop of the more fleecing of the police the more the mazy sure there. isn't a need for. both of you. to use the book with the stuff just doesn't have those with you was a feasible. to me yeah of course we. welcome

back to crossfire where all things are considered i'm purely about trying to discussing. some. ok let me go back to george herbert right before the break you were making a point what i think is really interesting in all this is that among conservatives and people that are more interested in class like our guest in bristol you know i hear there refrain and it really makes me worry say you know i'm not really interested in this but the problem is is that what ism is interested in you and they're coming for you know george yes absolutely because what happens. workplaces at workplaces of jamie diamond and the workplaces of these laws is that white workers and black workers set a gauge. how do. you know that if you're white and always be held to

be racist and to be. had all kinds of news on things so you're going to have this constant tussle between the point where it was a work suppose a braces and rather than over the fact that both. almost no pay of work hours palling work conditions and all of the money being siphoned all through the people at the top i mean it's no accident that these arses this lab give us a wealth you know what her i'm getting early in. the day they argue about these statues and i've seen a lot of historical artifacts so out of people that a statue with abolition abolitionists ok and they don't even know who it is oh but it's a statue of apparently about white guy who listens how insane it is just to let me

go back you know one of the things i find really terrifying in this is it 1st of all this whole locus of movement is detached itself from the rule of what i do. how does that sell of merit i would say it did have to do so from. being reasonable you can't argue with these people like you know argue with aplomb earth are ok and the problem is as they see is this the visions that are artificially created to set us against each other is it we're is the limit if you take the knee or you lay on your stomach and you put your hands behind your back and they want more and more and more and when what this does is it creates an enormous amount of intimidation a chilling and then again it gets away from the very core basic ideas that we're trying to get across on this program. i mean if we want to understand where this work culture as you describe it identity politics where it's come from it's really something which has jumped into

a space that was left by retreating class consciousness working class movement you know we my lifetime has been a lifetime of seeing that movement the working class in retreat you know the socialist countries were destroyed to my mind it's all temporary but you know history goes up and down like in these last 40 years we've seen a retreat of working class and into the space of these the working class demands equality for women. end of racism end of colonialism end of imperialism they will it will work in close to months and they still are but what's happened it's with the retreats other class coaches leadership for the working class you've had the chasm is asian all of these struggles and they've been transformed they've been intercepted so you don't know longer recognise that women's liberation is a class question that anti racism is a class question that anti imperialism is about class it's about the system of capitalism as well as imperialism you put them into separate silos and we've had

this kind of bush was a fixation if you like old working class to months they've become things that you. i study at university women's studies and the enemy is men and black studies and the enemy is white people you know and it's what i just feel safe narrative for imperatives and at least to me the step she says well what was once what is being pushed so hard by media and then very much in support of the debate of a statue because we can all discuss history and imperious crimes become something as joe said something to the pots i think the reason is in existence now and it's crimes i'll list and it isn't you know look at those the playstation wars in congo that been fought in the last 16 years how many millions have died so we can play our playstation while we're not on the streets saying congolese lives matter well or home without play stations ignoring it you know. salute.

it and does it say about our rulers in this crisis to provide health care that everybody should have everyone in the street i mean you can but then you know debts it but that's there's such a vacuum of leadership i mean the we our leaders are now over the worst in my lifetime but no i mean it's absolutely i mean because they're all bought off ok they're there they serve a purpose here you know george one of the things i find very. hard me is that if you really look at what's happened with the economy how it how it you know i could be exploded into the culture now into our politics here i mean this is a real boom for the studies people because every you know to fight racism live lives matter well because i'm you need an equity counselor you need a diversity counselor you need it your 1st to be chief in this apartment and you know what all those worthless agrees that have been burned up don't last 30 years there is upward mobility there but it would they do is you taking this paradigm and

they're just reinforcing all the problems we have discussed here if it feels so. great doesn't it if you're out if you're the one that needs pointing it and you know if you're if you're a priest or a priestess in this church you're elevated ok i mean this reminds me of you know kids that were popeye you know sit down and get on your knees you know you know and it's terrifying and you know what people are submitting to this is extraordinary moment go ahead george yes yes you know exactly so what you're now creating and i don't obviously didn't create it for some time is a vast administrative klotz rally parasitical. that will be in i get another boot on the neck of the world because they will be there at every workplace to point fingers at employees as well who create a barely able to make a living that you are

a terrible retrograde person you have terrible views of women who have terrible views on terrible abuse of homosexuals don't you need to be reeducated we however you know we have you know degrees you know we're doing very nicely thank you very much so it'll be a good guest you know the burden on people who are already of course that that's why the jamie diamond and the rest are roma so happy with this great you know you know i work as will be even more miserable because they will constantly be up in the human resources office told what terrible people they are and how they must be educated so to get out of. this period and then then it is to their it vanish this managerial professional class but have all these worthless degrees and high esteem about themselves racism will never end because that's their job ok to you know to every it was like in the soviet union to you ever perfect socialism you know i mean

it's already perfect we're going to ever perfect that a bit more they have no way nish it to see this kind of a cultural terrorism. they come to an end and if they do go this find another one will be sexism or something like. this though they exactly your job your buddies are there. there is. yes i think george is really put his finger on something extremely important about all of this discourse and the constant substitution of the policing of language and symbols that language in particular when you policing language to the extent that they identity politics against police language what you're doing is shutting people out of the conversation what you're doing is telling working class people you better not look you know mouth as you might. you know i come from a what if not to put it my dad is indian my mum is english write something that makes backgrounds and through my lifetime the way people describe that has changed and these days it changes so fast i don't know what i'm supposed to say. i mean i

had a bit mixed race doesn't make sense to me because i think we're all human race all right but to explain to somebody else you know they get offended or my the hardware used the wrong word well well well well said i have to do it and you know it's nothing and we're being encouraged into smaller and smaller boxes you can only talk to somebody who has the exact same experience as you go to find you know can just be. stupid girl who was born in nonsense and i can get a budget and it was her and other people you know they could understand my experience so we'll be you know we can maybe be out but really you won't get my script and i never get yours and when it's posing for the ruling class because we can never ever unite we're all in our little tiny little boxes getting fragmenting ever more and you know everybody else is the enemy everything you know you come a connect professional no navel gaze at me in my experience my playing you know fundamentally none of this changes the system as you say it encourages more

privileged educated workers to despise the ones who don't have their you know. education there right well. short of it was keeps the poor lakas out of politics and discussion altogether until they just get great and i had enough of being despised they can feel that it's not since you know but they don't have the leadership to explain to them how and why it's nonsense and fundamentally we're all just pitted against each other wasting our time and our energy while the wanting to us is pushing us all down and down and down you know it's really interesting here there was those some of wildcat strikes george with amazon and there was a pretty remember the gentleman's name he was trying to organize the workers and you happen to be african-american and i know you and i saw i know you saw some interviews with him and amazon said that he was let go because he broke social distancing and he's not very articulate which i thought was so amazing because i

watched the interviews with him he was very articulate to me it was because he was articulate that's what they were afraid of go ahead yes yes exactly because of course what amazon jamie diamond and the rest of them are afraid of is seeing a serious lead that he is organizing among the workers here is left out is the key to we're going to keep going like that and that's what you had you know which were the serious socialist revolution where the serious source of this revolution was russia and what did they do they organize among the working class and they precisely said to not let. you know the capitalist bit you against one another that's exactly what they did little they're going to bit you against one another don't tell you that he's the enemy is the enemy and that and that which you know that's where you organize it but now the left as embraced identity politics all with the blessing of the richest men in the world there's the restraint in the lead

and there is no serious or radical movement so we have these empty symbolism of. taking down statues which as you know we've said earlier does nothing to improve anyone's life that is that he's gone now to get back to work and minimum wage so this this then is the result of a complete sort of de frank all serious left ok well brought out of time here this was a fascinating discussion we're going to keep doing it with both of you ok because i really think it's important for your research that's all the time we have i want to take my guess and good it goes then in bristol and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here r.p.c. next time remember. problem drugs don't always come from unscrupulous dealers but from pharmacies to in

every state in the united states we see me very sharp increase in the number of people seeking treatment for addiction to prescription opioids and invited america under the banner of medicine persisted with the pain but instead of trying to wean him off though she just goes after dose after dose after dose and really became his drug dealer so who's to blame patients doctors manufacturers all the governments. seem wrong. just don't call. me. yet to stamp out disdain. and engagement because the trail. when something find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground.

in the headlines this monday morning moscow and berlin trade accusations over the condition of russian opposition activist alexei the volley as russia questions why the german side has yet to reveal key information amid poisoning claims. protests against police brutality in the u.s. showed no signs of easing coming up we'll look at how the unrest is helping bring huge profits the 2 american tourists. to the program dozens of social media accounts from a washington lobbying firm are suspended for attempting to manipulate elections in venezuela bolivia and mexico. 22 french schools are all right.