prominent russian opposition activist alexei no valley is out of an induced coma but the alleged nerve agent poisoning us in a way for the accusations directed at the kremlin. as a protest against police brutality of the u.s. show no sign of easing the un dressed as lead to a significant surgeon gun sales. constituting a songes extradition hearing gets underway in london the wiki leaks founder is wanted in the u.s. to face the espionage charges. my colleague kevin nolan will be in the studio for the next hour as news update in the meantime let's cross talk here on our international one of the u.k. and ireland when he gave ink is next.

hello and welcome to crossfire all things are considered i'm peter lavelle we are witnessing the rise of a new secular religion and it's called the focus at the moment in that short history its goal in racism why well everything is now considered racist the believers in this cold demand obedience and so criticism were really never told how racism is to be eradicated or how it helps serve the interests of working people of all.

to discuss this and more i'm joined by my guest john de bar in bristol she is the deputy leader of the workers' party of britain as well as author of the drive to war against russia and china her forthcoming book is identity politics and class and in budapest we have george samuel he is author of bombs for peace nato's humanitarian war on yugoslavia right across our girls in effect that means you can jump an incoming want and i always appreciate it ok let's go to bristol jody what do you do you make of this new secular religion because that it's kind of quasi christian you know a little bit kampala is there's a little bit a bit eventually mentalists style. and you know it has i would this ritual walls it has its humans it has its clergy it has its script sure. and it's making everybody miserable and it has nothing to do with fighting racism go ahead. well i think it's the last point that i am really interested in it's do

we want to fight racism and of course the answer to most of us is yes but to fight racism you have to understand where does racism come from what's the cause of racism these symbols of an exploiting society do of course represent the fact that it is an exploitative society what that reminds us is this society is not our society it's run it is made up of run by and fought a tiny exploiting class and of course they heroes are the ones who are celebrated in the culture that they call ours which is really their heads and of course for the mass of the workers and exploited around the world these people are not heroes ok but it's a reminder of a material reality that we live in a world of exploiters and exploited and that is what is the cause of racism racism comes from the need to divide workers against one another it comes from the need of

the imperialists in particular to justify their walls and their colonial conquests on the basis that these people can't take care of business they're not growing or not they're not i mean you know the the the way that it was and colonial exploits have been justified have subtly developed over the years but essentially come back to the same saying we have this white man's burden to take care of everybody else and it is it's not really about white and black is it you don't have to be white to be racist you don't have to be black to be a victim of racism the europeans were being conducting pogroms against the jews before they ever saw a black person the british were conducting programs against the irish before they ever had a friend african caribbean and indians you know to be racist against therefore they had that in you citizens to be racist against which has been our most recent target and of course you know the arabs in between because we're waging war. lace so for me this is somewhat of

a diversion i'm happy to see the back of the statues but if it just is a question of looking at statues and taking them away whilst doing nothing about the roots this is limit is it ok what does it change exert george exactly after that action is needed well that's how i see it all ok that i offered to address social inequities absolutely ok but you know george there's this whole movement it's a career in the present there is no any past is adulterated it's dirty it's toxic it must be wiped away i mean how can we address inequality inequities without knowing the structural process they created in the 1st place and that's all in history ok and as far as you know seeing the bad guys that is that's a totally different question and i think that we should talk about that i think we should talk about what statutes mean but this is this is the taliban and it's

a ship of western culture if you don't like it you don't understand it you just roy go ahead joe. yes absolutely and of course the taking down all statues is a process that's only just begun it goes it isn't going to stop with robert the elite. because you know next up obviously the founding fathers washington and jefferson well they were slave owners woodrow wilson retrograde views on blacks f.d.r. japanese americans and we're not in it winston churchill's pearl in a box ok can i do not go exactly so you know winston churchill who was a been an icon icon and it might show europe and united states for us since his death more than 50 years ago is now a reviled figure because he's an impure so everything else that he has done you know what i'm leader of the get forgotten is just an impaired but one we know that

this is a fraud is that if you really want to oppose imperialism if you really want to oppose. powerful rich powerful countries excerpting their will on weak countries which are non european nonwhite then oppose what the united states the united kingdom and france the imperial powers are doing to syria right now i mean there are there conflicting there was brutal horrific sanctions and causing the misery that oppose what they did in libya destroyed a perfectly well dublin state for god knows what reason and it's and now they did this is a country in which they reintroduced slate so that there's a country where you actually after own going slave trade not the transatlantic slave trade 400 years ago but not only going slave trade in libya again not silence about that or the pressure that's of the sanctions against them venezuela again

latin american country and you know the the you know nonwhite people say nothing about that so. well then here's the purpose of refighting the battles from 150 it's like i mean i think i know the answer to let's go back to bristol john d. i know the answer that it in use that you alluded to it is that no one in the elites here do not want to talk about class that's like kryptonite to these people they don't want to talk it's all because of racism it's not because of class and that way that is actually a very soothing and comforting thing because you know having this purity tests that you plight of people get on your knees take me and all these other things you don't you know address the structural problems of why there is racism in why there is and why there's growing desperation i mean look the phrase was attributed to george floyd but i think it is applied to it least half the united states i can read and it's because of the structural inequalities the been built in and we have all these

woke people that makes them bill privileged even though they don't have they don't know anything about history they don't understand exploitation they're even know that they're being exploited. i mean 100 percent or so many points there and what you said i could pick up on that symbol that resonated with people so much about george floyd's death it wasn't just that it was another policeman the way that it was filmed so we could see the cold blooded nature of his killer some come the need to the net and the words of the dying man i can't read it's you you black for that to resonate with you that mismated across the world because that is the experience of the oppressed and exploited masses every match they can't great they have that need in the neck from imperialism they elderly stare at them and their children and you can't raise and that really resonates and that's why it is as you say about close and the system and not about any black and white and racism at

least pilots in america although. of course those things. are many of the inequalities but really why has expanded now in such a way it's not only the power of this particular merger it's also the fact that it's come on top of as you say a situation where the economic crash which is the biggest accomplishment present a pretty used combined with a health crisis are being disproportionately as always built by the poorest and of course the poorest in the imperius countries are more likely to be black if you're black you're more likely to be poor so that desperation is coming from people losing their jobs have no health care suffering from the crisis the most suffering most from the health epidemic and being in the middle of all of this and of course it's very safe for a lot to say this uprising and they scams and what they don't want is us to get

together and say this is this system is a problem and we must get rid of it so what they were very happy to do is jump on a narrative that encouraged sections of the working class to despise one another and spend their time in the end. fighting one another and you know being made absolute pulls out of on both sides of this argument i mean we saw in london this week you know working class white guys doing let literally hitler salute churchill steps you know you can't make it up you know in their attempt to defend what they see as their culture it's not their culture on the other hand you've got you know they've been pitted against you know angry working class black and asian people who are feeling like they've had enough of the inequalities in the system both sides of bat all suffering from the inequalities inequities of the system and its inability to provide basic security in really simple things like jobs housing health care

education you know it's the losers who benefit from all of this don't. and this this this putting us down into silence of what color are you and christian hierarchy you know the better you are not the more oppressed you are the more kind of just you are tamala g. right you know you know george one of the things i find really quite sickening is that you have the amazons and him silicon valley and you know put on their website black lives matter and you know what that is pure genuflection and it's at no cost of them whatsoever it doesn't affect their bottom line it's it's an amazing cultural cover for them because if amazon actually tears about black lives then why does he treat its workers like certs ok no jeff bezos gets or get. a free card out free card out of jail because he can say you know he takes a knee but it doesn't affect his bottom line is better heck he's become what you've

been more obviously rich during this crisis. exactly and so what it was is that this one black clad math movement has been co-opted by jeff bezos. all these other. silicon valley to whom this is you know your symbolism i mean if these those who really cared about black lives it could well for one thing raise the wages of all the people who work for him he doesn't he got them in . union organizing at his workplace it doesn't mean there's no same goes for jamie diamond same goes for all of the all of these. silicon valley billionaires that you can organize so all of those things that will actually affect their bottom line they don't know and what do they do that they actually. use this black lives true or show their sapir iorio to their work laws because it's their

workforce that his race is not that you know. with the c.e.o.'s with billionaires we don't we're not racist but you you miserable a blight says you know who barely make you make your rent payment you are right i will show you how terribly retrograde you are so this is the god of the game played so there's really nothing radical about it because we know what's right you know what a radical movement is a radical movement is well look what you had with the bolsheviks you have. masses of support they will direct appeal to the last directly appealing you're not going to go to a break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion because i'm a. mass

geysers financial survival guide liquid does that you can convert into gas quite easily. to keep in mind l. as a team into a place. for. the world is determined by. the day or thinks. we dare to ask.

welcome back to crossfire where all things are considered i'm peter all about trying to discussing something. ok let me go back to george herbert right before the break you were making a point what i think is really interesting in all this is that among conservatives and people that are more interested in class like our guest in bristol you know i hear there refrain and it really makes me worry say you know i'm not really interested in this but the problem is is that what islam is interested in you in their economy for you go ahead george yes absolutely because what happens. workplaces at workplaces of jamie diamond and the workplaces of these laws is

that white workers and black workers. occasionally. how does that because you know lou you're white and always be held to be racist and to be. had all kinds of news on things so you're going to have this constant tussle between the white because i'm black well it was a we're suppose a racist and rather than over the fact that both are. almost no pay work hours palling work conditions and all of the money being siphoned off through the people at the top i mean it's no accident that these arses . give us their wealth you know what are your i'm getting really and why not what you said. they did they argue about the statues and i've seen a lot of historical artifacts out of people that are a statue with abolition abolitionists ok and they don't even know who it is oh but

it's a statue of apparently about white guy who listens how insane it is. let me go back to one of the things i find really terrifying in this is it 1st of all this whole locus of movement is detaches itself from the rule of law and it touches itself. from merrit i would say it attaches itself from. being reasonable you can't argue with these people it's like you know argument the plot earth are ok and the problem is was i see is this the visions that are artificially created to set us against each other is it where is the limits if you take the knee or you lay on your stomach and you put your hands behind your back and then they want more and more and more and when what this does is it creates an enormous amount of intimidation a chilling effect and again it gets away from the very core basic ideas that we're trying to get across on this program. absolutely i mean if we want to

understand where this work culture as you describe it identity politics where it's come from it's really something which has jumped into a space that was left by a retreating class conscious working class movement you know we my lifetime has been a lifetime of seeing that movement the working class in retreat you know the socialist countries were destroyed to my mind it's all temporary but you know history goes up and down in these last 40 years we've seen a retreat of working class forces and into the space these the working class demands equality for women. end of racism end of colonialism end of imperialism they were working class to much and they still are but what's happened is with the retreats other class coaches leadership for the working class you have the chasm is asian all of these struggles and they've been transformed they've been put into a separate side so you don't know long to recognize that women's liberation is a class question that anti racism is

a class question that anti imperialism is about class it's about the system of capitalism as well as imperialism you put them into separate silos and we've had this kind of bush was a fixation if you like of working class demands they become things that you study at university women's studies and the enemy is men and black studies and the enemy is white people you know and it's a wonderful safe narrative for imperatives and listed with the step she is as well what was was what is being pushed so hard by our media and then very much in support of the debate of a statue because we can all discuss history and imperious crimes become something as george said something from the pots imperialism is in existence now and it's crimes are worse than ever you know look at those the playstation was in congo that been fought in the last 15 years how many millions. died so we can play our playstation while we're not on the streets saying congolese lives matzoh our

home without play stations ignoring it you know. the salute. even does it say about how the rule is in this crisis to prove the white house cat everybody should have everyone in this ng i mean if they can but then you know the debts it but that is such a vacuum of leadership i mean the we our leaders are now part of the worst in my lifetime bar no i mean it's absolutely i mean we can sort of bought off ok there they serve a purpose here you know george one of the things i find very. disheartening is that if you really look at what's happened with the economy how it how it you know i could be exploded into the culture now into our politics here i mean this is a real boom for the studies people because every you know to fight racism black lives matter wolk ism you need an equity counselor you need a diversity counselor you need it your person the chief in this apartment and you know what all those worthless agrees that have been burned up don't last 30 years

there is upward mobility there but it what they do is you taking this paradigm and they're just reinforcing all the problems we have discussed here and it feels so great doesn't it if you're if you're the one it's there it's pointing and you know if you're if you're a priest or a priest as in this church you're elevated ok i mean this reminds me of you know kids that were for pot you know sit down and get on your knees you know you know and it's terrifying and you know what people are sick maybe going to this is extraordinary moment go ahead george has yes exactly so what you're now creating and i don't obviously didn't create it to some time is a farce administrative clouts reality parasitical. that will be. getting another boot on the neck over the world goes. because they will be there at every workplace to point fingers at employees who create

a barely able to make a living that you are a terrible retrograde person you have terrible views of women you have terrible views on terrible abuse of homosexuals don't you need to be reeducated we however you know we have you know the degrees you know we're doing very nicely thank you very much so it will be good guest you know the burden on people who are already booked and of course that that's why the j.v. diamond and the rest the room was so happy with this great rio you know i work as will be even more miserable because they will constantly be up in the human resources office told what terrible people they are and how they must be educated so to get out of. this period and then then it is to their it vanish this managerial professional class but have all these worthless degrees and high esteem about themselves racism will never end because that's their job ok too not to ever

it was like in the soviet union to you ever perfect socialism you know i mean it's already perfect we're going to ever respect that a bit more they have no way knishes have to see this kind o. o. o. cultural terrorism to come to an end and if they do they'll just find another one i'll be sexism or something like that yes though they exactly what's up in your browser. there is. yes i think george is really put his finger on something extremely important about all of this discourse and the constant substitution of the policing of language and symbols that language in particular when you know policing language to the extent that they identity politics against police language what you're doing is shutting people out of the conversation what you're doing is telling working class you better not look you know mouth as you much you know i come from a what if not to put it my dad is india. amazing let's write something that makes backgrounds and through my lifetime the way people described that has changed and

these days it changes so fast i don't know what i'm supposed to say. i mean i had a bit mixed race doesn't make sense to make it i think we're all human race so likes to explain to somebody else you know they get offended or my the hostler used the wrong word well well well well said i have to do it and you know it's nothing and it being encouraged into smaller and smaller boxes you can only talk to somebody who has the exact same experience as you go to find you know often job. who was born in 1000 i can get a budget and it was another people you know they could understand my experience so we'll be you know we can maybe be allies but really you won't get my experience and i'll never get yours and when it's posing for the ruling class because we can never ever unite we're all in a little tiny little box it's getting fragmenting ever more and you know everybody else is the enemy everything you know you come a connect professional name naval base at me in my experience my playing you know

fundamentally none of this changes the system as you say it encourages more privileged educated workers to despise the ones who don't have their you know education in the right word. who taught us was keeps the poor workers out of politics and discussion altogether until they just get it had enough of being despised they can feel that it's not since you know but they don't have the leadership to explain to them how and why it's nonsense and fundamentally we're really just pitted against each other wasting our time and our energy while the ruling class is pushing us all down and down and down you know it's really interesting here that there was those some of the wildcat strikes georgia with amazon and there was a pretty remember the gentleman's name he was trying to organize the workers and you happen to be african-american. and i know you and i saw i know you saw some interviews with him and amazon said that he was let go because you broke social

distancing and he's not very articulate which i thought was so amazing because i watched the interviews with him he was very articulate to me it was because he was articulate that's what they were rated go ahead yes yes exactly because of course what amazon jamie diamond and the rest of them afraid of is seeing a serious lead that he's organizing among the workers here is left out is the key to word or keep going like that and that's what you had you know which were the serious socialist revolution but the serious source of this revolution was russia and what did they do they organize among the working class and they precisely said to not let. you know the capitalist bit you against one another that's exactly what they never do they going to bit you against one another don't tell you that he's the enemy is the enemy and that and that which you know that's not organized but

now the left as embraced identity politics all with the blessing of the richest men in the world then of the restraint in the lead and there is no serious or radical movement so we have these empty symbolism of taking down statues which as you know we've said earlier does nothing to improve anyone's life that it was that he was gone now to get back to work and minimum wage so this this then is the result of a complete sort of de frank all serious left brought out of time here this was a fascinating discussion we're going to keep doing it with both of you ok because i really think it's important for your research that's all the time we have i want to thank my guests and good guys then in bristol and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here r.p.c. a next time remember us.

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