some sort of a solution some sort of a panacea but among scientists have they really arrived at the consensus that a vaccine is the ultimate weapon against cobbett 19. it's an essential weapon so sure. i don't believe it will solve all the problems there are many problems about producing the sufficient scale distribution out of a sense that we may become overcomes that there are people may think once of invention natured that all of the problems are going away and that's not true either at the societal level or at the individual level because it's unlikely that a fuss about actually will be on the percentage of sectors that is speaking about this over confidence even on the bass of vaccines i mean this you mean the best possible scenario the vaccine will still have its limitations what's a realistic expectation at this point of time or whatever back you should be able

to do i'll be talking about i don't know seasonally protected high risk groups or is it all about eliminating 1000 in its totality. it's certainly not about to limit the virus which is probably impossible in the early virus the terrible been a minute or 2 just small they've now been trying to relive in a rodeo for 40 years so it's cost something like 10 times the original estimate and it's still not totally successful so it would be a disaster if people stopped saying we must try to eradicate the virus because it will prove it will prove impulsive oh and far too costly it's a question of control i heard you say before that historically vaccines have been prone to mission creep so to say these ever expanding objectives and part of that may have something to do with the fact that the vaccines are one of the fastest

growing markets for big pharma but speaking of these idea that we batted develop vaccines against everything to do you take it as more commercially driven or is it perhaps just a form of magical thinking the psychological demand for one more safety which i think is so characteristic of our times. that's a very difficult question. i think the important thing to emphasize as that the kind of underlying dynamic of vaccine development the strange and in the 19 a is whereas previously vaccines have been seen as purely in the only launching a true or a proper kind of bait increasingly in the 1980 s. became seen as a commercially valuable commodity and there was a partial decoupling between the needs of the health system and the approaches of

fracturing development but under a recently a great deal of the dynamic behind vaccine development risk commercial now it's more complicated to recruit 51 tree about it's a very very much commercially driven speaking about call it 900 specifically i. think you would probably agree with me that it's not the data the ester fire says when it lands on the meter bullet only compromised calculations it's dangerous magnified many times over and this is only a major issue with the race to the accident praised because i think it ignores a vital part of what makes this virus. so dangerous and so deadly. don't you think that in focusing so much on vaccines we are essentially taking a shortcut and ignoring structural issues which make so many people not all but so many people so susceptible and small vulnerable not only tickled at 19 but to many

other viruses as well. turkey agree and i mean that's that's an interesting question for a historian because. in 1998 there was a very famous come from certain not key in kazakhstan which came up with the idea of healthful all on the idea was very much the vaccines or any specific disease focused acknowledged to be seen as a long way from bugs used within a much broader socio economic approach to dealing with. the rejection by some place or as some by some experts of the idea that the infectious diseases had to be treated with a much broader array of let's say equalizing technologies providing basic health care and decent living conditions for every party and that was the only way of protecting us ultimately and vaccines have to be seen as one instrument in that

role in that broader approach but some people prefer to forget about that and say we must take it with a system technology is a disease or time so. we launched the idea of focusing on those socio economic course of your conscience and i think that's one of the tragedies are our present situation and why we become overreliant over we place too much faith in a back street you know it's the the magic bullet that will slow up with limbs a lot of experts and voicing concerns about the speed of development and under investigated long term consequences but i would like to ask you about the vaccine design because most of the developers are currently in the face 3 trials of focusing on a single viral approaching the salt called spike protein as be immunised an

adjutant. isn't that preaching dangerous isn't that putting most if not all that absent one busken well i know. i'm not a viral edge of a store of banks and all just. what struck me as the. 10 or so vaccines that were counted eventually and now in trials indeed some of them i'm making to solve tech and platforms like that and some of them i'm making here so of recombinant d.n.a. trigger knowledge is which are not yet been used in existing human licensed human bankruptcy so i'm glad i mean i'm not an expert on these these things but i wouldn't say i'd be morning trying to place my faith in a vaccine that uses an established platform an established way of making vaccines i mean it's very complicated because most vaccines consists not only of.

thing the one who may protect but also an adjutant which will strengthen the reaction well what i'm struck by is that how little coordination and any there is on being a national level it seems that everybody is just brushing to bring a lot of whatever they had in development without really trying to 0 on you know how much their breaths and take on different areas of expertise is that in that example in a situation like this or do you think it would have been managed in an more effective way and it's all back well now we get into questions of politics i mean that's something. about the present situation of course is that we're now in a situation in which the the world health organization which tried our kind of monopoly of moral forestry in the field and stream progressive we

undermine. it's very difficult to say where and if consensus could be reached survey is. a structure kovacs riches been established by the world health organization and godfrey something called c.p. which is basically all slow but to a number of launch countries have chosen not to participate in it it should be a way of kind of ensuring some drove or anxious to actually change even in poor countries but the big problem is that vaccine development in this band has become as been turned into a matter of global geopolitical strangeness and that's tragic we will definitely talk more about that but let me ask you a question about w.h.o. it's very hard to see you would just pass its policies in

a balanced way partially because adults under doesn't immediately invokes all the. american political infighting but as color jeev being the w sure has lived up to the authority that it claims for in south aroud these prices we needed to have a new fish person to we have to restore it. any of this this is so different a situation i'm from let's say the way in which smallpox was eradicated shipped in which the w.h.o. . presided over a very successful a radicalization campaign in which the major powers in the wont whatever their political differences ship them aside in order to collaborate under the auspices of w.h.o. in ridding the well look this terrible deceived we are all still look bad so no at

the moment w.h.o. khan to get them but the world will be better if you coach well there is no question about that i guess i'm trying to figure out the limits of the sort of chord a nation verses are in decision making because after the make a very interesting point that many governments are now failing themselves to be under pressure to conform to some sort of a single health policy regardless of the it in a logical situation on the ground there social taboos that cultural attitudes their budgets and i would argue that we have seen this play out vividly if they're out of the college 19th endemic when there is a very strong push for strong quarantines even though that would have produced. major problems and other you know satyrs of upside to hasn't really served us well i mean i'm not speaking about of course nation but the sense that i've singlehanded single policy approaches you and i gloat all condemning regardless of what the

situation really is on the ground i'm not even sure what the parameters or whatever of some turturro policy would be. one of the issues of course at the moment is how to ensure. when they're all is a vaccine away there are a number of vaccine they get to the places that them most needed that we wouldn't even agree on the road wouldn't even agree as to what those places are i mean most people now saying vote since the beginning that won't be enough vaccine for everybody. priority should be given to those those most urgently need of it like. health care workers people in essential occupations but there's not likely to be much agreement as to who back tears. and what about the millions of people in refugee camps they're not going to be at the top of any for his list of priorities and yet they could easily turn into

a hotbed of brutal infection it's hard to say it's hard to think you're going to instantly implementable solution because the the situation we're in have such a deep roots going back let's say at least of the 1980 s. and cops i mean it's a lot of issues to consider but for the time being our professor going to have to take a very short break we'll be back in just a few moments. of the.

there's a warp of it there were policemen of the police who would go through the maze and sure there. were the sound of the guy who. was only as a name for almost any of the polls on which to move closer. to the field so. the both of you so. the point was to use the book with the ghost discovering that those that would use up these are the 1000000000 users of the of the media of course you.

are. welcome back to worlds apart this tour the globe professor emeritus of science and technology studies at the university of amsterdam and to someone just before the break we touched upon the geopolitical aspect of public health and you developed that argument in your new york times piece what are your road that they raise to develop a vaccine isn't just about saving lives it's also about power profit and national prestige is there anything wrong with that that's

a very good christian. well we'd like to think. there's it's all about saving lives but in fact the very beginnings of public health in the 19th century the founder of public health hooterville called said don't public health his politics played by other means and will lead to think that all the fullest systems are dependent on the initiatives that are taken are in the interests of on health and in fact. not true to me because they also have an 8 infused with those other considerations how to live it as i mean that isn't the only thing you need to. look at that is the sort of public health problem profile at a major countries in europe the that you know people's interest i'm not at the top of that genda not each talked a lot about the fact that it will act. too backwards and i wonder what

equitable even means in these danger isn't the government's 1st obligation to its own citizens yes i suppose it is inevitable and i suppose politically well politically inevitable for sure their governments will think 1st about their their own citizens well then we get into the vexed question of who or who's we who's obstacles and i'm british where i'm pretty sound dot's i've been living in a country which is not the country of my birth for a long time and the populations now are very mobile by. it because it's more difficult than it might have been. 50 years ago even to say who our own people are so yes it's inevitable i think collision communicable that got him elected politicians will give priority to their own citizens sons but there are

times to be somehow downtrodden by. for those who not over are considered to be our school whose are where do we draw from orange now i want to ask you specifically about national mysterious because. this name be a self-serving question before you remember that the russians were there 1st you register that you're in a vaccine and they've received a lot of negative press in the west a lot of allegations that the problem is sacrificing our jacket as well shall or glory even though russian developers are going for the same stages as our western colleagues they're publishing their results in the same medical journals like the labs and i want to be on such air politically and to political charged issue how does one distinguish legitimate concerns from politically driven and actives well for most of us or to people because regionally go what's available in the

public media i've seen the reaction mr beaty. the vague to the launch of the russian backseat no longer registration it's not necessary in order to know it started these based try as i mean that's how the russian process works where the one hand it's true or right as far as i understand thought phase 3 trials of that fraction of not being completed on the other hand i have no doubt order of the negative publicity in the west is ponting moti very jaded by both political and commercial interests. i mean. russia one previously the soviet union had a long tradition of making that actually and on a very long scandal that's sure and i think the only thing we can probably agree on is of nobody really agree so knows where the 1st generally available and effective

function will come from now there is 11 more important distinction between a russian and the west and approaches to your taxes and. part learned it from from your own writing because in the west as you write this states used to be involved in the production of saxons but it's no longer the case in most countries it's primarily a corporate down to price in russia most vaccines are still developed produced and overseen by the state and i wonder if there is any difference in how the scenes made how they are developed how they test the child and market it how they sell how they've used depending on who runs the back of the business by the it's the state or whether except for preventive price who as there are times i'm working with people from 9 country is on a book. the twitter writing on exactly how this ship

a public private domain to place in each country it's very complicated question i'd rather own i'd rather come back into yes when we finished our book. i think on the one hand it was true that many of the state in strict troops in many countries were. underfunded perhaps insufficiently wretched like tears but also would denied access to the most sophisticated technology has by commercial companies that are patented on the on around. those institutes have certain deficiences without any doubt but people trusted what they produced because people knew that they were better to produce the tools the better national health system required bot. there is no doubt that the o. in stripy own public sector institutes rich indeed in most countries short of

vanished all are in process of being dismantled. were there was a deficiency is was seen as trustworthy as it were so the interests of the health of the people to british and they were not much if at all influenced by market so commercial considerations too we've lost something. for sure and that's the wrenching out of the book we're working on i'm looking forward to reading it because here you're always very very interesting if fact in that book you also mentioned that. this attitude towards vaccines as these big bully grail of public health as the main to acknowledge ease of control and prevention was in part form because of their rivalry between the soviet union and the united states you know alluded to that actually him and his earlier that the united states was pushing for vaccines and that is only if you any and was

advocating abt rother socio economic approach. following because of it 19 pandemic which really demonstrated i think this same deal says in fascism metabolic diseases i mean it's really a hybrid disease at its core do you think that will change do you think there would be more are so her appreciation of how sick and commercial practices may. jeopardize public health today extended then the state may not be even able to deal with that because it even without calling it 1000 many states were already struggling with the rates of diabetes and heart heart disease etc that were primarily produced by you know runaway consumption of certain people. well just one slight correction the the emphasis on a broader approach came suddenly from the from the from the server during the it

also came from the w.h.o. and the director general of that every chair at that time now tamala who was from norway o'donnell also said it has to be brought. whether we can ever go back to that. who knows i mean i mean i don't think the brutal system that's very quick to look what to be done from the financial crisis of 10 years ago what you really love from previous epidemics we're not very good at learning because it seems so so interest trumps knowledge well you seem to be very pessimistic and i think they're quiet if you will very inspiring examples of let's say sort of broader human interest in mind and one of them in my view is the polio vaccine after you mansion these facts and before as as an example of sort of geopolitical competition and this audience trumpeting its success at

their successes in producing that backs and but behind it it is actually a story of collaboration because they saw good scientists god that their regional sample from that american colleague who had adopted time no chances of getting bad backs him into a production because it was based on an attenuated polio virus rather than in it and captivated by that the united states was favoring at that time so collaboration and pretty large scale collaboration it was possible even to hide of the cold war surely it should be possible now of course i would like to think the to expulsion from i would like to think that we can tackle the social and economic courses both towards the emergence of new viral diseases. susceptibility to infection. it's hard to know who. are we do i mean it would need it would require

a transformation. ways of living if we are if we are political leaders are really to facing seriously perhaps perhaps it sponsible i would like to think it's possible. i don't see the seeds of it yet well maybe you got stuck being skeptical maybe my questions actually absence i want to finish with a very practical question based on in part on on your book ask about have accents became so controversial because you know that if you know them and baxter and yet you recognise the 2nd has a patient and suspicion at around the issue ringback of vaccines is not unwarranted because they were instances of a method call and commercially driven handling of vaccines now how should parents go out about it should they research every single vaccine and they're acting current it's $1.00 to $6.00 recommended by the dollar and shown more than 30 in the

into about men i mean how do you make an informed decision on such a complicated issue when you're sitting there by yourself in your living room and you're trying to decide what's best for your child well i think one thing won't one thing on their to say to the pope and sometimes both wester throw a different light on vaccine hazards i'm sure you're going to show that the reasons that something like 50 percent of people in many countries in some countries are now saying they wouldn't take a back shouldn't against the code be 1000 actually even when there is one so on the one hand there's the question of reestablishing people strong strain of banks because we need people to accept one if it's going to have any benefit to compare any benefit the other questioner or so to choose sometimes a policy question to choose between. which vaccines to introduce into the international or. that's a nation scheme and how to choose an alternative i think one lesson we all ought to

have learn. about probably haven't as the vaccines have to be acceptable to the compilation before long they are broke out in a in a society because if the nauts acceptable there is a real risk of undermining faith in the vaccination system as a whole and i think governments are under such pressure to introduce a vaccine rapidly that the willingness to consult and to ensure acceptability was somehow been eroded joint think. people have to trust of actually we have to think about how to reestablish trust both in vaccination generally and in a crew in fact when we have and that raises questions that go beyond beyond. there are about transgender political systems from in our institution for preservation we are out of time there really grateful for you joining us today thank you very much

for being frank are very much an interesting discussion and they fearful what you hope to syria again next week and all the part of. our. trade and investment to become magic spells to come get you cannot make development . most people think about trade they think about goods and services being exchanged between countries and the investor a chapter of a trade agreement is about something very different but what one investment leads

to toxic manufacturing that destroys sacred sites all ruins the environment. that means that local communities that are being poisoned if they object if they do anything that the company feels is interrupting their profits they can be certain. of taking on the whole nation philip morris is trying to use i.s.t.'s to stop tour of the way from implementing new tobacco regulations aimed at cutting domestic smoking rates a french company sued. egypt because egypt raise its minimum wage to democratic choice trump cool britain will join us as we try to fund don't want to. join me every week on the elec so i'm unsure when i'll be speaking to us of the world of politics. i'm sure. i'll see that.

in the weekly germany agrees to cooperate with last count on a probe into the alleged poisoning of opposition figurehead as they issue riles german lawmakers and parliament. among one wave of unrest continues and demonstrators plan to hit the streets of minsk again this sunday it comes as a high profile opposition leader is arrested this week. and the big guns of the british political scene split down the middle over prime minister boris johnson's plan to discipline bill.