solution network professor jeffrey sachs of the center for sustainable development at columbia university thank you so much jeffrey for coming on before i even get to the book in the past few days there's been a story that will commented on arguably 13000 refugees on the island of lesbos in greece all there are makeshift homes were burnt down somehow an emblematic vision of globalization in 2020. there are a lot of people being displaced and there are a lot of people suffering to right now actually not only do we have a pandemic but we have disasters of emergencies political crises all 'd over the world and in these interconnected crises lots of people who are suffering are not even being recognized as such it's a pretty dramatic time niner the new book the ages of globalization goes right from the beginning of time you yourself have gone through a journey arguably intellectually tell me about briefly about the new book you've

been grappling with global interconnectedness for as long as we've been a species this book starts from our ancient past indeed our 1st migrations out of africa as modern human beings and takes us through how technological advances in agriculture in writing with alphabets in ocean navigation with the steam engine and now in our time with the digital age have reshaped this interconnectedness it's quite a story of course it is the the history of humanity because we are globally interconnected in fundamental ways whether we have nationalism or not we can't help but having this interconnectedness of course a days before this book was being finalised came the pandemic a so i you quickly scrambled with a preface at the beginning to say well this is quite horrific it's not the 1st time

pandemics themselves have reshaped our lives as well they are also emblematic of globalisation you know we have government advisers on this show sometimes quite a quite a few but we don't have people who advised more than 140 countries around the world to learn un secretary general is the big question about the pandemic of course is what is your advice to rich and poor countries grappling with a recession a depression may be the worst in centuries. my advice always which politicians don't like is for us to understand the situation and look around at who's doing well because in this pandemic there are a few countries that have gotten an under control china's one of them a korea to a large extent australia new zealand vietnam among poor countries b.t.r.

cambodia really amazing quite poor countries have beaten this virus down and then the united states out of control brazil out of control and so if you study these patterns you learn a lot 1st of all about bad governance because we have disastrous governance in the united states now we have been learned in the last couple of days trumps lies of course that's not news but lies specifically about the pandemic. what an idiot i'm sorry to say because at 190000 deaths in this country because we don't have the truth about what's happening so a lot of what we learn about the pandemic is you need data you need science you need evidence you need truth well i've always see the c.d.c. says they giving that information and travel they're not well done there and has the local

a not called donald trump on the some of the september said starting to get very high marks in our handling of the coronavirus china virus especially when compared to other countries and areas of the world now the vaccines plus a coming in fast that's what your presidency the united states has had one of the worst experiences of this pandemic and i would say i've never seen such poor leadership in the united states in my lifetime i believe he's the worst president we've ever had though you know there are some 19th century presidents who are no great shakes you favorite favorite bernie signed as i understand i did. i. more importantly want honesty and decency in government because that's the only way that lives can be saved and we're not even to this moment taking the basic measures that those successful countries have achieved so when it comes back

to your question what's my advice i've been saying for months look at the countries that are successful what are they doing of course using face masks physical distancing blocking large gatherings collecting data tracing the pathways of infection helping people to isolate safely basic things even before a vaccine we have a higher per capita death rate here in britain and then bring him in very also same style improvisation not consistent in its policies this is really something we're learning about the difference of populism and personality on the one side and saving lives but isn't there something else in the something else about the countries you just mentioned which is the role of the state you mention china vietnam of course relatively well known the coronavirus response in venezuela

in cuba in countries which did not embrace new liberal globalization isn't that a fact i think the factor is good clear governance in fact there are countries that are democracies there are countries that are not democracies there are countries with very different political structures new zealand has gotten the cases basically down to 0 i should say though it's going up again a new zealand now now but it's not going up in large numbers it's notable that there is a new outbreak but that's after. essential is 0 it still tiny numbers measured as a per. 1000000 population for example which is a good way to make comparisons in europe and the countries of northern europe especially finland denmark norway and iceland 4 of the 5 nordic countries have done

a very good job of keeping the death rates low say compared to the u.k. or italy look i think i think sorry to interrupt but we've been told here in this country the important thing now is to get britain back to work it's a it's an idea that's often said from podiums in the white house as well is it austerity that will be required to get to the g. 7 economies and g. 20 economies the worst hit ones back to any kind of economic now that the idea of getting back to work is. fine but you can't get back to work in a raging pandemic without controlling the pandemic actually the country that has had the most significant rebound in the economy is china a china took extremely strong measures after the initial outbreak in a but it took them decisively for about $45.00 days the virus came

almost to 0 there are a few cases but after all china a few cases new cases per day i would say but after all china has 1400000000 people so a very low numbers of. cases per 1000000 population and china's been able to reopen the economy in the united states with all this bluff and lie and we care about the economy we don't care about the virus and so forth we are suffering an unprecedented downturn and mass unemployment and the pandemic still goes on so this idea that well some people said it's the economy some people said it's the virus is a basic massage. understanding if you have a pandemic you need to stop it if you want your economy to recover is their big irony you coming from you extolling the virtues of china because obviously you were brought in to russia after the fall of the soviet union if it had been the chinese

going as a body that had failed and you'd been an advisor back in the late eighty's you'd have privatized all the structures that it today clearly helping the chinese people cope with kovan absolutely not and i pretty sure you know better but i'm not sure you do. i recommended then for any country i advised a mixed economy of markets and government and i was bad and i am now ideologically a social democrat and that is the philosophy in which you have a market economy and you have a government that has responsibilities for example for health or for stopping pandemics and you may know but perhaps not that i was not only not only not involved in the russian privatization but i opposed the russian privatization it was lawless and i resigned from trying to help russia because it

was becoming so corrupt so i was against that what i was trying to help to do was stabilize the finances of russia in 1992 and 93 but the u.s. government rejected every single proposal i made which was to be nice to russia to give a temporary period of debt stands still a stabilization for the ruble help on the financing of course the history gets very garbled and people say many things but just to straighten up the record that i might have gone or only have it in the new york times. em's 22nd up to 92 you say you are a free market idea of a book that is false i didn't say and it has had the now and i have and by the way what i can show you point blank in verbatim interviews is that

i subscribe to i said in 1809 and i would say it had a though they didn't do such a great job i said sweden is my favorite economy so that is what social democracy is it is a mixed economic system and the point of those years by the way i spent more time trying to help fund the russian government's health system so that people could get basic health care and of course i met complete wall from the hard line united states and a many many others so this is absolutely silly and this is well known and the country that came closest to. what i wanted to have happen successfully and. what if the circumstance were the

u.s. for its own geopolitical reasons so supported the advice was poland which is exactly a mixed economy which is what it should be this is what economies should be well arguably poland stopped the privatization process earlier than the drive to privatization in russia which created the only talk so what happened through a little bit off topic but i just want to i but i do want to say that. i said and just for the record because it's it is important for me to say you don't privatized the big natural resources of a country and give them into private hands basically in fast in those years and i was aghast at that and said that there was a lot of corruption and the shares for loans programs and all those other things i was long gone from advising because i wanted nothing to do with what was actually

yeah i mean i'm just quoting things as it may be i know what are the motives floating you know you're quoting the times in 2002 livingstone as you're quoting very funny things that are the new york times living sennheiser up by half in russia for the 3 as professor sachs advise boris yeltsin but i mean listen i don't know why i don't know who or what you're posting or when you're quoting new york times 29th of november 20022002 this is by the way i. simply because that is 10 years after what we're talking about so i don't need it and is at an article by me how this makes no sense jeffrey all something that more from jeffrey sachs after this short break.

a new gold rush is underway in ghana thousands of ill equipped workers are flocking to the gold fields hoping to strike it rich. as. children are torn between gold. was very poor i thought i was doing my best to get back to see which side will have the strongest appeal. the world is driven by shaped. thinks. we are here to ask.

welcome back i'm still talking to the director of the un sustainable development solutions that work professor jeffrey sachs let's get back to the book and globalization because in the book the role of clos and of violence probably is going to raise some eyebrows in that it's not really there i mean something else you said in managing the debt crisis a previous book of yours you said after a civil war a new military regime under president suharto began to bring economic order to the country is the role of violence in globalization missing from your analysis in the new book globalization the ages of globalization. if you read the book you'll find it all through the book. but the violence of capital again gets the masses

of what has been the. if you read the book you'll find that i make that explicit point at the core of the birth of modern capitalism i say that it was violent links of the state actually piracy and multinational companies after all the east india company had a private army for heaven's sake it was a company that took over large parts of india and i make this point absolutely explicitly it's one of the core themes of this book and how as how much violence has accompanied capitalism so i'm glad you ask and i'm very eager for readers to read that part because this is a core part of what this book describes to them where is the reputation of shock therapy come from about you in bolivia in mongolia in russia when where has this reputation come from you know how simple minded the media are sometimes yet listen

i think you know do you know what it means to have complex views and then have them repeated day in this acco chamber of 2 words for 30 years it's absurd so i don't know where it comes from except for the fact that in our world today but i think it's always been true like this things get repeated and repeated and repeated by people who don't read don't know don't think don't have the concepts and don't want a slogan so everybody wants a slogan but life's not about slogans we live in a complex world ok i mean i think this is just a guess just to give you you know. if we could go on at length about this i be happy to although would be an economic seminar. when i worked on in those

years was helping financial stabilization for example bolivia to. get rid of a massive overhang of debt i almost didn't have a 1000000 time m.t.v. went up in bolivia of tyrannizing the guns not stop stop being so celie by the way this is not debating points if this is absurd frankly speaking ok and i'm sorry it looks just telling you whatever they stuck in your book to ask me it's stupid because this is not the way we should be let's get to the hell logical it really is not the way we should discuss things because the fact of the matter is just to take the libya from 1802 to 98979 to 1984 there were something like can heads of state i don't even remember was complete chaos they reach 60000 percent annual inflation a complete collapse of b. economy narco government for several years that's the fact that's the basis that i

walked into this you're telling me about whether t.v. went up which is nonsense by the way there's a doubling of what you indicate is here to break i can give you the big no no no well that's that's that's moving no wait a minute this is the kind of sandbagging that really makes no sense in an interview i'm sorry because if one wants to have a serious discussion. you know which i will start with when you are in complete chaos you need to create some kind of base so that people can survive when you have 60000 percent inflation and bankruptcy i came up with a strategy to actually eliminate the debt it was the 1st time i told the i.m.f. no they cannot pay that was the basis to get started again on some stability and on improvements of living standards and life expectancy and child survival and

vaccine coverage and so on in an impoverished place that had had chaos beforehand they didn't invite me there for a vacation and they didn't invite me there because something was wonderful and then professor sachs would make it terrible i was asked because it was complete chaos and no one else was interested by the way and i had to face down the i.m.f. to say no impoverished country in the all to plan 0 that has gone through a hyperinflation one of the worst in world history needs that debt cancelled not just to be repaid as the i.m.f. was asking for in venice the i.m.f. and will bang their recognize that they did make mistakes of course the destruction no that is not all of this i'm happy to hear that i've she said you talk about bolivia what is your view about evo morales as and what's happening in bolivia at the moment. i'm not there. so he has because

arguably it has been u.s. foreign policy in all these countries that is another context of the the questions that you raise in the new book yeah and if you would follow i'm probably the most outspoken person in the united states opposing the sanctions on venezuela because i think that they are illegal and i think that they are devastating to a country and there are not too many people in my country speaking out that way so i and my previous book called a new foreign policy beyond american exceptionalism is filled with the history of america regime change so perhaps you didn't know that but that's actually my view ok i've got to ask of is this speaking for britain about brics that you have been an opponent of it in the past what do you make of the developments here apparently britain saying it may have to remain going to an international treaty do. it with

people in britain going with francs a look britain doesn't have to renege on a treaty boris johnson says he wants to renege on a treaty if governments could just follow through on what they have promised to do and actually act transparently and honestly not with the improvisation of boris johnson or donald trump we may actually save lives stop a pandemic keep but trade going and not have a condom is in shambles so i am against this kind of improvisation where you agree one day and then the next day you say well i'm going to send a law to parliament that is in violation of fundamental things that i agreed with just recently because i don't want to do those anymore what kind of government is that. now you've witnessed the rhetoric of the chump administration what it says about china pompeo said in august the 2nd just say what's happening now isn't cold

war 2.0 the challenge of resisting the communist party of china threat is in some ways worse what do you think that means for the world u.s. policies of a china at the moment they have way company sanctions and so forth for the world it means i hope that donald trump is defeated in november because this is a very dangerous policy and i wrote an article which people could find on line explaining that mr pompei o himself is apparently an evangelical who believes in the coming armageddon and he seems to be provoking or moving us closer to it i'm not in favor at all and i thought that speech it was one of the worst and most dangerous that i can recall of senior american official and i was actually before talking about the logical crisis i know you in your

many different roles have been highlighting the ecological crisis where do you think that is at the moment you know this will be perhaps the 2nd hottest year. on record 2020 could be the hottest. we have california completely ablaze again in mass forest fires we have extreme temperatures in. the arctic north of russia we had a temperature and some days around 40 degrees celsius. in this planet is destabilized by us mainly as the unfortunate side effect of what was a very good thing which was using fossil fuels which. made possible the modern economy but it was discovered already more than 150 years ago that the carbon

dioxide that comes when you burn fossil fuels creates the. a greenhouse gas that traps heat on the planet and warms earth so we've known this for a long time but in our excel aerated global economy we've started putting out so much carbon dioxide emissions that we destabilize the climate then when we realize that that was $992.00 we signed a treaty to say we've got to stop this before it becomes dangerous and of course it's so hard it's hard for russia it's hard for the united states it's hard for australia it's hard for saudi arabia it's hard for canada any country that has fossil fuels whether it's coal oil or gas said are you kidding we're going to use them this is where our our wealth comes from so nobody has self control and they're

about hanged countries in the world that dominate the supply of fossil fuels the us russia china india with their coal the gulf countries and so on and and australia canada doesn't matter what kind of political system the politics in all of our countries is keep pumping that's wealth that's money that's where we're putting our power comes from and so we can't seem to stop ourselves even as the temperatures are rising the disasters are rising the science is telling us are you kidding are you not going to stop before destruction and yet the politics keeps driving us forward and we've got it. you know we've got a president and so much political corruption that the oil lobby in the coal lobby dominates our politics so the president cheerlead as much

oil gas and coal i should just having them where we're running on time we have ag i'm going to tell you the trump when a straight on the senate this is attempts at every day of my presidency we will fight for a cleaner environment and a better quality of life for every one of our great citizens you do understand that part of the idea is never listen to what the man says because every word seems to be a lie when he says something like that because everything that his government has done has a poll out of b. paris climate agreement even the other big fossil fuel countries didn't pull out of the paris climate agreement are you kidding paul out of the one global agreement to stop the human induced climate change one out of 193 countries i'm not impressed prezza jeffrey sachs thank you and that's it for the show will be back on wednesday which marks martin's day in libya commemorating the lives lost in the fight for libyan independence from italian rule the now 69 years since its

independence libya for me africa's richest per capita nation finds itself in a more ugly catalyzed by destructive policies promoted in washington and london the bill then keeps a force your hands join the underground when you try to sound out in scrummaging. i. thought it was. just before. last time we chased. each one of them carrying 20 kilos 'd of drugs.

first offense. that they just kept going. is the main thing. they have this is the this is for me. it's me. i don't know maybe don't. make or. break. for now we're. forced regime change planes. is not and will love it was also the nub of the saga benefits from this very strange.

club the rallies are held across about us as protests against the president. meeting hundreds. of parts wanted was. no drug the president was trying to leave and leave the presidency for. second round of elections they want change. in . moscow want to probe. an issue that's. why does he have only such a level of protection from. the system why would the russian government. and even let. him in russia. police offices.