we choose to look for common ground. i.

suppose some of us that have a. disposal. last time we chased. each one a little carrying 20 kilos 'd of drugs this is a 1st offense. for that they just stepped right. into the very we i mean the monocle men they believe they have this is the this is the me. i don't know maybe they don't make or. break. part. around more.

hello and welcome to cross talk where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle forced regime change playbook and why it is not and will not work and there was also the no bombing saga benefits from this very strange episode. to discuss this i'm joined by my guest marcus papadopoulos in london he's editor of politics 1st magazine and in budapest we cross to jordan samuel he is author of bombs for peace nato's humanitarian war on yugoslavia are across up rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate when you let me start with george and george let's start with the big everest story because the

pira story looks like it's kind of morphing into who the venezuelan story of the baltics ok because we have this pretend or recognize from. from lithuania i think it is this moment that they can all sky that she's the president in exile right now are they pulling up why go here because i seriously doubt this would be happening in my own peo had made a phone call go ahead george. well they aren't trying to pull away though but of course the why don't case turned out to be a complete fiasco. and it's clear that the trump administration isn't terribly happy with the policy that it got stuck with thanks to the pressure from former national security advisor john bolton so i have my doubts that they go to political i go over this. because if you're going to give them. is

notable for all the absence of pressure from the united states and i say that in actually taking a rather reckless an approach towards this and without pressure from the americans . i don't think this is going to go very far and i think it's so there's already indications that look at shango feels very confident of himself and he's being his usual difficult self with with the russians feeling rather confident that the e.c. at the say you know mark is a i tend to agree with george and on top of it a look at shea khamenei made it very public particularly to to rushing to television stations that he isn't least rhetorically officially open to some kind of transition though within the bounds of russian law that's that indicates to me that he's learned the lesson that he can stay but he has to start thinking of an

exit here what are your thoughts marcus let's see. how something over the last few weeks what we have to say here about very soon is an attempt by the west to regain syria for the west coast resolution and v.s.e. is just an attempt to screw against some of its presence and a use in the school a serious and a soul must say of course they were goes back to you know many examples all. so you can color resolutions jujitsu falsehood and free ukraine seashells on and for the songs he shouts under fire and most recently of all ukraine's few files and for change but these tendencies cure a battery was always going to fail why because the well i mean we're sure save the belorussian population we've gotten cells as possible the

russians well they see themselves as possibly lawson family secondly. we should quit more accurately. ease the facts or province of the russian federation and we have seen that seeing the recent times because the russian ministry in tandem with about russian military has announced see you loose disposes with poland's ukraine and about 6 cents to prevent infiltrates is from coming in for a necessary so on those countries and also russian special services working alongside russian special services have now identified asian protocol consumers all the west in most notably of course. now the real question is or should he not will see isn't always going to what was he going to succeed and no what it has

now done it is shredded for and russia's position over lucas shankara because i did not change litter same color then the unions say it's all for gosh i. wish rules which was formulated between yatsenyuk look a stranger in the late 1960 would have come into being by now but look if schenker has so we get a sense crease in case of the helmet russia to resolution who wants to be a presence of the united states now that looks shanker has low. moderately and without precedent. for assistance in the presence of zion now appears it shows in every leisure each of the kremlin to exercise for christianity so i actually believe peace that innocent person play for the west has actually placed an appearance will go while i believe the material i say shouldn't sooner go off and lay some of the union sites well george but that's the fly in the

ointment here i mean and it's one of the things that i get very frustrated with looking at the west your narrative because it's not about lucas it's about the place that we know is be able to spell russia and its relationship with russia and as marcus quite correctly and in rate detail i discuss this is a this is a single state ok at this point here and the problem has been is that it's been looked at shank unwilling to implement every single phase in stage of that that he signed up to and so could this is the this is the unreported narrative that what's going on in india rules because it's it is kind of a lucas shango problem but for very different reasons go ahead yes that's right. they're the policy before the election which was a hit by the e.u. and the united states was to try to foster as much division between.

belarus and russia as possible and that made a certain amount of geo strategic sense whatever it is makes life difficult for the russians nato the united states regards as a good thing buton as many headaches that's possible but by overplaying their hand in belarus as moch as quite rightly point out. they have now strengthened the the bond between russia and belarus and you're getting them. russia now that the europeans are sensing the food of their policy and have trying to draw back because i do think it's striking that the whole of this propaganda to have. you come off and having all these attractive women around and over the propaganda to try to get oh this is the belarus that we want to recognize this is a legitimate government of belarus that's failed that's that's gone nowhere so it

looks to me like we may be heading to was the pre-election policy of well let's try to foster division but i think that's extremely unlikely to fail i think that i think that a train that left the station speaking about division than if you look at the reaction of the european union member states it's the whole quite go scenario is it's really been given a cold shoulder because you know we're not going to go through this again i think we also have to point out is that the european union as a whole has ukraine i mean look at what the resources and. and time they put into ukraine and well they kind of got a you know a milk toast version of what they wanted ok because. the fundamental reforms that ukraine needs is not happening right now and again just the billions and billions of euros that went nowhere i personally think and get so marcus on was how much do you think that plays into this kind of it. give me some part of the europeans about

this regime change playbook. well here again is huge is naturally i was rifle to the united states in economic times but also malaysia the european union is a strategic friends and i owe it to you to say so we can science and that russians and takes us i'm sure to some ounce of influence over the e.u. policy by you can i use science to begin. nazi files and full saying when america place sanctions on the russian federation because of the crisis in ukraine which incidentally america was also for off the european union. by germany was very apprehensive about wanting to place sanctions on the last they did resist but in the end of the year being union it caved into the pressure to phone the united states and i think if we fast forward to 2020 what we've seen in recent

times. yes the european union has says he player go in that it's simply the case that whole and in the 06 a switch a very dangerous countries for russian national security actually facilitated 6. 100 seats career in the country but i think also mentally the hand of washington is responsible for what we have seen in belarus and i think a piece of the americans are actually emboldened by this high up in ukraine because yes ross analysis money can't be cold it's ukraine and loss i mean ukraine is one of the most corrupt countries in the us and and it has been ever since it came independence in late 990 but nonetheless ukraine as we talk now is integrated and if the west has ukraine is the greatest. policy challenge to the kremlin so i think the americans have the same bones and by their success in ukraine they obviously

did not do their homework so sufficient enough to understand that belarus is not you try and have better risk as i said the facts are a province of the russian federation or you can put it is a russian protectorates in her chart market you said that washington doesn't do its own mortgage they that's kind of an understatement because they screw up every step of the way here i think you're right marcus i mean you know washington is in bold but i think in bold and in a sense. then you can quit it created a quagmire ok we're 8 if you know russia has to take the burden here if it's not a success and the nominal way it's like oh he screwed up that neighborhood it makes the neighborhood unstable that's a victory for us which is a very cynical foreign policy go ahead george yes now that you've hit the nail on the head that peter that's exactly what the american think and it's. not. so the weight goes in belarus the americans will say well it's a tryout because it's

a headache for the europeans because it's right there on their border it's a headache for the russians. and the left well they might say yeah ok you know what's the solution more america because all they say shows that the europeans are unable sort out their own problems so he was and it's the same you know you see the same scenario played out in iraq and syria and libya and say ok if they all had a not out. but what is do is they've been you if you need all these cases you capture elites in specific countries ok and they even toward it within their own in their own country and then within the union you're ok gentlemen to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break more discussion and some real news stay with arkie.

a new gold rush is underway and gonna thousands of ill equipped workers off flocking to the gold fields hoping to strike it rich. as day over the homes of our children are torn between gold. was ready for talk i was doing my

best get back to see which side will have the strongest appeal. welcome back to crossfire or all things are considered i'm peter lubell remind you we're discussing some real names. ok marcus goes yes which here's a talk about the strange case of natalee the more we learn or don't learn about this the story here about the alleged poisoning of mr noel me which is seen in the west as kind of the leader of the russian opposition to the political status quo i would like to preface but before i ask question is it he hardly has much of a following in russia which you know of course western media would not tell their

their audience as you know but it seems to be you know who are you who do you want to believe and i think this is where lee what what the origins of this strange case is about who are you going to believe the russian said that this gentleman left the country with no indication that he had been always and then german officials say just the opposite but at the same time not releasing to the public what kind of him from nightmare information they have that would prove that allegation so it's kind of poke political football and it's really more about something else but i want you to react so far. oh firstly taste and there is no political reason for the kremlin to syria or want to assassinate around i why because it's not how they sat in it in russian society is absolutely national i don't shine it's all russian society that is a luxury and alexina found it because he has to say by do you want to marry

a russian man and woman as being a fool is cullen all the united states or someone who wants to return to how it was during the 19th nineties by which i mean subservient city americans so he has no sand in whatsoever amongst ordinary russians secondly there is no economic reason for the kremlin so also assassinate neutrality because that is in necessarily jeopardize nor straight and the russians do not want anything to affect the no 3 why because a new strange constant she's a very significant source of revenue for the russian governments friendly you don't have to be a scientist to understand that if someone nice poisons way for a another agent for example not in shock and especially in the confines of an aircraft then pay who are around the person who is being poisoned on actually

current city contaminated yes in that case and not passengers adjacency him not carrying crew not the people who treated him well contaminates it's treat it differently had attended to it so you assassinate about it why own pace or would they have to laugh at a child journey knowing that as a species he's a cad i suppose and so the americans without a leg he has been poisoned by the kremlin it is absolutely prosperous nonsense there is no reason why the kremlin was once assassinated listen to our. asked and on the whole i would say this to the germans if they are so sussan that newfound me was some of the senses is poisonous around me by using nothing short and cool to see the evidence of the germans it goes to the kremlin wants us to not allow russian medical doctors and scientists to transition many of the german authorities

to share their medical and scientific findings with the russians is a simple as this statement if you have nothing to hide then you have no reasonable sense in all shapes finds and with a posse i know that isis is what we assume a dog to be accusations surrounding a found me it's possible possible all of our own going concern and vicious campaign against russia because russia is a superpower cannot it's the americans and the british it's lower yield george can he still spread out because it's been this we've been all script files again ok now let a lot of transparency here but let's get to what i think this is all about and marcus are meant to hear this in my opinion is my my conjecture is that this is just this one final attempt to. derail north street into this is what this is really about ok and it's putting the germans in

a very hard place because angela merkel has made it very and she's on the way out if she's made it very care very clear during this entire process that this is an economic legal agreement that has nothing to do with politics she said that and she pushed it based on those 2 principles now and really whatever is behind this gambit here once the germans to break there were and break their agreements ok which you know i don't like the american civil do it in the drop of a hat the germans are feel very uncomfortable about that and i think this is i think the pressure is not on the russians pressure is on the germans right now and george. well yes and there's obviously a very strong division of opinion within germany you have the german military and security establishment that is start really embed it in atlanta so they close to the americans. integrated within nato. and they have absolute

every interest in trying to destroy this don't strain to deal however you also have the german business community that signs to make a lot of money on this and they say it's important to remember this agreement this not stream to agreement was a german initiative it was a missile the russian initiative i mean was it was the jury had a michael i yeah yeah exactly so the way it's often presented in the media is as if somehow this is a favor for the russians knows the fate of the germans who have very serious problems with energy that made a complete mess of the energy policy and it is extremely expensive in germany so they really badly need this cheap source of natural gas so for the germans not to scrap this agreement would be a very devastating blow but the germans haven't done what the british did over the script all of them of the british were very skilled at mounting

a kind of global propaganda campaign that went to the u.n. security council and denounced the russians they organized this diplomatic expulsions and so on the germans haven't done that it's not maybe that the divisions are so deep in germany that are unable to do it you know maybe then the germans just simply are not convinced by the you know by the by the whole not only case but again it's same with belarus it's what's striking is the lack of the driving force as yet that the place of the script john is having yet mounted that kind of wild hysterical campaign that the british. every day that the moment they're losing the momentum if they if they don't continue or not and that's why i think that merkel's pragmatism will come through she's going to say but this is just an economic i mean we haven't even mentioned the consumers i mean that's what the german consumers as well ok since germany has moved away from coal and from

nucular and marcus you know one part of the story when we look at north stream 2 is that why do we have these underground. gas pipelines going through the baltic oh that's right because of what happened in ukraine ok i mean this is just so foreign policy chasing it's tail ok you know it what with the the illegal overthrow of the government in 2014 is if it slipped. ukraine strategic role in the energy equation of europe ok and so then the russians said look you stop stealing it this is not for you and ukraine would use it as a political ploy to play everyone off against everyone and the germans the if the russians said no we don't need to play this game that's your game ok it's more washington's game too and so we need to consider why these pipelines came into being in the 1st place because of the quagmire that was created in ukraine and

it doesn't serve europe's interest whatsoever go ahead marcus. i think we may serenely schussel and that germany heavily depends on russia for natural gas for its economy of course it's industry but i'm sorry for the scenario german man and woman asked him and i believe 65 percent of germany's gas actually comes from senator dodd his life should have been 3004 saying was has a sense of place sanctions on russia strangulation because it essentially only in the interests of the german economy if this eruption in a coup you would call us restraint by early. not in moscow and in twenty's france it is not in the interests of all generally known string to be russia's but of course the americans couldn't care less about a german economy and in fact there is quite a lot of safe if you're a company county because we want to hear you know the americans but i think

also as well the americans are acutely aware as so of course is the kremlin that the russian economy boss it is one of the largest in the quote is is not a die for us economy the russia russian economy is there were overwhelmingly rice on energy and defense exports and 10 states are at scotland no shame that is a way of the americans not the germans the americans trying to weaken the russian economy and ultimately trying to assist the c.n.c. the americans and the weaknesses of the russian economy assy american states and you in the late seventy's in the early 1980 s. the weaknesses of the soviet economy and supply one of the reasons why reagan mbox on a massive arms race was associated because he knew the soviets a convo don't hate others and he knew much about politics in general the people

around him year what weaken his forces the soviet union and that could bring the soviet union down and i think by trying to stop the word stream say that that is the way or the americans trying to bring down the russian economy because they know the russian economy is similar not to die for us one like the american economy or the british economy i can put it at the end of the day george this is you know and i think you know this this incident has really put into stark relief the importance of europe do they want to have energy independence or not do they want to have a say in their 8 in their energy sovereignty because in washington with love they have the europeans by. i'm actually a little by natural gas at astronomical prices ok when europe for the most part is living in austerity and you want to the whole point is to get affordable energy liquefied natural gas is a last 40 seconds go right so you get yet another price that the europeans have to pay all nagel in the west the alliance you're going to have expensive energy use in

your just like cheap energy but you will have expensive again just like ukraine you're going to have to hear a refugee flows economic crises and so on that's your price still a loyalty to nato in the west of the lines ok gentlemen that's all the time we have want to thank my guests and and budapest in london i want to thank our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time remember asta.

the world is driven by a dream shaped by one person with those great. snow day or thinks. we dare to ask.

god to make. it happen. we don't have legal grounds for doing a criminal case yes and that is why we asked for legal assistance from the german side. russia's foreign minister hits western allegations over the alleged poisoning of opposition figurehead a leg same a volley from repeated small schools the money for data from the early. calls for an internal dialogue in bellerose to end the post-election rescuing a meeting and saw with president bush and. so little we want the belorussians to handle their situation without any external assistance or pressure. and also ahead on the program today u.k. has gelled.