they was quite right to step in and say we don't want you saying this kind of stuff in fact we're not going to wait for the world to condemn you we're going to say we're going to punish you here and now you don't think that that was the correct procedure ok we only have a few seconds left just for both of you just to sum up what you're saying just start with you 20 seconds or by the situation louis hamdan and shouldn't have happened and will it happen in the future. is absolutely right and this focus on the exceptional and the moral equivalence between racism which is a global human consensus and these are the issues these you know doesn't doesn't stand up to most of the guys should have been conditioned should be thrown out not simply right same as anybody who would alter racist comments or should face exactly the same kind of. punishment and sanction so school will always play a part in politics and politics in school ls we have 20 seconds on this occasion lewis hamilton sentiments i think were ok but as

a broader principle i glad formula one stepped in because at a later stage another driver might say something completely different ok thank you both there very interesting debate enjoyed thought ellis cashmore on re professor of sociology at austin university in the u.k. lead jasper social activist former policy advisor on equality to the mayor of london thank you. or great program take going in moments here in order to find out what's showing wherever you are today up to the shortest of breaks by for naught. hello and welcome to cross talk where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle forced regime change playbook and why it is not and will not work and there was

also the no bombing saga benefits from this very strange episode. to discuss this i'm joined by my guest marcus papadopoulos in london he's editor of politics 1st magazine and in budapest we cross to jordan samuel he is author of bombs for peace nato's humanitarian war on yugoslavia are across up rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate when you let me start with george and george let's start with the big everest story because the pira story looks like it's kind of morphing into the venezuelan story of the baltics ok because we have this pretend or recognized from. from lithuania i think it is this moment that they can all skya that she is the

president in exile right now are they pulling a white go here because i seriously doubt this would be happening in my own peo had made a phone call go ahead george. well a.o.l. trying to pull a white dove but of course the why don't case turned out to be a complete fiasco. and it's clear that the trump administration isn't terribly happy with the policy that it got stuck with thanks to the pressure from former national security advisor john bolton so i have my doubts that they go to political i go over this. because if you're going to give them. is notable for all the absence of pressure from the united states and i say that in actually taking a rather reckless an approach towards this and without pressure from the americans . i don't think this is going to go very far and i think it's so there's already

indications that look at shank 0 feels very confident of himself and he's being his usual difficult self with with the russians feeling rather confident that the e.c. at the say you know mark is a i tend to agree with george and on top of it a look at chez khamenei made it very public particularly to to rushing to television stations that he isn't least rhetorically. officially open to some kind of transition though within the bounds of russian law that's that indicates to me that he's learned the lesson that he can stay but he has to start thinking of an exit here what are your thoughts marcus let's see. how something over the last few weeks what we have to say here about very soon isn't a stance by the west to her against syria it's for the west coast resolution v.s.e. ease and his hands to screw against some of its presence and

a use in the school a serious one a soul must say of course they were goes back many examples all. so you can color revelations jujitsu falsehood and free ukraine seashells on and for his songs he shouts under fire and most recently of all ukraine's few files and for change but these headed to see if true a better choice was always going to fail why because the well meaning we're sure saved the belorussian population we've gotten cells as possible of the russian well they see themselves as possibly lawson family secondly. we should quit more accurately. ease the facts or province of the russian federation and we have seen that seeing the recent times because the of russian

ministry in tandem with about russia's military has announced see you loose dispose as wish poland's ukraine and about $0.06 to prevent infiltrates is from coming in for a necessary so on those countries and also russian special services working alongside russian special services have now identified asian protocol consumers all the west in most notably of course me now the real question is or should he not will see isn't always going to what was he going to succeed and no what it has now done it is shredded for and russia's position over lucas shankara because i did not change litter same color then the union states all for gosh i. wish rules which was formulated between yatsenyuk allocation time in the late nineties would have come into being by now look ish and co has so we get

a sense crease and came to the helm and russia because look at shaker wants to be a presence of the union sites now that looks shanghai or has low. moderately and without precedent. for assistance in france and that now appears it shows in every leisure each of the kremlin to exercise for christianity so i actually believe peace that innocent person play for the west has actually placed appearance will know what i believe the material i say shouldn't sooner go off and lay some of the union states well george but that's the fly in the ointment here i mean and it's one of the things that i get very frustrated with looking at the west your narrative was because it's not about lucas it's about the place that we know is be able to spell russia and its relationship with russia and as marcus quite correctly and in great detail i discuss this is a this is

a single state ok at this point here and the problem has been is that it's been looked at shank unwilling to implement every single phase in stage of that that he signed up to and so could this is the this is the unreported narrative that what's going on in india rules because it's it is kind of a lucas shango problem but for very different reasons go ahead yes that's right. there the policy before the election which was a hit by the e.u. and the united states was to try to foster a snipe division between. belarus and russia as possible and that made a certain amount of geo strategic sense whatever it is makes life difficult for the russians nato the united states regards as a good thing buton as many headaches this possible but by overplaying their hand in

belarus as moch as quite rightly point out. they have now strengthened the the bond between russia and belarus and you're getting them. russia now that the europeans are sensing the food of their policy and have trying to draw back because i do think it's striking that the whole of this propaganda on behalf of. you kind of scale and having all these attractive women around and over the propaganda to try to get oh this is the belarus that we want to recognize this is a legitimate government of belarus that's failed that's that's gone nowhere so it looks to me like we may be heading to was the pre-election policy of well let's try to foster division but i think that's extremely unlikely to fail i think that i think that a train that left the station speaking about division that means if you look at the reaction of the european union member states it's the whole quite go scenario is it's really been given

a cold shoulder because you know we're not going to go through this again i think we also have to point out is that the european union as a whole has ukraine i mean look at what the resources and. and time they put into ukraine and well they kind of got a you know a milk toast version of what they wanted ok because this is the fundamental reforms that ukraine needs is not happening right now and again just that the billions and billions of euros that went nowhere i personally think and get so marcus imas how much do you think that plays into this kind of picked up and give me some part of the europeans about this regime change playbook. well here again is huge is nationally i was rifle to the united states in economic times but also malaysia the european union is a strategic friends and i i so you know i have to say see if we can science that

russians and takes us i should amend to some ounce of influence over the e.u. policy by can i use science to begin. also you found in food saying when america place sanctions on the russian federation because of the crisis in ukraine which incidentally america was also for off the european union. by germany was very apprehensive about wanting to place sanctions on the russian they did resist but in the end of the year being union it caved into the pressure to phone the united states and i think if we fast forward to 20 train say what we've seen in recent times in better or worse yes the european union has says he player go in that it's simply the case that whole and in the 06 states which are very dangerous countries for russian national security actually facilitated 6. 100 seats career in the country well i think olson italy the hand washington is responsible for what we

have seen in belarus and i think the americans are actually emboldened by that a triumph in ukraine because yes ross analysis money can't be cold it's ukraine and loss i mean ukraine is one of the most corrupt countries in the us and and it has been ever since it came independence in late 990 but nonetheless ukraine as we talk now is integrated and if the west has ukraine is the greatest. policy challenge to the kremlin so i think the americans have the same bones and by their success in ukraine they obviously did not do their homework so sufficient enough to understand that belarus is not you try and have better risk as i said the facts are a province of the russian federation or you can put it it's a russian protectorates you know target market you see it washington doesn't do its

own mortgage they that's kind of an understatement because they screw up every step of the way here i think you're right marcus i mean you know washington is in bold but i think in bold in the sets. that you can quit it created a quagmire ok where he you know russia has to take the burden here if it's not a success and a nominal way it's like oh he screwed up that neighborhood it makes the neighborhood unstable that's a victory for us which is a very cynical foreign policy go ahead george yes now that you've hit the nail on the head that peter that's exactly what the american think it's. not. the way goes in by the us the americans are saying well let's try out because it's a headache for the europeans because it's right there on their border it's a headache for the russians. and it's a left right to say yeah ok you know what's the solution more america because all they say shows that the europeans are unable to sort out their own problems so he

was and it's the same you know you see the same scenario played out in iraq and syria and libya and say ok if they all had a not oust. but what is do is they then you it in in all these cases you capture elites in specific countries ok and they even toward it within their own in their own country and then within the union you're ok gentlemen to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break and your discussion and some real news stay with arkie. analysis so wrong. but i'll. just all. well want to see how this all comes down to. and it. was. when some people find themselves well the party. system the common ground.

a new gold rush is underway in ghana thousands of ill equipped workers are flocking to the gold fields hoping to strike it rich here is a good. day over the children are torn between gold and education from me was very poor i thought i was doing my best to get back to school which side will have the strongest appeal. join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and i'll be speaking to guest of the world of politics or business i'm show business i'll see you then. welcome back to crossed up work all things considered i'm peter lubell remind you

we're discussing some real names. ok marcus this goes a switch gears and talk about the strange case of natalee meaning the more we learn or don't learn about this the story here about the alleged poisoning of mr noel me which is seen in the west as kind of the leader of the russian opposition to the political status quo i would like to preface by before i asked the question is that he hardly has much of a following in russia which you know of course western media would not tell their their audience as you know but it seems to be you know who are you who do you want to believe and i think this is where lee what what the the origins of this strange case is about who are you going to believe the russian said that this gentleman left the country with no indication that he had been poisoned and then german

officials say just the opposite but at the same time not releasing to the public what kind of them from nightmare information they have that would prove that allegation so it's kind of a political football and it's really more about something else but i want you to react so far ahead. oh firstly taste and is not a political reason for the kremlin to syria or want to assassinate around i why because it's not how they stand in it in russian society is absolutely national trends all russian society that is a luxury and alexina found it because he has to say but do you want to marry a russian man and woman as being a fool is cullen all the united states or someone who wants to return to how it was during the 1990s by which i mean some being city americans so he has no sand in

will so are amongst ordinary russians secondly there is no economic reason for the kremlin so also assassinate me because that was in necessarily jeopardize nor straight and the russians do not want anything to affect no strain why because a new strange comes to she's a very significant source of revenue for the russian governments friendly you don't have to be a scientist to understand that if someone sees poisons where for a nerve agent for example not in shock and especially in the confines of an aircraft then people who are around the person who is being poisoned on actually current city contaminated yes in that case and not passengers adjacent to him not carrying crew not the people who treated him well contaminates it. treat it differently had a tendency so you assassinate about a why only pacer would they have to laugh at

a child journey knowing that for safety issues he can i suppose into the americans without a leg he has been poisoned by the friendly it is absolutely prosperous nonsense there is no reason why the kremlin was once assassinated. found he asked and i will say this to the germans if they are so sussan that newfound me was some of the senses is poisonous around me by using nothing short and cool to see the evidence of the germans it goes to the kremlin wants us not allow russian medical doctors and scientists to transition many of the german authorities to share their medical and scientific findings wish the russians it's a simple as the states if you have nothing to hide then you have no reasonable sense and all share your finds and with a posse i know that isis warrior senior dog to be accusations surrounding

a found he is possible possible all alone going concern and vicious campaign against russia because russia is a superpower cannot it's the americans and the british is lower yield george can he still spread out because it's been this way that all script files again ok let a lot of transparency here but let's get to what i think this is all about and markets are meant here this in my opinion is my my conjecture is that this is just this one final attempt to. derail north stream to this is what this is really about ok and it's putting the germans in a very hard place because angela merkel has made it very and she's on the way out she's made it very care very clear during this entire process that this is an economic legal agreement this has nothing to do with politics she said that and she pushed it based on those 2 principles now and really whatever is behind this gambit

here once the germans to break there were and break their agreements ok which you know i don't like the american civil do it in the drop of a hat the germans are feel very uncomfortable about that and i think this is i think the pressure is not on the russians pressure is on the germans right now go ahead george. well yes and there's obviously a very strong division of opinion within germany you have the german military and security establishment that is start really embed it in atlanta so they close to the americans. integrated within nato. and they have absolute every interest in trying to destroy this though it's strange to deal however you also have the german business community that stands to make a lot of money on this and they say it's important to remember this agreement this not stream to agreement was a german initiative it was russia was

a russian initiative i mean was it was the journey had a michael i yeah yeah exactly so the way it's often presented in the media is as if somehow this is a favor for the russians knows the fate of the germans who have very serious problems with energy that made a complete mess of the end if you follow so and it is extremely expensive in germany so they really badly need this cheap source of natural gas so for the germans not to scrap this agreement would be a very devastating blow but the germans haven't done what the british did over the script all of them of the british were very skilled at mounting a kind of global propaganda campaign that went to the u.n. security council and denounced the russians they organized this diplomatic expulsions and so on the germans haven't done that it's not maybe that the divisions are so deep in germany that are unable to do it maybe then the germans

just simply are not convinced by the you know by the by the whole not only case but again it's same with belarus it's that what's striking is the lack of the driving force as yet that took place of the script outside johns haven't yet mounted that kind of wild hysterical campaign that the british. every day that the moment they're losing the momentum if they if they don't continue or not and that's why i think that merkel's pragmatism will come through she's going to say but this is just an economic i mean we haven't even mentioned the consumers i mean that's a boon for german consumers as well ok since germany has moved away from coal and from nucular and marcus you know one part of the story when we look at north stream too is that why do we have these underground. gas pipelines going through the baltic oh that's right because of what happened in ukraine ok i mean this is just

so foreign policy chasing it's tail ok you know it what with the the illegal overthrow of the government in 2014 is if it slipped. ukraine's strategic role in the energy equation of europe ok and so then the russians said look you stop stealing it this is not for you and ukraine would use it as a political ploy to play everyone off against everyone and the germans the if the russians said no we don't need to play this game that's your game ok it's more washington's game too and so we need to consider why do these pipelines came into being in the 1st place because the quagmire that was created in ukraine and then it doesn't serve europe's interest whatsoever go ahead marcus. i think we may serenely schussel and that germany heavily depends on russia for natural gas in the freezer economy of course it's industry but i'm sorry for the

scenario german man and woman asked him and i believe 65 percent of germany's gas actually comes from sort of advice like germany and $3004.00 change was has a sense of place sanctions on russia strangulation because it essentially only in the interests of the german economy of france is the only option in a coup de witt's highest by early. not in moscow and in twenty's france it is not in the interests all generally known string to somebody. but of course the americans couldn't care less about the german economy and in fact there's quite a lot to say they generally call many county because we want to be. the americans but i think also as well the americans are acutely aware and so of course it's the kremlin that the russian economy and boss it is one of the largest in the quote is is not a die for us economy the russia russian economy is there were overwhelmingly by

stalin entity and defense exports and tendency to 0 at scotland no shame to that is the way of the americans not the germans the americans trying to weaken the russian economy and ultimately trying to assist the c.n.c. the americans know what the weaknesses of the russian economy assy american states and you're in the late seventy's in the early 1980 s. the weaknesses of the soviet economy and supply one of the reasons why reagan mbox on a massive arms race was associated because he knew the soviets a convo don't hate others and he knew much about politics in general the people around him year what weakness was the soviet union and that could bring the soviet union down and i think by trying to stop the one strain saying that that is the way or the americans trying to bring down the russian economy because they know the russian economy is still not a diet for us one like the american economy or the british economy i can put it at

the end of the day george this is you know and i think you know this this incident has really put into stark relief the importance of europe do they want to have energy independence or not do they want to have a say in their 8 in their energy sovereignty because in washington with love they have the europeans by. and actually a little by natural gas at astronomical prices ok when europe for the most part is living in us territory and you want to the whole point is to get affordable energy liquefied natural gas is a blast 40 seconds go right so yet it's yet another price that the europeans have to pay all major oil in the west the alliance you're going to have expensive energy use in your interest not cheap energy but you will have expensive to get just like ukraine you're going to have to hit a refugee flows economic crises and so on that's your price still

a loyalty to nato in the western alliance ok gentlemen that's all the time we have i want to thank my guests and in budapest and london i want to thank our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time remember. was the. woman in with the with opposed to some of this there were. some from the federal law saying all of this before. last time we chased. each one of them carrying 20 kilos 'd of drugs. forced a fence down. they just kept going. it's

a very we have made the money coming they more even though this is the way. they like it will be i don't see a porno maybe they'll get a record. high well beyond a great right cost something. now walk. around. the world is driven by a dream shaped by one person.

thinks. we dare to ask. we don't have legal grounds for the criminal case and that is why we are asked for legal assistance from the german side russia's foreign minister hits. like ations over the alleged poisoning of opposition a figurehead a legacy. no repeat small school boy data from early. on the program putin calls for internal dialogue to end the post-election of the wrist during a meeting in sort of president. point so we want to build the russians to handle their situation without any external assistance or pressure. on the u.k. balance gatherings of more than 6 people to slow.