there is clear evidence voters are attracted to the message of not interventionism and are very wary of foreign wars this most certainly helps trump in 2016 but his time in office is spotty at best now joe biden appears to embrace the same foreign policies as bush and obama i guess nothing really will undo mentally change. cross knocking forever wars i'm joined by my guest laura fink in san diego she is the founder and c.e.o. of rebel communications as well as a democratic strategist and in new york we crossed the line our he is a legal and media analyst i crossed up rules in effect that means you can jump any time you want and i also appreciate how it was going to san diego a laura joe biden the presidential candidate for the democrats he had an interview with the news outlets are stars and stripes and he made it very clear that he would

continue the foreign wars in the middle east should strips would remain there he had doesn't contemplate any kind of cuts in defense spending and at the same time we have like the eurasia group foundation which is kind of in the sec it's a very centrist and they have research then to be overwhelmingly the public supports less militarization of foreign policy and decrease in military spending and are on the side of ending these forever wars why is joe sticking to the bush obama agenda go ahead well i think that it's the white the american people want is probably in line with like joe biden wants no one wants to be an endless wars apennine gauge man is sometimes necessary and you know everyone would last you know in the defense budget after 19 years it's the worth it how well look i think you know that look we can we can just you know different decisions made by different press. events and i would say that there is

a diversity of the last to be among the different presidents specially names but i will say we're talking globally each about engagement versus isolation as also mentally this is about fomenting and trying to encourage peace in a very particular way and very tricky way and i think it's i think it's challenges and that doesn't mean just in that you know military engagement means diplomatic engagement needs economic engagement it means figuring out how to balance the tools an arch will catch to try to create stability and peace around the world and also not only that is the american interest so i think that when we reduce these arguments into something about do or not do this is it's you know yoda and starwars this is this is a complicated i have foreign policy you know discussion and i think we have to take it case by case but but you've got you can but make a play get out but it's a difference with all due respect i think the american people are tired of it's complicated ok that's why we need leadership and i don't think president trump has

done a very good job in this respect to go to lima why is that the binary isolationism interventionism i see that all the time it's a false argument well i'm i'm still trying to get over there ocean of fomenting peace i love that notion of we're going to do we're going to enrage people we're going to to increase the courage of the vortex for peace by by engaging our military to foment peace we are forgetting the fame and if you will of the essence of this issue and that is simply this what is our mission nobody is against military involvement military action defending our allies but the idea that our of being there does something magical to keep our enemies and why we need to know why are we there look i don't want to go deep state police state intel's age shadow government ruling class but this is the military industrial complex. has

been a part of the american political system irrespective of party that's what this is this is something to do with beach nobody can explain what we're even doing in afghanistan yet if you ask people it had something remotely to do with 911 and that said there is nothing un-american by demanding that we have a clear and cogent and limpid system of protocol and a message and a mission and that's it you know lowering it it seems to me because if we quit you know campaigning as campaigning promises or promises ok we're all political junkies here but it seems to me that no matter what a candidate says maybe with the exception of all of the gabbert which the democrats dismissed quite quickly. and i feel a very unfairly is it doesn't really matter what your political stripe is the permanent state or what people call the deep state they're just going to keep calling the shots because you know i'll give trump credit for at least trying to

get out of his quagmire ours but the deep state or the permanent bureaucracy constantly blocks don't you think that's going to happen to biden to go ahead well i'm not going to disagree that the military industrial complex is tower fall but they do i think that they are calling the shots alternately i think that's a tin hat conspiracy theory accent look that. the globe all the gloves the distribution of global power is something that no single president can ultimately change but the u.s. has a responsibility as a leader to unite our allies and to try to ensure that we have because ultimately he's helped us in and it protects our american security and you know you cannot let go of the military option entirely i think that's naive i think you humble and i don't disagree no 100 is employing a minute i didn't say that i didn't say but ok again those it's a false binary call and i don't want to engage on the false binary. and i'm just

telling you what i'm hearing here when i say that there's this conspiracy that the military deep state is is directing and calling the shots i will say best donald trump is making big moves but the impact of those moves does not seem to be beneficial unilaterally removing troops from situations the for ensuring that there is debility and a vacuum is not created also met late doesn't do any good us any good it can be a great talking point so they can petri out but we will after this and take out a sound withdrawal and the deal with the taliban will we see the afghan government i have a more stable in gauge went well we see the people's life we could see the u.s. is that the american people's responsibility to maintain peace in afghanistan why what is why is the united states in syria why it's even legal under international law it was not invited there and this is not about it i'm sorry it's protecting its oil it's not that it's not america's oil to protect ok legacy lesley's my point

here no one likes to talk about these things are very inconvenient you know they were present sort of for peace think it keeps the civil war going on but here you're arguing against it without ad out without advocating for a solution so i don't know if you know you're saying if you did everybody who should it's very simple if you get out then the parties on the ground will have to figure out how it's i think it's how do you get out maintain no good you're on the airplane and you get out no doubt if this is ridiculous see this is an argument to see if i do this all it's not to result in the kick the can or i tell you what if you get out there the full time. well 1st i love whenever something is promoted that is true that has been spoken of since eisenhower is valedictory the military industrial complex when you don't know what to say with all due respect to to our

guest some measure of the facts coming my way or so. you bring up this this fact we need trope about conspiracy theories just become the climate change whatever you don't know what to do why are there fires climate change now if you want to just say you don't believe in climate change either just to be clear i believe in climate change i believe in weather and the sun but i do not believe in an anthropogenic cause a genre. no never the how is seen none of the house in maximum thermals anybody who really knows anything about this when are you anyway aside from that because we're not going to do battle of the bunkers and you're already have a big problem i don't believe they get bigger ready but yours i think look no further than a whoa look no further than the atlantic council look no further than people trained to read joe old cold war russo folding trucks there is a murder sure that is going on in the idea let's just go back to afghanistan where

people have this this is they create this fantasy that by our being there we're teaching villagers to drill for well means or something just so happens in afghanistan is the saudi arabia of libya and every conceivable precious metal that you can imagine that a friend of mine one time said what would have been the chances of our invading iraq if their main export had been progress we have to stop repeating these wonderful tropes and throw isn't about how they're defending the world and somehow maintaining peace but here's a question you asked me if we were to leave let's just next year or less you say we just sat right there is our syria figured out why. what happened how what our oh and our in the united states how our or anybody else's national security because it's just so happens there are some pipe or here it's about gaps it's about getting

straight to the mediterranean and rusty he reminding us that the frank capra wonderful idea is you know we're going to spread liberty or never i mean this is your 2020 where we're past. ok well you know how big laurie but it seems to me i mean we have to remember what obama's watch was the catastrophe in libya and i see the same kind of intimacy susan rice a whole ring around joe biden i see samantha power her ring around actually they both spoke at the the r. and c. i mean you want it with people with resumes like that should would you would you be happy to see them in a biden ministration well listen i'm just i'd like to place it on basketball that some of the things that have been sent here ultimately you know that there is a binary being advanced by lionel here and it's that being involved no good can come of it you want to talk about syria for a minute let's talk about syria for a minute there were the complete absence of the u.s. presidents presidents leaves room for russia and turkey to gain

a foothold in the middle east it creates instability in the middle east and it leaves a pathway to peace as as a shimmer existence and this is as absolutely ridiculous to say that there is no impact when you remove american troops now it isn't an ideal situation you're be advocating for that again you know why is this important here but i don't hear any of that over here all the while you decry this binary that doesn't exist so as american presence in syria bringing about peace now what it does is it doesn't allow the government to rebuild ok i mean i mean the u.s. government continues to say action syria after the u.s. lost its last there and its process is let me do you a seat is easy and i don't croak unsalted really not a credit it's all in every case and i just allow them places you know foreign governments that are adversaries of the united states russia being one of them turkey being one of them just taking over the power and and i'm leaving a power vacuum everywhere why do you say you are lacking is that where it sounds

right it would actually make people sit down and talk instead of funding terrorist groups in the middle east you know if you know if saudi arabia is a close ally be united states. certainly not when saudi arabia is is exploiting the most noxious ideology can possibly conceive i'm glad he let me know you don't know me or end up ok know that man is a want to take to the region would have to figure it out here ok and then about the military i'm just saying why is this in the american interest to be in afghanistan in syria and iraq when the iraqi government and people want us to leave how can we help the iraqi people and nothing all right on this point i have to go to a hard break i'm like i'm trying not to be rude here oh no we don't when we return we'll continue our discussion on a river war say. was

a pandemic no certainly no blood is just blood into nationalities. has emerged we told the truth be we don't look like seeing the whole world needs to be. judged as coming every crisis so. we can do better we should know better. everyone is contributing each of their own way but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever the challenges created with the response has been so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we are in it together.

just before. last time we chased. each one of them carrying 20 kilos 'd of drugs. first offense. they just stepped. into the fray and we have made the money. they have. i don't know maybe they'll get a. break right. now

more. welcome back to cross we're all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing forever war. ok laura you and i were having quite a heated discussion before we went to the break i think i owe you a time to reply i'm going to be here let me just say i don't know where to start because you just keep tossing in countries the game but ultimately we have to go.

under. the other instruments that we're talking about here which is the erosion of the diplomatic corps because this isn't entirely a military solution this is an economic solution that needs to be foments and with the instrument about solution being that will matter work you need to have diplomats in gauging and you also need to have alliances i mean america is at its strongest when we have our allies moving forward when we're at the center of these negotiations when we're working to use our influence and pride so that we can defend our economic interests and ultimately promote democracy because we know that liberal democracies don't fight with one another it's only by words that when martin. why doesn't he just let me finish one sentence and that would be great you didn't interrupt lionel but you got sure you will at some point but liberal democracies don't fight with one another so we should be advancing peace and that you may say that that's naive but that should be the ultimate goal with these sort of moves and that so you're not going to agree with me even on the diplomatic you have no right in the cloud and the votes are here and our lives so we'll be democratic ok that is i didn't say that i didn't say or i did was say anything

let it go ahead jim. can you do that you went back in time and took somebody who let's see right around the vietnam era brought them back listen to this conversation and ask. which one do you think of those people talking right now is the democrat who's a republican or if you would say well this this very very well spoken woman i think is she must be she's a hardliner she's a hockey she's a republican so where are you sending about. reading him arguments we did in via not we never learn to shower him back you know we have to go there let me explain you one thing that you will never hear joe my flavor of honor or speak through his wisdom just crept into you will never hear the country china or.

mention anything we will continue with the intro zooming team over russian or in this room so old thinking kremlin baiting because dad has been the theme from the get go so the idea is simply that. the democratic party has sold out to whatever you want to call another conspiracy here who is a conspiracy in fact of the people who have won this country for ever and that is you want to come the military industrial complex whatever joe biden is a manchurian candidate a man who does not know where he is a man who was basically changed who were radiator in a root cellar somewhere was going to be some planted within 2 to 3 months kamel harris if they're successful is going to be put in their ultimate mid cherry mentor in canada who will make the reclaiming look like ramsey clark now we can pretend all we wanted we can use terms of ongoing unit being strong but this is about

giving the checkbook to the people who have the. this country doesn't radio you're not can operate at all you're not you're going to not me that i can't that's ok can i know you're just did so dump it well here is the day you can do that i don't know how you don't just drive out of the temple have i don't know understand how anybody yet that we want to talk about sign us joe biden is absolutely psyched about china now he's against your he added let's get your place by kamel i hear i mean i would you miss your new alliance or write novels that would keep me up at night and bigger rated maybe we can get you a movie you don't we're not seeing right here isn't that has no business getting you know guy friends who are going to policy look me in the eye and look at kerry in the eye and tell me that nobody going to turn to any of your style no democratic operatives has the subject know when is common my hair is going to replaced you know by tell me that has not been address tell me they have me i have any white it

ever has not talked about the vice president's fitness to lead in the advent of the president we talked about it was already very nice residence and don it's not something you give me another problem you know what i said you are not you know if you talk about 10 well i hope you'd tell me that you honestly would bet any amount of money that joe biden could continue in his term if elected you are then as nice a man you really believe. we're going pretty far afield here ok i want to stay with the foreign policy or. laura what did you think of obama's foreign policy because it looks like that is going to be an echo about in potential biden in ministration so give us a scorecard for obama how long have you got i mean and listen i think it's complicated why don't we pick an area if you could narrow your question i'd happily answer that i think you know but your to do i could say libya i think it's even and

i well you know look it was the perfect absolutely not do i think we need. cell rejection use of diplomatic aims use of an economic investments use of sanctions appropriately and and you know i don't think that he was a military interventionist need we didn't go to a broad scale and were caught i mean left was 7 so yeah i think he was nobody but his attempts to try to move troops to where he could certainly happen so i you know this is a i but i understand you have a completely different version of history about mosul you know so i don't i don't think i could have you know i'm shocked not just i voted version of it ok i think i said to you prior to this recording is that i'm equally hard on the democrats and the republicans equally hard on obama and on donald trump because i'm more interested in nonintervention and i'm very strongly end type of war and i think a lot of miss opportunities we have experienced there and it happens under all it

ministrations and that's why i go back to what i said earlier is that it doesn't really matter who is president because you're going to have a permanent democracy then min's and that the only hills and people like that that say the interagency consensus well i didn't vote for that you didn't in line will didn't ok and it seems to me and i will agree with what i know maybe i don't have the same kind of saurus delivery that lionel does but you know i'm a little bit worried about the guy you know if he got all his marbles because i see these people surrounding him and these people are bad people they made bad foreign policy decisions and they're still around that i mean listen you can't even if you say that you're against republicans and democrats equally but you only named the obama administration so it sounds like you guys the obama administration official with the ranee i don't think i was saying you know it was a good deal is a good diplomatic deal and i thought the obama administration for not taking that

as a starting point is start stabilizing the middle east it was a great opportunity to do that and i think truck was a fool to walk away from it so there i give you a good example. this and i didn't like the iraq you know and that's what obama and to don't give kudos of president obama he was rather are reluctant to do what his military advisors told him and the hawks regarding syria he could have done a lot more so he wasn't completely all in but let me just explain to me you are suggesting that we're going to abandon diplomatic negotiations had bangs who ever we're talking about military let me didn't let me be very basic how do we explain to the war and now we're in all of these bases all over the world now i know this may be un-american to say that i give me i'm going to do i do not read about his own what gives the united states

a right to go in and say we are going to tell country who they can speak with we're making deals is saudi arabia we have with our diplomatic schizophrenia is imperceptible to most people how does how do we tell anybody else you deal with this and by the way since we're so worried about the stability of the middle east did you hear peter and you hear a lot this notion of the kompany of cudos it was a wreck in terms of president regarding what's happening in the middle east not a word nothing it's just because it was a photo op i mean because it was a photo op that is not enough. to say that 35. it's not so bad how do you know you've just you've just you've just lost me company that's are just lucio day just as you know i don't think i was ever you cannot be serious you cannot know. honestly come on anybody can afford and say you back

was photo walk do i have to explain to you they history oh i know your his you know it sounds like you know you're a member. more and i know that you are and right now here we're rapidly rapidly running out of time here but i mean. don't you see this kind of continuing again kind of being non partisan here this continue being go back to george bush sr all the way to the present and it doesn't really if i'm very frustrated you know you know there's plenty of data prototypically from the 2016 election that people are very against these wars these forever wars and trump talks about being against that but you know what he's president and he's and he's not succeeding under his watch ok and tells me something either is something is wrong with him or most likely or in addition to is that the permanent bureaucracy this is what we do for a living you know we have the we have these arms producers we have 5000 bureaucrats

in nato that need to keep their careers a very lucrative ones at that and all these alliances well it's just really good for the arms producers i mean that's a logic that is irrefutable it's just good business but it's bad for security go ahead so i just just to get its position me as odd as like quite frankly really it's i don't hear that i like oh yeah that. ever but oh i am terribly so i just really do think that we can oversimplify best and i feel like this conversation has been through something reduction as in that way where we can resemble i did say intervention when i. had only rejection she was already nastier oversimplification you've used every echo chamber troll since you like you have well. good response and he has because i'm responding to

a question that intervention or not intervention you can take out your thighs and beat you over the head with it but it does not mean your sentence you can eat it at once and the you sure that's not where my so you can think it cost me a litle and. you are right the ones who are it for this argument that's not what we're talking about you are talking about something else while you are creating i will give you no you're not going to act are action i'm still reacting to fomenting peace by god we're going to deliver peace in them we're going to do it because that's what we your that's our america i can't believe that and by the way ok well actually it's a purse time in 10 years and no oh no i have no idea how to end this program but other than saying thank you laura i thank you lining for joining us here and i want to thank our viewers watching us here argue see you next i remember.

too that the vote really key sneer those who really can show you. take these just be suitably. proud that i suppose you noticed us they are so. you know none of us to be in a bow episodes didn't go to see she's sick you. think you sneer during your force where you could being a must understood if not thoughts about spirits i didn't do it was more sinister experiment done in the. state via google which. shows the stress of school issuance for you to post to a post to move to willow's rest of the. social story kick your butt is.

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