to move to see is driven domestically known internationally seen efforts by international organizations and governments to promote democracy in countries like iraq afghanistan we see how difficult it is also with us to be reduced to mystically because otherwise international actors need to be in a country 24 seventh's to make it sustainable so any country in the world that's built to sustain a good democracy is domestic sometimes of its national health mystically. time after time saying we're going underground as u.s.

secretary of state and former cia boss michael i'm pale meets i've been doing a mock as president of alleged narco state colombia as he wraps up a latin american tour still feeling the shock waves of successive u.s. interventions coming up on the show 9 years after the formation of a un backed transitional government in libya in the wake of a nato war that devastated africa's richest per capita nation what hope is there for a country facing political turmoil civil war and now a global pandemic we all saw the acting special representative and head of the u.n. support mission in libya and we investigate the painted divergent new film that explores the naked brutality faced by children in war that's causing apparently mass walkouts and film festivals from venice to toronto with one of its lead star of the killing fields julian sands told us of all coming up in today's going on the ground but 1st after monday's special episode with columbia university's professor jeffrey sachs of the un's sustainable development network solution on the ground what a rebuttal from geoffrey wilson author of the book. jeffrey sachs the strange case

of dr shaw can mr aid in the interview professor sachs deny the quote i referred to in which he allegedly described himself as a free market idealogue jeffy wilson told us sex did say that and he's in print doing so the quote is taken from the transcript of a keynote speech he gave an international conference of neo liberal policy makers how did in 1903 when he was still an economic advisor to yeltsin and when russia was still in the depths of the crisis brought about in large part by a shock therapy reforms he used to speech to make the case for international financial assistance for russia which he argued was necessary to ensure that his free market reforms were not reversed in the face of growing popular opposition or one point he told his audience for another speech delivered to the heritage foundation an influential neo liberal think tank it is in this context he made this claim to being a free market idea look. you can reject the wilson's full statement online and you can watch the interview we did with professor jeffrey sachs on our you tube channel

well one country that arguably has been destroyed by western intervention is libya 9 years since britain's david cameron and u.k. warplanes supported by a compliant media areally bombarded what was africa's richest per capita country it is a catastrophe civil war proxy war coronavirus islam is tara from syria that alone the drowning of those seeking asylum only this week and now compounded by bitter political strife in tripoli's u.n. backed government joining me now via skype from rome is acting special representative and head of the united nations support mission in libya 70 turco williams 70 we're going to going underground before i ask anything about the political situation obviously people are going to want to know how coronavirus is obviously impacting hard on britain when the highest per capita or death rate how is it affecting libya which is obviously the subject of civil strife and a proxy war well the coronavirus situation in libya is quite so worrying you know we we believe that it is styrene out of control in

a country the number of confirmed cases is close to or at 25000 today which over something like a weapon 1000 cases are active and there are nearly 400 deaths that have been recorded houser hungary figures how are they getting the figures given that it's libya is itself divided into 2 or 3 countries i'm not sure defacto so we are so that the figures are produced you know by the authorities w.h.o. works across the country it is you're right there are divided institutions but w.h.o. is a lead said a nationwide response and liaises directly with the different institutions the ministries of health and their national committee that is in charge of the coping response but you're right i mean we do believe that. the pandemic in terms of the numbers is there it is underestimated and this is because there are also

things like there are persistent shortages in testing capabilities of course you know the health care system has been devastated over the last 9 years beset by you know conflict you know infrastructure deterioration and that has meant that you know it's sort of helps crippled the response the humanitarian agencies are working in these very sort of difficult circumstances we also of course salute the very courageous libyan health care workers who are on the front line. and and and you know the focus needs to be on prevention and and also in terms of frankly the government response east and west you know ensuring that the funding that has been allocated you know goes goes through the right channels and into the health care system well post conflict funding. is always being no god

traversal i mean in libya had one of the best health care systems in the world certainly the best in africa under gadhafi what is the situation in libya 9 years after david cameron was telling us here in britain that this was a victory that nato had secured to overthrow the good afy government i mean explain how there's a west and an east and how there may be elections and why the prime minister might be a resigning right so i mean it's no secret that libya experienced incredible fragmentation following the revolution and fragmentation chaos and division. and sort of a continuing series of wars and conflict and unfortunately. unabated blatant for. an interference in the country and so. it has been a real surprise foreign interference in by britain in the country and even foreign

interference after the aerial bombardment of libya by britain yes there is there is you know foreign intervention has been a theme so it in and it unfortunately continues to this day now where where are we given you know the the past 9 years what are we looking at now. we are looking at a country that where that where the situation is just not sustain the military options has been used in libya and it hasn't worked quite clearly. 5 there is no one party that can militarily conquer libya and assumed power through the gut. the economic tool is not working or oil blockades do not work they only lead to increasing immiseration of the population and that's what we're seeing now so it is not therefore very surprising that libyans are going to the streets in the midst of

a global pandemic to express their frustrations to to demonstrate against you know institutions and governments that are simply not delivering services not not providing for their citizens so he was in fact to mention not to mention the rampant sort of corruption so this princess to you know we've tried so the military tools been tried the economic tool has been tried as a work so what's left in the tool chest dialogue political dialogue and you asked me about. jenny president siraj announcement that he intends to hand power over to a new executive authority at the end of october i think that this is quite a courageous decision that mr soros has taken. it's also an indication that you know real change is needed weeks to lean over the last sort of 4 or 5 months

a constituency of change emerge in the country and that is why we believe that it's time in short order within the next month to resume under u.n. our auspices a fully inclusive political dialogue i mean we only hear really about libya in nato nation media because of the refugee crisis and refugees drowning only in the past few days 123 drowned in the mediterranean off the shores i mean is it your experience and i have to say president obama has regretted intervention in libya or at least made some announcement to that effect in other open as slave markets in libya his eyes his day ash coming from syria in libya it's only about a year ago that the united states was bombing libya to try and get rid of isis tash so look. what you had in libya yes this is an overall deterioration of the

security situation as it's been persistent but it you know it is nevertheless quite alarming you have a country where the borders cannot be secured so yes i mean and by the way you have the influx now of mr you know about some weapons coming in because of the foreign interference any foreign sponsors of the conflict are pouring weapons and sure country which by the way is already awash in weapons you know libya doesn't need more weapons so and if these weapons fall into the wrong hands yes indeed libya is and will continue to pose a threat to then the neighboring countries and and the wider mediterranean region so and you asked about the situation refugees. i grant's trafficking. yes indeed that is a huge problem and these human rights abuses and the treatment of refugees migrants

and asylum seekers you know as as well as by the way other very vulnerable population groups including internally displaced people in libya there are over 400000 libyans who had to flee their homes so i mean this is or one crisis compounds the other and we heard it described once has a good daffy running libya and it was africa's richest per capita nation the removal by nato of good afy was like the removal of a cork and this refugee crisis migration crisis has been. an effect of that nato bombardment is that your understanding well i looked there were refugees and migrants and what do you have prior to the revolution there was there were there was trafficking that was occurring prior example that said lucilla time to thousands there were tens of thousands of people. in the mediterranean this scale

right and like for instance this year we've seen over more than 8400 migrants and refugees have been intercepted at sea and returned to libya just this year and many have been placed into detention there are of course women and children and those very vulnerable population 5 and something like 454 migrants and refugees were intercepted and returned and and you know that's. that's a huge challenge for our humanitarian agencies is one problem you face and i know that their boss of the u.n. political mission doesn't saddam equipped this year according to some sources because of stress isn't one problem you face the security council members russia and. ana they just don't trust any western elements in libya in

fact they are going to the global south as well they don't want any of the former colonial power i know you're speaking to me from rome they don't want anyone else because they don't trust the motives of those who sought to destroy good office libya well i mean you know i think you'd have to ask those member states what i observed is that help for it's a united security council when it comes to the solutions for libya the libyan people need to stay need to hear that the international community is joining hands together to help them overcome their traditions to help them rebuild their country to help them bring their country back you know it it has the largest oil reserves in africa it has a a beautiful coastline it has a small population well educated you know there's there's no reason why libyans can't come together to chip forge a much brighter future for their country but they need the international community

also to come together to help them in this regard acting inspector represent a frank you. after the break history repeating itself we look back at another mass movement of people fleeing war with acclaimed actor julian sands his new film the painted bird explores the horrors experienced by persecuted people in world war 2 through the eyes of a child all the same or can have a bunch of going on the ground.

both. of us. last time we chased. each one of them carrying 20 kilos 'd of drugs. they just. maintain the money. they have. for me. i don't know maybe they don't. break right. now well. welcome back in part one we heard from the u.n.

in libya about the plight of what was once africa's richest spoke after a nation that by moammar gadhafi the nature of war in libya supported by the conservative liberal democrat coalition and backed by the u.k. labor party arguably catalyzed not only the destruction of that country but a refugee crisis that still kills scores in the mediterranean the new film the painted bird deals with a very different refugee crisis that of jews fleeing persecution during the 2nd world war and depicts the unspeakable horrors inflicted on a young boy attempting to return to his family something that apparently led to mass walkouts at film festivals in venice and toronto the film is out now and going underground deputy editor charlie cook spoke to one of the film's leads acclaimed actor julian. julian thank you sanjay. come on guy underground just start by telling me about the painted by well the paines it bit is a film based on jesse kaczynski is 1960 s.

novel it is an odyssey it tells a story of a boy looking for his family through the hinterland of eastern europe at the twilight of the 2nd world war and it the story is told through a series of and kansas with different people who represent different aspects of our glorious humanity but i'm going to be. just a voice. not because of. the whole but go meatless that. my character plays i play a pharma and in that high nate community and the priest of the community playground harvey keitel how who is one of my clients as moonshine

i make hooch spirits in the woods who is ailing has taken the boy and he has rescued him from the nazis who were going to kill him but adi ask if i may take care of the boy because i can use a hand on the farm and the priest allows me to do this but my character is not sympathetic to the boy here abuses him he doesn't represent what i might call goodness he is the worst kind of narcissist. i can't say i enjoyed playing him but i enjoyed the experience because i contributed something to this. rather important must work in my view i wanted to ask if you saw the film as kind of

a nihilistic walk because a lot of people have mentioned that there doesn't seem to take a side especially in your specific story you know a kind of pad with a godly cat and seems almost powerless in the face of what seems like evil well i don't think it's nihilistic and that the point of view of the storyteller the direct as a cipher for kaczynski is an observer and it's like looking at colonel. picasso is great in a painting made after the bombing of the town in the spanish civil war or the the paintings the drawings and images created by god in response to early a conflict between the french and spanish aromas baulch. crazing sort of his version of hell on earth i mean it's an observation i don't think it seeks to be

nihilistic you 9 understanding of the word did you read the novel before you took part in the film as a kind of respond i think i read the novel when i was at drama school in the late 1970 s. when vance love model sent me the script and he sent me the script from my chat but he sent me images. of what he'd already shot he was shooting it in chronological order because he wanted the boy said to physically grow during the film and he showed it over 2 to 3 years so the risk the boy does physically change vaslav had seen me in the czech republic when i did a presentation of a show i've been touring about harold pinto it's called a celebration of americans or something john malkovich and i devised together and. well originally with harold and he had seen that and i think that's why he wanted

me to play this this character i mean it was shot in november almost 2 years ago. in something bohemia and the little farmhouse they found as the location was a deeply creepy place it felt but you know axis act by reacting so that environment and that location gave me a great deal to to work with you know in the 1st of this program we've spoken to someone from the u.n. in libya and you mention the horrors inflicted on this child is a wider point about the horrors inflicted on civilians fleeing war that this film can illustrate charly i think is very contemporary and that and that because there's no nothing is glamorized in this it's a very hard and unflinching unswerving observation of this boy's story with absolutely relates to many situations and areas

of the world today and some of them very close to the united northwest europe where we are living so comfortably in spite of. the coveted and economic hardships compared to what these people are suffering. you know where in paradise goes on that point is the film's not just about the suffering of the child but also the racism and kind of like the creeping suspicion ifill's which is also something faced by migrants i was aware of it when i saw the film within my chat it's quite clear that the congregation very suspicious of is this far and it's not over it's not a state whether he's jewish whether he's a gypsy i mean in my chapter it becomes clear the end of the film but these phobia towards the resentment of his presence is very clear and very

troubling merits of mankind as this film yeah and i actually want to talk about the kind of the location in that the national aspect of because the language in the film is into slavic which meant specifically to not tied to any specific national identity to find that challenge to walk in in that language there were many challenges the language was simple i have quite a good for donna. and i was i was able to learn it. somewhere is that speaking in that dialogue. word has allowed me to get further away from myself and as it were yeah i just want to talk about the film's lineage in a way because it seems to draw unlike fellini's rhyme i can say to me come and say in fact one of that doesn't come and they have to pay is in this film unlike very

deliberately not yes i'm told in kosovo and films let's talk about talking to be aware that lineage going into it certainly. aware of the cost ski and influence on. us love because in the conversation he came up and i think it not until i saw the film at venice was i fully aware of how it was in some ways part of the international cinema of which includes the material the material you're you've referred to the speaking event as a lot of the discussion around this film in the press has been about so-called walkouts venice and in places like toronto your costar statens cause god said that it's absolutely necessary to be controversial when making films that you gave that sentiment in the context of all caps i don't think is necessary to be controversial

i didn't get the sense actually controversial although both sal and i and i have been in film those which have been considered controversial i think that it doesn't pull its punches it doesn't sort of soften the blow to the impact of the dreadful things which are visited this boy being 3 hours being black and white it's very very intense i mean it's difficult to watch so i'm sympathetic if somebody wants to walk out and get some fresh air and then come back you know not come back and but in terms of the reporting of the walkouts i think that was a journalist's story he was looking for an airing goal to create some cocky controversy prison so it is sort of banal but there is a real intellectual moral. contents which is worthy of debate and is difficult to absorb i think that's very legitimacy

. you obviously famously in the killing fields about another maybe the dales with cat genocide and some of the things to think your perspective towards these kind of horrors that changed well in the killing fields was made in 1983 and i was i think i was 23 or 4 at the time and i'd never been a star. listen to be nice to walk thing but not so far eastern to go to thailand to visit the refugee camps tolerate come podium bordeaux's which were being pretty old we weren't filming that but it was part of the research. we did before filming commenced and these these camps were clearly patrolled by come i rish cutlery and to be in such close proximity so this sort of monstrousness

was chilling. disturbing and illuminating i don't think there's been a period since then when during any given year one hasn't had to revisit and observe such conditions and ass issues from people i mean the breaks debate in. britain was the most appalling revelation in my view of the very scenes which we're not discussing just finally you mention painterly i just would like to know what your message be to politicians and maybe thinking about saving thing to saving then he's kind of funding the arts or in the current virus well i think it's absolutely imperative. you know if it seems to be considered just. another area of employment or is in fact it should be elevated to national treasure status because

it is they embodiment of the interest groups and cultural property of. the united kingdom that good that somehow i think there are many maybe there's a view that politicians are like see that it disappear because you know it may have lost some of its teeth as a petri dish of protest and revolts but it's such an important element in all our lives even for people for people who don't go to the theatre so much is generated by that and it seems. to salute. abdication of responsibility that more hasn't been this is the need initiative and commiserated help to endure oh thank

you so much. thank you joe julian sounds that speaking to going underground yep you have charlie cook and the painted but is available in select cinemas in the u.k. now and all the more that's in the show will be back on monday until then join the underground but all of us on twitter facebook you tube instagram and. you know the economy is a man made structure. try to scott engineers financial engineers economic engineers . thinkers. colossal 1st they filled over time what happens when the foundation of what happens when they structure collapses what happens when the stimulation goes

away. we. return all the restrictions countries in europe begin to limit liberties surging covert infections make welcome reappearance. add on the program in the us sudden other possible between the 2 main parties or ups off to the death of a supreme court judge with arguments over who gets to choose the replacement. donald trump. quote left wing propaganda being taught in classrooms and it's following the.