i will. return all of the restrictions countries in europe begin to limits liberties and searching covert infections making on well we have parents. in the us another battle between the 2 main parties about some of the debt this is simply in court judge with arguments over the timing and selection of the replacement. console lashing 1000 a close left wing propaganda being taught in classrooms claiming it's fanning the flames of anger being seen on the west street. and watching on t.v. international coming up returns he discusses foreign interference with the head at

the u.n. support mission to libya and going underground and for those of you watching in the u.k. and ireland this next. time afshin rattansi and we're going underground as u.s. secretary of state and former cia boss michael meets ivan duke and marcus president of alleged narco state columbia as he wraps up a latin american tour still feeling the shock waves of successive u.s. interventions coming up in the show 9 years after the formation of a un backed transitional government in libya in the wake of a nature war that devastated africa's richest recovered a nation what hope is there for a country facing political turmoil civil war and no global pandemic we all saw the acting special representative and the head of the u.n. support mission in libya and we investigate the page of the burden you fill. that

explores the naked brutality faced by jill dran in war that's causing apparently mass walkouts and film festivals from venice to toronto with one of its lead star of the killing fields julian sands told them all coming up in today's going underground but 1st after monday's special episode with columbia university's professor jeffrey sachs of the un's sustainable development network solution going on the ground got a rebuttal from geoffrey wilson author of the book jeffrey sachs the strange case of dr shock and mr aid in the interview professor sachs denied a quote i referred to in which he allegedly described himself as a free market idealogue jackie wilson told us sex did say that and he's in print doing so the quote is taken from the transcript of a keynote speech he gave an international conference of neo liberal policy makers how did in 1903 when he was still an economic advisor to yeltsin and when russia was still in the depths of the crisis brought about in large part by his shock therapy reforms he used to speech to make the case for international financial assistance for russia which he argued was necessary to ensure that his free market

reforms were not reversed in the face of growing popular opposition one point he told his audience for another speech delivered to the heritage foundation an influential near liberal think tank it is in this context he made this claim to being a free market idea oak. you can reach every wilson's full statement online and you can watch the interview we did with professor jeffrey sachs on our you tube channel well one country that arguably has been destroyed by western intervention is libya 9 years since britain's david cameron and u.k. warplanes supported by a compliant media areally bombarded what was africa's richest per capita country it is a catastrophe civil war proxy war coronavirus islam is tara from syria that alone the drowning of those seeking asylum only this week and now compounded by bitter political strife in tripoli's u.n. backed government joining me now via skype from rome is acting special representative and head of the united nations support mission in libya 70 turco williams 70 we're going to going underground before i ask anything about the

political situation obviously people are going to want to know how coronavirus it's obviously impacting hard on britain when the highest per capita or death rate how is it affecting libya which is obviously the subject of civil strife and a proxy war well the coronavirus situation in libya is quite so worrying you know we we believe that it is stired mean out of control in the country the number of confirmed cases is close to or at 25000 today which over something like a weapon 1000 cases are active and there are nearly 400 deaths that have been recorded a house of a 103 figures how are they getting the figures given that it's libya is itself divided into 2 or 3 countries i'm not sure defacto so we are so that the figures are produced you know by the authorities w.h.o. works across the country it is you're right there are divided institutions but w.h.o. is a lead said

a nationwide response and liaises directly with the different institutions the ministries of health and their national committee that is in charge of the coping response but you're right i mean we do believe that. the pandemic in terms of the numbers is there it is underestimated and this is because there are also things like there are persistent shortages in testing capabilities of course you know the health care system has been devastated over the last 9 years beset by you know conflict you know infrastructure deterioration and that has meant that you know it's sort of helps crippled the response the humanitarian agencies are working in these very sort of difficult circumstances we also of course salute the very courageous libyan health care workers who are on the front line. and and

and you know the focus needs to be on 5 prevention and and also in terms of frankly the government response east and west you know ensuring that the funding that has been allocated you know goes goes through the right channels and into the health care system while post conflict funding. is always be no god traversal i mean in libya had one of the best health care systems in the world certainly the best in africa under gadhafi what is the situation in libya 9 years after david cameron was telling us here in britain that this was a victory that nato had secured to overthrow the good afy government i mean explain how there's a west and an east and how there may be elections and why the prime minister might be a resigning right so i mean it's no secret that libya experienced incredible fragmentation following the revolution and fragmentation chaos

and division. and sort of a continuing series of wars and conflict and unfortunately. unabated blatant for. an interference in the country and so. it has been a real surprise foreign interference in by britain in the country and even foreign interference after the aerial bombardment of libya by britain yes there is there is you know foreign intervention has been a theme so it in and it unfortunately continues to this day now where where are we given you know the the past 9 years what are we looking at now. we are looking at a country that where that where the situation is just not sustain the military options has been used in libya and it hasn't worked quite clearly. there is no one party

that can militarily conquer libya and assumed power through the gut. the economic tool has not working or oil blockades do not work they only lead to increasing immiseration of the population and that's what we're seeing now so it is not therefore very surprising that libyans are going to the streets in the midst of a global pandemic to express their frustrations to to demonstrate against you know institutions and governments that are simply not delivering services not not providing for their citizens so he was in fact to mention not to mention the rampant sort of corruption so this princess to you know we've tried so the military jewels been tried the economic tool has been tried as a work so what's left in the tool chest dialogue political dialogue and you asked

me about. jenny president siraj announcement that he intends to hand power over to a new executive authority at the end of october i think that this is quite a courageous decision that mr soros has taken. it's also an indication that you know real change is needed we've seen over the last sort of 4 or 5 months a constituency of change emerge in the country and that is why we believe that it's time in short order within the next month to resume under u.n. our auspices a fully inclusive political dialogue i mean we only hear really about libya in nato nation media because of the refugee crisis and refugees drowning only in the past few days 123 drowned in the mediterranean off the shores i mean is it your experience and i have to say president obama has regretted intervention in libya or

at least made some announcement to that effect in other open as slave markets in libya his eyes his day ash coming from syria in libya it's only about a year ago that the united states was bombing libya to try and get rid of isis tash so look. what you have in libya yes this is an overall deterioration of the security situation as it's been persistent but it you know it is nevertheless quite alarming you have a country where the borders cannot be secured so yes i mean and by the way you have the influx now of mr you know about some weapons coming in because of the foreign interference any foreign sponsors of the conflict are pouring weapons and to a country which by the way is already awash in weapons you know libya doesn't need more weapons so and if these weapons fall into the wrong hands yes indeed libya

is and will continue to pose a threat to then the neighboring countries and and the wider mediterranean region so and you asked about the situation refugees. grants trafficking. yes indeed that is a huge problem and these human rights abuses and the treatment of refugees migrants and asylum seekers you know as as well as by the way other very vulnerable population groups including internally displaced people of libya there are over 400000 libyans who had to flee their homes so i mean this is or one crisis compounds the other and that if we had to describe once has a good daffy running libya and it was africa's richest per capita nation the removal by nato of gadhafi was like the removal of

a cork and this refugee crisis migration crisis has been. an effect of that nato bombardment is that your understanding well i'd look there were refugees and migrants but do you have prior to the revolution there was there were there was trafficking that was occurring prior existence than louis in a time to thousands there were tens of thousands of people. in the mediterranean the scale right and like for instance this year we've seen over more than 8400 migrants and refugees have been intercepted at sea and returned to libya just this year and many have been placed into detention there are of course women and children and those very vulnerable population 5 and something like 454 migrants and refugees were intercepted and returned and and you know that's. that's

a huge challenge for our humanitarian agencies is one problem you face and i know that their boss of the u.n. political mission doesn't salami quit this year according to some sources because of stress this is one problem you face that the security council members russia and . ana they just don't trust any western elements in libya in fact i'll give you the global south as well they don't want any of the former colonial power i know you're speaking to me from rome they don't want anyone else because they don't trust the motives of those who sought to destroy good office libya well i mean you know i think you'd have to ask those member states what i observed is that help for is a united security council when it comes to the solutions for libya the libyan people need to stay need to hear that the international community is joining hands together to help them overcome their traditions to help them rebuild their country

to help them bring their country back you know it it has the largest oil reserves in africa it has a a beautiful coastline it has a small population well educated you know there's there's no reason why libyans can't come together to chip forge a much brighter future for their country but they need the international community also to come together to help them in this regard acting in special representative thank you. after the break history repeating itself we look back at another mass movement of people fleeing war with acclaimed actor julian sands his new film the painted bird explores the horrors experienced by persecuted people in world war 2 through the eyes of a child all the same or can have a pontoon of going on the ground. join me every thursday on the alex simon show and i'll be speaking to guests of the world of politics sports

business i'm show business i'll see you then. to the near those who really can show you. that with that i suppose. some back. stupina bull episodes didn't go to see you or the. clear during your post where you could be near my stubbornness to the spirit i didn't do it was more sinister experiment done in the. stadia. shows to.

sort of move. the story keep going but what is. welcome back in part one we heard from the u.n. in libya about the plight of what was once africa's richest speck capital a nation that by moammar gadhafi the nature of war in libya supported by the conservative liberal democrat coalition and backed by the u.k. labor party arguably catalyzed not only the destruction of that country but a refugee crisis that still kills scores in the mediterranean a new film the painted bird deals with a very different refugee crisis that of jews fleeing persecution during the 2nd world war and depicts the unspeakable horrors inflicted on a young boy attempting to return to his family something that apparently led to mass walkouts at film festivals in venice and toronto the film is out now and going underground deputy editor charlie cook spoke to one of the film's leads acclaimed actor julian sands.

judy and thank you sir for coming and going under. on to start by telling me about the painted by well the paines it but it is a film based on jesse kaczynski is 1960 s. novel it is an odyssey it tells a story of a boy looking for his family through the hinterland of eastern europe at the twilight of the 2nd world war and it the story is told through a series of and kansas with different people who represent different aspects of our glorious humanity but i'm going to be. just a voice. not because of. the hold but go below us that. my character plays i play

a pharma and in that tiny community and the priest of the community playground harvey kite tell who is one of my clients as moonshine i make hooch spirits in the woods who is ailing has taken the boy and he has rescued him from the nazis who were going to kill him but adi ask if i may take care of the boy because i can use a hand on the farm and the priest allows me to do this but my character is not sympathetic to the boy here abuses him he doesn't represent what i might call goodness he is the worst kind of narcissist.

i can't say i enjoyed playing him but i enjoyed the experience because i contributed something to this. rather important must work in my view i wanted to ask if you saw the film as kind of a nihilistic walk because a lot of people have mentioned that there doesn't seem to take a side especially in your specific story you know a kind of pad with a godly cat and seems almost powerless in the face of what seems like evil well i don't think it's nihilistic and that the point of view of the storyteller the direct as a cipher for kaczynski is an observer and it's like looking at koenig. picasso is great in a painting made after the bombing of the town in the spanish civil war or the the king's things the drawings and images created by goa

in response to early a conflict between the french and spanish aromas baulch. crazing sort of his version of hell on earth i mean it's an observation i don't think it seeks to be nihilistic you nylander stemming of the woods did you read the novel before you took part in the film as a kind of respond i think i read the novel when i was at drama school in the late 1907 says when vance love sent me this script he only sent me the script from my chat but he sent me images. of what he'd already shot he was shooting it in chronological order because he wanted the boy said to physically grow during the film and he showed it over 2 to 3 years so the risk of the boy does physically change vaslav had seen me in

the czech republic when i did a presentation of a show i've been touring about harold pinto schooled a celebration of americans or something john malkovich and i devised together and. well originally with harold and he had seen that and i think that's why he wanted me to play this this character i mean it was shot in november almost 2 years ago. in something bohemia and the little farmhouse they found as the location was a deeply creepy place it felt but you know axis act by reacting so that environment and that location gave me a great deal to to work with you know in the 1st of this program we've spoken to someone from the u.n. in libya and imagine the horrors inflicted on the child as a wider point about the horrors inflicted on civilians fleeing war that this film can illustrate jelly i think is very contemporary and that and that

because there's no nothing is glamorized in this it's a very hard and unflinching unswerving observation of this boy's story with absolutely relates to many situations and areas of the world today and some of them very close to the united northwest europe where we are living so comfortably in spite of. the coveted and economic hardships compared to what these people are suffering. you know it we're in paradise also on that point is the film's not just about the suffering of the child but also the racism and kind of like the creeping suspicion ifill's which is also something faced by migrants i was aware of it when i saw the film within my chat it's quite clear that the congregation very suspicious of is

this far and it's not over it's not a state whether he's jewish whether he's a gypsy i mean in my chapter it becomes clear the end of the film but these phobia towards the resentment of his presence is very clear and very troubling merits of mankind as this film yeah and i actually want to talk about the kind of the location in that the national aspect or because the language in the film is into slavic which meant specifically to not tied to any specific national identity to find that challenge to walk in in that language there were many challenges the language was simple i have quite a good for donna. and i was i was able to learn it. somewhere is that speaking in that dialogue. word has allowed me to

get further away from myself and as it were yeah i just want to talk about the film's lineage in a way because it seems to draw unlike fellini's rhyme i can say it is a common say in fact one of the actors in common is they have to pay is in this film i like to be very deliberately not yes i'm told in kosovo and films let's talk about talking to be aware that lineage going into it certainly. aware of the coast ski influence on. us love because in the conversation he came up and i think it not until i saw the film at venice was i fully aware of how it was in some ways part of the international cinema of which includes the material the material you are you've referred to the speaking event as not of the discussion around this film in the

press has been about some who walk out venice and in places like toronto your costar stellan sculls god said that it's absolutely necessary to be controversial when making films that you agree with that sentiment in the context of the accounts i don't think is necessary to be controversial i don't think any of the sets actually controversial although both sal and i and i have been in film and which have been considered controversial i think that it doesn't pull its punches it doesn't sort of soften the blow to the impact of the dreadful things which are visited this boy being 3 hours being black and white it's very very intense and it's difficult to watch so i'm sympathetic if somebody wants to walk out and get some fresh air and then come back you know not come back and but in terms of the reporting of the walkouts i think that was a journalist's story he was looking for an airing goal to create some cocky

controversy prison so it is sort of banal but if there is a real intellectual moral. contents which is worthy of debate and is difficult to absorb and i think that's very legitimacy. you obviously famously in the killing fields about another movie that deals with cat genocide and some of the things to think your perspective towards these kind of horrors that changed well in the killing fields was made in 1983 and i was i think i was 23 or 4 at the time and i'd never been east of. listen to be nice to walk thing but no so far eastern to go to thailand to visit

the refugee camps tolerate come podium bordeaux's which were being put to troll we were filming that but it was part of the research. we did before filming commenced and these these camps were clearly patrolled by come i rish cutlery and to be in such close proximity so this sort of monstrousness was chilling. disturbing and illuminating i don't think there's been a period since then when it during any given year one hasn't had to revisit and observe such conditions and ass issues from people i mean the brakes debate in. britain was the most appalling revelation in my view of the very scenes which we're not discussing just finally you mention painterly i just would like to know what your

message be to politicians and maybe thinking about saving thing to saving then he's kind of funding the arts or in the current virus well i think it's absolutely imperative. you know if it seems to be considered just. another area of employment or is in fact it should be elevated to national treasure status because it is they embodiment of the interest tegra the city and cultural property of. the united kingdom that good but somehow i think there are many maybe there's a view that politicians are like see that it disappear because you know it may have lost some of its teeth as a petri dish of protest and revolts but it's such an important element in all our lives even for people for people who don't

go to the theatre so much is generated by that and it seems. to salute. abdication of responsibility that more hasn't been this is the need in this shooting of and committed to help to endure oh thank you so much. thank you john julien sounds that speaking to going underground if you have charlie cook and the big bird is available in select cinemas in the u.k. now and all the more that's in the show will be back on monday until then join the underground but all of us on twitter facebook you tube instagram and. you know the economy is a man made structure. try to scott engineers financial engineers economic engineers . thinkers. colossal 1st they filled up over time what happens when the foundation

of our brains what happens when they structure collapses what happens when the simulation goes away. new gold rush is underway and gonna thousands of ill equipped workers are flocking to the gold fields hoping to strike it rich here's the good. as. those that work children are torn between gold. my family was very poor i thought i was doing my best to get back to school which side will have the strongest appeal.