measure absent democratic standards how it should be taken as some natural growing pains or as a permanent and deliberate handicap absolute academic concert as i have to say the kind of is that is the option that some less let me in between those 2 extremes i think you know we go back to the seventy's or eighty's if we were talking then about exactly this question these countries going through growing pains and i think by the time we've got 2020 we need to recognize that countries that are stuck in this kind of middle ground between terrorism on the one hand of democracy and the other they hold elections but they rig the elections the same government a leader is in power for very long it's i'm these countries aren't simply having growing pains that are on the way to some wonderful democratic future need for a day you know complete talk receives that have no ability to have any criticism whatsoever they seem to be reasonably stable countries that are stuck in between

these 2 extremes so. it would be i think we should expect countries like russia to look roughly the same intensity in 20 years' time and it's going to take quite a lot to shift russia even to a complete or a terran state that doesn't hold elections rule or to a much more democratic state where we could genuinely talk about some of the troops and losing power i was drawing of a after the soviet union and i remember very vividly this transition from infuse the absentee anyone if you see as and for democracy to see a lot of cynicism not only among the people but also among the leaders and when it comes to the latter and. it was primarily driven by a realisation and deeply held belief that for the west democracy is not a value it's not the goal it's not something that they lead by it's actually an instrument it's in to all of many places and it's as they've i think totally wrong about that. tell me

a little bit more because i don't really see why democracy would be a stick of the west so tell me a little bit more about where that perception comes from well he your book is not very flattering to you after it terry ends but i think you're ultimately confirmed that a deeply held believe that everybody almost everybody uses different kinds of tricks and many play chanst you know you kind of subvert the house and take expression of political will and based on these democracies i do it in certain the way they are relying on laws and regulations to ensure that self interest authoritarian nations may be doing that and what in crew there are ways but ultimately i think the conclusion of your book is that everybody doesn't. no really i mean i don't think that's the conclusion there's a lot of countries on a book which don't really do it or at least do it less and there's a lot of countries in europe in north america that you know manipulates elections instead in ways not enough there's so really united states for example it is true

that historically black populations of minority populations a struggle to be able to vote and express their political rights and that's still an issue that the united states needs to do today it's also true that gerrymandering is a major issue in the u.s. you know kind of politicians trying to choose their voters out of them both just choosing their politicians carving up the electoral map in a very sort of a way that on interest so the united states has more of those problems but is still probably true that donald trump is going to lose the next election and stand down and that's about equally different situation to what we have say in russia recruits in or for example in uganda or president you erema 7 he's been a very long time now i think you would agree that donald trump is a very very unusual candidate as he's allowed to victory came as a major surprise to everybody so he's i think for now a standalone case when it comes to the american politics but up until him. they believe in this part of the world has been and in china for example the chinese

have long described them arkan elections as a beauty pageant the feeling was that while they face main change the people in power stay the same and it's just. utter cation or alteration that means the democrats and the republicans but by and large they've passed the interests are still the same and the policies remain by and large the same. think that's fairly true i don't know why when you say this part of the well part of the world are you referring to i'm referring to russia where we're at and former soviet union which indeed have a tendency for keeping leaders in power for longer periods of time but that i think that it is a very widespread perception here is that it's actually a more honest way of dealing with politics because the change does not always represent the change a thing that's the the massive step or the idea that is behind a lot of this cynicism that you know the faces may change but that. power still

remain the same. but i think it depends what you mean i mean you know which talking about the perception of average citizens in russia that's obviously to some extent you know controlled and shaped by a long period of information pushed by the government in russia just as a matter you know only that that that is not sure i mean that it and i am not interested in possession of the people or even propaganda academically do you think that the thing to change your face is in the united states not made me like excluding donald but this before don child with the change of people in power do you think the powers have actually changed the powers that be the thing they have i mean not noted the strike we know that big money big capital the arms trade the military complex industrial complex still survives on one leading to another said there are certain features of us politics that are common but it's also true that the u.s. was able to elect its best black president something that hasn't happened in many

countries around the world and certainly not the world's kind of white states impulse architecture is a mock received the color of their presence in so i think being able to elect leaders of different races and different ethnicities different genders is and good indication of democracy you are asking about change being able to change the phone one color that maybe i know it's your majority to another is i think one of the indications of democracy is. not the only one the other one is being able opposites change your leaders there are indications of democracy where i reviewed the united states down and there we might talk about the ability of the racy to actually tackle inequality and the way in which the 2 party system constrains the ability of more radical forces to come through but i don't think it's right to say or make sense to say right now that the situation in the us actually doesn't allow for any kind of change in the way that some authoritarian regimes do until really meaning that it has been you would agree that it would be a end of exaggeration if you apply that statement's you any country even in the

most autocratic regimes there is always a possibility of change because there is change is 1st and foremost serve though the kid is speaking of which one of the most interesting findings is that authoritarian regimes that hold and manipulate elections trying now to be more stable than those that don't hold any elections at all the fact that they feel the need to say ken is that ultimately at bat or a good thing as far as the moccasins consigning. yeah i mean one of the things that i think i retain regimes do is they stoke the foundations of their future downfall because one of the things that they do is they encourage people to believe in elections and then when they try to manipulate elections people then become frustrated and sooner or later it's ancien between the promise of elections and the failure to hold elections comes into collision and i think that's one of the things you seen recently in better oops where we seen consistent attempts to manipulate elections you know basically until the people became sufficiently fed up with the

failure of the promise to be allowed to choose the government then i think a really interesting question for us is you know what does that mean for the long term future and i think you know in countries like delhi reduced set in fact to seem to come together at the same time to getting to loosen president bush in close hold on power those facts as an ultra in many of our 10 states but what you've just picked up is an intelligent tension within the space scenes that does constantly all into question elegy to missy and i think there are a set of facts as that then come into play right is the regime able to deliver economic development is it looking like it's fulfilling its promises in other areas of elections doesn't lead to maintain a reputation doesn't devoid corruption scandals if you can do one of those things then the popular frustration with the electoral process is probably going to be kept in check when all of those things start to be triggered at the same time that's when the local authority regimes really starts trouble i mean to your head that. if you fix something there is ultimately chance of you making it which is

good for those who believe in democracy as you know as a genuine means of arranging human affairs as you point out in your writing. democracy promotion is is a very cash intensive field somewhere between 8 and. $1000000000.00 a year is here and yet the results seem to be very very superficial you're right in the involved. we're experiencing a real democratic deficit and not only in authoritarian regimes i think you are pretty clear that even in is that only democracy as there is a substantial democratic deficit and a lot of africa's going to. reap sending old window dressing brother down and practicing this this process authentically in their gag my question to you is whether it is a coincidence that we have observed this democratic decline ride over the period

when democracy promotion has become such air hot issue both in terms of them by any given the seams and in terms of their rhetorical attention abysses. well you know i mean i think the ultimate answer to this is that democracy is driven domestically and internationally and we've seen efforts by international organizations and governments to promote democracy in countries like iraq afghanistan and we see how difficult that it is also mentally it has to be reduced domestically because otherwise international actors need to be in the country $24.00 seventh's and make a sustainable so any country in the world that's built a sustainable democracy is due to domestic sometimes of international help domestically and one of the other things that we need to keep in mind is 10000000000 may sound like a lot but when you compare 10000000000 to the 2 in economies of the countries that we're talking about it's a tiny drop in the ocean so we have international governments that are trying to promote democracy but we've really it's of the small budgets in processes that are

actually controlled domestically and that's why i think we have this mismatch between this great ambition to promote democracy around the world and as you say the kind of limited effects of that ultimately there's only so much international actors can do i've seen you write recently that this summer a grab that the west is turning its back on democracy promotion is abroad do you think it's possible that there was real altoona to chop the issue completely to allow countries like russia like many others around the world to try that hand at this enterprise biden south without giving hardliners inside the country an excuse that you know these people are trying to hurt us through democracy promotion therefore we have to you know be chattel about this do you think there's a chance of the west actually allowing other countries to do it for themselves. well i think you're putting the question in an unhelpful way frankly i don't really think that's what was going on during the course a number of cases where in particular the u.s.

government has been accused of using democracy promotion as a tool of foreign policy and we need to hold them accountable for that donald trump's policy and inconsistency between how he treats a venezuelan tacky is embarrassing and unhelpful but is also true that president clinton's policy in democracy promotion i mean it's very likely you are sidestepping him but he's one of the champions of it. i'm not sidestepping anything i'm answering your question if you stop long enough means once and i'll give you an answer what i think we need to recognize is that in many cases the international community is providing assistance to governments that have asked for a lot of the money that we just talked about is going to governments to help them establish electoral commissions and your training to help them run elections to operate in that way international actors have to be invited they can't simply offer money to electoral commissions or governments don't want to governments who passed legislation or simply behaved as they kind of election observation and in many cases what is happening is the west is funding who can as ations and programs and

movements that either supported by the government will there are civil society groups that are based in the country consent i would fully agree with you if you would say that what we should see is international funding for domestic process is way international regimes do not try and push their own agenda i think that's true but i think it would be wrong to suggest that you know a lot of the countries we're talking about is simply been the case that the international community has come and tried to enjoy being imposed this is that we're already going on in most cases in better he says a great example of this international community really gets engaged when there's already a political crisis you know looking better reeses last few elections will is nothing was said about the elections when there was no public protest this time around everyone speaking about the elections not because the international community has decided to middle east amount but because there's a mass protest in the streets and that has triggered international action so i think we just need to complicate that international process a little bit more while professor cheeseman just as we were getting all worked that

we have to take a sure the break and perhaps cool down the to believe that in a few moments states. there are others drowned out. no dairy thinks. we dare to ask. for. a new gold rush is underway and gone up thousands of ill equipped work goes off flocking to the gold fields hoping to strike it rich is

a good. day over those that work children are torn between gold. my family was very poor i thought i was doing my best to get back to see which side will have the strongest appeal. welcome back to worlds apart that meat cheese man professor of democracy of the university of their manhattan and call there of how to meet an election professor cheeseman imagined a couple of times and i don't know if the present location has read your book or not but he definitely seems to be at tabc book example of a leader who used the actions to strength and he's great power until these year if you watch his recent interviews he seemed to be g.m.

you know me blindsided by all the mask problems that followed presidential elections and all the allegations of vote rigging. i wonder if it's fair to say that these type of democracy imitation works only actually doesn't. think we talked about this already i mean i think in my previous you know we talked about the fact. you know he's managed to put off this trick for a number of times in a row but to mentally if you see corruption scandals the failure to deal effectively with a growing perception of economic stagnation a growing sense of a desire for change if you don't have the kind of ability to rotate the political elites within the ruling party up and authoritarian regime will sooner or later going to face a challenge like this in a little over 10 anita's hat and one of the responses has been the question if you see a big uprising in moscow you shut it down enough you might go to get ahead of it the same in tanzania the same in uganda you shut down the airwaves you increase

censorship and a lot of spending and it's there's a great britain let's not put them to the side because they're using the law enforcement forces caught kohima why they have it handed way as well and so i don't understand how we could draw an equivalent between beller where the security forces the torturing people and the united kingdom could you explain how you could possibly join improvements you can have an equivalence ad saying that every country uses its security apparatus in a way that suits its political goals and i think some of the son of the protestant in the great britain aboard this person in pretty shabby handed way that's all i'm saying it's not about the political equivalence but i think the reality people here and it's actually you know repeating this is fundamental you are trying to excuse authoritarian practices and human rights abuses and i think it's fair to say that 'd arab leaders and tearing to pieces are crude i review 100 percent i'm just saying that and he absolutely follows from gimpel that status democracies are also

using treats those treats a different but not less manipulative they are less manipulative and i do think i mean the a god given of the book is that these things happen everywhere but not that they happen to the same extent everywhere i do want to go back to the president look i think if you if i may because i think he's a very candid manipulator and. i think a few years ago and you're right about that in the impulse loan. not to tampering the modes with the for the purpose of actually decreasing the count from i think 90 percent up until. you make it more believable and as funny or obnoxious as that anecdote may be i think it also reflects a deeply how believe that a lot of sins are ultimately not about the will of your people but about presenting . you know a suitable story for the international community can you only play president lukashenko for maintaining that story yes really.

who would you blame the international environment that exists that puts democracy promotion. in its rather superficial form above the actual process is on the ground. the international community is not responsible for that the international community would love to see genuine domestic process is the reason i was going to happen as president. so again the circle goes back to the president because frankly being welcome again you seem to want to excuse i'm going to and i don't really understand why you would take the side of experience who as we speak abusing human rights in the most terrible way anything decided they're very scared and taking the side of democracy believe it or not but if you go back to bellows i think it's pretty clear that while. the social maturing in the political maturity in that country is genuine it's also pretty avid and that it comes into conflict with geopolitical games and all the belorussian neighbor bellows his neighbors are

using the situation to print tat or ensuring their interest would you say that that's not the case. well i mean to go back to your previous point would you then say that instead of allowing delegates to get away with a superficial form of democracy the western government should have been forced to more genuine form of democracy what i was trying to say and i actually got to save you from your book is that there is a lot of sort of window dressing and pretending you know the reason why denmark autocrats feel the need to fake is because there are there is a pressure to fix certain democratic processes and in the case of some countries the. irregularities could could be ignored to give that suitable for certain powers that be and in quito they're going to go to her let me actually have it you think it would be better for them not to have to fake it at all would it be better at a to have a situation where they didn't have to fake it and actually they could just be brutally oh it's airy and they don't have to pretend to hold elections they don't

have to pretend to allow freedom of speech would be bad if they didn't have to do that is that you look at a situation and this interview is not about me but if you ask me i think it would be bad it's you give nations a chance to develop that own process as in fact i think it's very arrogant it's not supremacy is to believe that you have to meet why have political and social change for others if democracy is it indeed the vast way of organizing human affairs which i believe it is that you should accept the possibility that other nations could also arrive and that without your help that's what i believe in. sure but in that case what we'd actually be saying is that perhaps for the next 102030 years the international community would tolerate far greater human rights abuses and far lower levels of freedoms relating talking thinking isn't doing really anything i mean. as far as i'm concerned it's only creating as you know rhetorical battles but

it's not doing anything to stop this human rights abuses or that i think i mean again but the whole discussion of belarus this demonstrated that there is an effect to the fact that lucas franco had to hold elections gave an elements of hope to the opposition the fact that he continued to reap them undermined his legitimacy and now we see it very clearly that the majority of people in belarus do not want him as a leader so the openings that were fostered by the international community in that country have allowed domestic grossest it's a place much more quickly than it might international community absolutely has nothing to do that we have to give the credit to the belorussian people and speaking out which for now it looks interim ancient parallel with russian hout but i think it's pretty clear to everybody that there is a signal level of texas city about. that. he hasn't been able to insure his cell agism is he asking wanted for these elections speaking not in moral terms and but in political terms. do you think what do you thing it

everything like this can do you know going for it. can it return to the old ways. one that possible strategies it can employ to ensure its own security and physical security i think that you would recognize that it's ecan situation and the basket for its people as well as the preservation of the legacy that president lukashenko got in athens country i mean i don't feel that the people of east right now want to shank a legacy right this year the length lucas shank a legacy of one of corruption libertarianism failed economic policies and stagnation but i don't think there are 30 he also build the can if the economy of the country you have to give him some credit you can avoid the whole to one side i mean part of the reason people are protesting is because because the numbing situation is not favorable because they do not believe that this government has the economic interest i think she meant it because they say as we all see this isn't

back now is that there are certain things that he's done for his country they say that it's just his time to go that's it but they are not talking to him in bloody truth and actually trying to people who are out on the streets calling for someone to go and not trying to preserve that person's legacy in terms of the options that he has available to him obviously he has to she has and try and reform and train introduce mood to its democratic processes that will buy off the opposition my sense is that just won't work the opposition is too strong and she just misses approaches a new christian who doesn't want to share power anyway or he can become increasingly repressive until he has something close to a totalitarian police state to contain the opposition of a sufficient opposition leaders and hope that he then survives the international sanctions that will follow refresh the support must. since right now as he will go for the latter option unless one of 2 things happens one is faces a major force of opposition from within the ruling party itself or until putin says

actually this is becoming barassi for us to be don't want to have to me about she going to pull or someone else to come in who we can see is someone we can work with but aus hope it will stability so i think it's hard to see a short term solution to my own sense is that there's going to be a lot more bloodshed and pain before this is all about well we don't have time to go into russia there is one question and i want to ask you that was bugging me as i was reading your book i had a feeling that all those tricks electoral tricks that you are describing i'm not longer an easily a political in either democratic or attack craddock sad and i have this feeling that every new generation of voters. is becoming the last and last. patient with these kinds of many places and what they do that and from the leader and what they demand from the south is changing is that wishful thinking on my

pride or is it supported by the now the it's a cat and mouse game i mean voters get wise that he doesn't start to get fed up and he does start to use new strategies digital media has created opportunities for opposition parties and for voters to you know hold leaders accountable and to scrutinize them and to do things like in a more effective election observation but it also creates opportunities by leaders to then take control of that sense of that and use exactly the same platforms to put out their positions so one of the things we talk about a little bit in the book and i think is really important moving forwards is that you know the way that elections have been. a lot of countries are now using electronic technology to run their elections you can be late electronic technology just as much as you can manual technology and so the big battleground in the future maybe digital me play ssion acking etc when i was in the past it was starting in gerrymandering so yeah i think you're right that voters get wise but i think it's also true that leaders are often one step ahead they very well funded they often

spend a lot of money on advisors and those advisors often know the latest new relation strategies and one of the problems for election observers is that they often say look we're we're almost always fighting the last election looking at what was done and trying to stop it and the leader is a way to begin the future election trying to find a new strategy and i think that game of cat and mouse is probably going to keep playing out over the next decade well professor she's never have to leave it there really appreciate here is the spirit and you can i think there are you know to have a lovely day you have a beautiful watching hope it's here again next week and all the hard. part.

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in our news review of the week russian opposition figurehead says he is making progress in his recovery out for being allegedly poisoned as moscow and. the cakes . hundreds were detained during saturday's opposition rally in the belorussian capital with another protest getting underway there as we speak as anger over the disputed presidential election shows no sign of relenting. also today the u.s. says it will remain closed sanctions previously lifted on iran and a unilateral move that irritated washington's.