a way of measuring and measuring things does not change the thing that is being measured them that subsumes be true but the i think the sort of more pragmatic and natural way of looking at this is testing it isn't an very important tool that enables us to monitor the responses of viral transmission to our interventions now your own independent sage maybe this is a long way from a statistical analysis of neurons but some of said is it wise to punish poor people with 10000 pound fines for a covert infection because some of said we're only as strong as the most vulnerable and if someone is faced with a jail sentence for not being a 10000 pound fine with who has a covert and a roof over their head they're obviously going to go out and infect unwittingly but certainly go out into the community with a covert infection yeah absolutely. i mean common sense would argue that

if you had. money to spend and you wanted to use that money to underwrite isolation of those people who have been in contact with infected people if you want to get on top of the. the current upsurge in new reporting cases they need to support people in isolation if they're finding it difficult so most people i've spoken to throughout the spectrum are academics to through to politicians appreciate that the only way that we're going to really elude or mitigate peak deaths in the secondary wave is to contact trace and support people in isolation so there could be many people who just cannot isolate either because they have dependents or they don't have sufficient space in the house so these people need supporting so that's an

important aspect of contact tracing this is you know i think one of the main messages that know a 3rd lever that the government has yet to pull in order to prevent a 2nd wave of morbidity and mortality is to get out there and empower and enable public health teams not just to identify the contacts infected people but also to monitor them and to help them if they're having difficulties in that in their sort of isolation so that's where the resources should be closed that's a matter of course for a circle any british viewers watching this the 10000 burn vine does stand as the law states at the moment i'm assuming you don't envy the position of the chief scientific officer of england's a budget balance there what did you make of these emails a freedom of information request as revealed to the b.b.c. that anything you can do to call more academic friends down over herd immunity would be greatly appreciated. this herd immunity. concept is that it's never

ending since since it was 1st mentioned by patrick valens and chris witty you may have to just tell them why is it early munity is not a policy for plague measles mumps yellow fever or all these other diseases for which we have a vaccine. right it's a great question. they do the arguments and debates i think have become an usefully polarized and out of the scenario so you're absolutely right i do not and it's a patrick bounces position or chris witty. simply because it's the factors that play into the way that an academic develops include both social distancing and population immunity and herd immunity and so you cannot deny are either as key mechanistic factors that are going to shape the course of the endemic over

the over the next few months however the herd immunity become politicized and it's now that is into a somewhat added say ariel approach which may be a false dichotomy i think most people do appreciate the pulse dichotomy but from the point of view of the public in the media and the political debates the premise here it's either one thing or another we can either go for lock downs and social distancing and pursue a mitigation strategy with a suppression at the end of the road or we can. aspire to accumulating sufficient protective immunity also then as herd immunity so much of the social distancing or lockdown procedures are not necessary i think that's a false dichotomy it's a false premise both herd immunity or population meter to at least. social distance and not down are can work hand in hand why. it makes the other work better both

make contact tracing easier very quickly ask you about this week or someone about bunkers and people who are getting away from all this you forget that the serial some conspiracy theory is pouncing on your modeling showing 80 percent covert resistance in germany 50 percent go vid resistance here what are we to make of the resistance more than you've been doing very briefly. briefly it's an important aspect of the model of his heterogeneity sort of variability in our exposure to our susceptibility to in the ability to transmit the virus most of the scientific evidence now points to a substantial at a genetically all 3 levels it's important because it means that we may be in a better position otherwise in terms of being able to control the spread of the virus again through this lever of contact tracing much of the advice of the government from several months ago discounted or ignored now what is increasingly

accepted as a a truth that there is this hatred in haiti in play and. that by presenting immunity is winning immunity. is certainly one important so that would be noted susceptibility sort of. mediated immediately mucosal i mean actually the kind of immunity that would not be registered by a positive antibody test so we're talking about an extended concept of immunity the includes sirrah negative people which could actually be quite a substantial part of the community and it's important to quantify that's what's important to understand about proportion it's there but probably more important to quantify that because it materially affects the sensitivity of our interventions and then we come back to this knife edge that you introduced at the beginning the very fact we're on a knife edge means that we are very very sensitive to purge additions and

interventions and that knife edge is afforded by among other things they had that you've been you're referring to visit golfers to thank you. now is the threat of covert 19 which disproportionate effect support is rising again and climate change and used natural disasters like the california wildfires continue to cause widespread panic what are we supposed to do well the rich the elites the world's top celebrities have a play a luxury underground bunkers here to tell me about an arguably natural neoliberal response to potential armageddon is the author of bunker building for the end times dr bradley garrett who's in big bear lake in california dr bradley garrett thanks so much for coming on going on the ground before we even get to the bunkers of the rich and famous i'm just going to start with what on earth it's like in california right now way you are whether you're in a bunker right now because we're watching the pictures transmitted all around the

world of the wild over the last few weeks have been utterly apocalyptic here it's been quite a struggle we've had and just near my house in big bear lake california and we've had a fire burning the eldorado fire and we had ash coating all of our vehicles my partner amanda her dad is on oxygen we had to evacuate him down the mountain but you know this this didn't used to be the fire season and what we're hearing from the fire service here in california is that there there is no fire season anymore this this is our reality now as a multiple number of courses being prepared for by the rich and famous arguably bill gates can guy that in tom cruise they all have one how do you get to writing a book about bunker was when i started this project in 2017 and i've been working with urban explorers prior to this you were sneaking into off limits bases and some of the spaces that they were sneaking into were old cold war bunkers and as it

turns out there is that there's a thriving private industry now where people are buying those bunkers that you know were not used for the fabled mutually assured destruction. and they're turning them into you private subterranean citadels and once they realized that was happening i . i knew there was going to be a wealth of knowledge to be gained from following these people and trying to understand what they were preparing for what kind of spaces they were building and what that means for all of us because obviously. you know it's kind of a canary in the coal mine moment if if the wealthy and governments and c.e.o.'s people in power are building these bunkers for themselves where does that leave the rest of us dr bradley garrett i'll stop you there more from the author of bunker building for the end times after this break.

birdsall ahead. far behind or if you give us a. harder. every day is that you. just. committed. to move.

them into the fish you know not just before. they are the house of. god since we. need to know them you don't hate. the skin or. any. other kind of open system definition in. our newscycle. world is driven by shaped.

thinks. we dare to ask. always be polite never engage with a negative aided or confrontational also. don't get into any conversation or start answering questions just ask for an attorney. survivor tira geisha. definitely don't want to be going to try to jump on cups. you're more likely to walk free if you're rich. or if you're poor and. you've got 2 eyes 2 ears and one mouth. so you should be seen in here and

a whole lot more than you're saying if you don't take that advice easy going to dig yourself. welcome back i'm still here with dr bradley got to do with her bunker building for the end i want to get to don't trump actually because in your book you say that there's one of mar a lago built by a serial magnate breakfast cereal magnate and that is where he decided to assassinate iran's top general because it's so they actually fought with u.s. troops against isis. some kind of something that we should take from that information. well it's. it's no secret that trump is distrustful of the government the very government that he works for so from the beginning i mean your members at the beginning of his administration he spent a lot of time in interim power before moving to the white house obviously when he took the job of president he inherited a number of bunkers including the one under the white house that he hid in during

the social unrest not too long ago had lighted lives may have a protests that's right you know but he he has his own bunkers he has a bunker under mar a lago and apparently spent $100000.00 fixing up that bunker which was apparently derelict when he when he bought that property. and that was where he made the decision to order the assassination and you know this is really unprecedented in american history that a u.s. president would use. you know their their private redoubts to make intense government decisions like that and there is a lot of controversy around whether he. you know had the right under his executive authority to be making those decisions from his his private residence although of course say in your book you do actually mention another president jack kennedy famously wanted to assassinate fidel castro and so many other global leaders and

you talk about his nuclear bunker in florida but i think the theme in this book is is this somehow of a maverick of neo liberal individualists of this idea of well things can go wrong but you can also save yourself and prevent other people coming into the bunker should be apocalypse come and then create a new society off to. well it's it's a byproduct of neo liberalism on 2 fronts because on the one hand. having faith in the government to protect you from situations like this is something that's been consistently eroded over many years as you know cuts have been made. government programs will help their programs i mean the only thing that seems to be increasing year after year is military spending but i think a lot of people have lost faith in the government's ability to take care of them and you see that here in the united states with the distrust around how fema

responds to. response to these sorts of situations but you know it is also a neo liberal ideology to think that if the government doesn't have the resources to take care of you that you're going to build a private citadel and essentially take care of yourself and your family or people close to you and that now has morphed into a multi-billion dollar private industry where people are selling space in bunkers. and you know it's turning into a situation where only the people who are able to buy into those facilities and have that sense of security that in other parts of the world the state is able to provide i mean i should say that of course there are no new a liberal bunker mentality used to because you mention russia's 43 cent a party 15000 people for 30 as far as the claim that the russians can put them down here but i don't think most americans may even know you say in this book the

department of homeland security advisers all households have at least a 3 day supply of nonperishable food and that's now not a jury in the cuban missile crisis yeah that's right the last 2 to stick that i found from my book was that in 20113700000 americans self identified as preppers and that's an astounding statistic because it means that there are a lot of people who wouldn't necessarily claim to be preppers and also people who are prepping without knowing their preppy i recently had a researcher from cornell university get in touch with me to say that he had updated those numbers pandemic and it now looks like. about $12000000.00 americans are actively prepping or you know anything from an extinction level event down to you know every day natural disasters wildfires hurricanes blackouts or the possibility of. infrastructural systems going down you know people are thinking

more about how they're going to be able to. achieve some kind of self-sufficiency they were able to enable them to get through these these difficult periods of sure that level of fear and preparation is really reflected on news me here are going to have germany though home to the birthplace of col mox has a bike cos bunker system that you talk about but in the democracies in nato nations you talk about luxury bunkers i mean you mention the privatization of these bunkers but what do they have in them depending on where you go people have a different set of motivations and ideologies and methodology that they think are going to get them through the most extravagant bunker that i saw by far was in kansas where a property developer developer called larry hall had purchased a nuclear missile silo an atlas f. missile silo this is one of the vertical silos that would have had an intercontinental ballistic missile nuclear tipped inside there now at the end of

the cold war they decommissioned it larry hall purchased that from the government for $300000.00 and then spent $10000000.00 of his own money turning this into. what i can only describe is a subterranean condominium complex it's kind of like an inverted skyscraper there is 15 stories underground half a florist sells for one and a half 1000000 or sells for 3000000 and he's got a lot of amenities down there a rock climbing wall a shooting range cinema there's a bar down there and it's swimming pool with the water. paul you know when i asked him about all the the luxury that he had built into the bunker he was very clear in telling me this wasn't this wasn't luxury it was about survival because if people are going to go into that bunker for 3 months a year 3 years 5 years. you know you can you can engineer that space technically so

that people can survive you can have the food and the resources there but really what you need is to keep people occupied he said that was absolutely crucial to survival underground it's a long way away from the burlington bunker of the ministry of defense of the few broken 2 of them are going for way yet what that bunker with built by the u.k. government. to evacuate the capital in the event of a nuclear strike and they constructed that for about $300.00 people they could stay down there for 3 months and. it was an incredible thing i mean it was it was a draining city and i was able to. move through that city and and see the radio broadcasting stations down there and this is all top secret until way after the fall of the berlin wall exactly yet and so this again comes back to that sense of frustration that

a lot of citizens feel when they realize that the government had been building these bunkers for themselves during the cold war but but those bunkers were built for for politicians and their aides essentially they weren't built for everyday citizens and so that you know there was a real sense of betrayal. that it's extremely point here in the united states where people feel that the onus of survival has been placed on them and the united states now is just riddled with apocalyptic communities people that are. building not just for themselves and their families but large scale communities like those old government bunkers but these are completely private endeavors and it's all organized the. medical ones i mean you mention a mount whether in virginia is a blue ridge mountains be teams of political congressman who want the top level like trump i suppose when the evacuation happens there all preparations are all being made you know the government. puts

a lot of thought into what they call continuity of government so if there were to be. you know a terrible calamity they split the government up into different bunkers so even if one bunker is bombed or something goes wrong in one place they have a kind of backup team to keep things running. you know that was all you know it became common knowledge after the end of the cold war what we hadn't seen at that point was private individuals using the same name logic and a lot of the bunkers that a win win into you they actually had the government manuals they had manuals from fema and from the department of defense and they were using that. as models for building their private underground communities presumably some of them are classified at the moment i should just say for our international audience as you also talk about djibouti these bunkers built by the chinese government i think 23000 square meters india has built 14000 bunkers in the church while village

amidst fighting in kashmir countries all around the world are preparing for apocalypse well not to mention north korea which you know essentially the surface architecture in north korea is epiphenomenal the country basically exist under ground in fairness curtis lemay said the britain and the united states killed 20 percent of their entire population they really have anyone to of course they had motivation to burrow but it's not just about war a lot of these bunkers were connected to both traditional war and nuclear war now of course we face a greater range of existential threats the climate crisis artificial intel. gins and this this again comes back to our conversation about about neo liberalism and globalization you know the more things become interconnected and interdependent the more fragile societies become and we saw this at the beginning of of the pandemic when supply lines began to break down and a lot of people

a lot of countries which are you into themselves and are still in a state of lockdown. even the distribution of my book into australia has been extremely difficult because getting packages in there is it is challenging so i you know this the pandemic in terms of the threats that we face when i spoke to the preppers that i worked with for my book they told me that this is a this is a mid-level event i mean this is indeed been a major catastrophe and look how it's reshaped. society politics international trade and you know everything has been altered through this mid-level event so the range of things that preppers are preparing for includes things that are far worse than the pandemic and just finally i mean you make it clear or at least a imply that there are elites that understand the disaster capitalism will mean

trouble for there for elites children that alone anyone else you may not know what's in bill gates's bunker or the car that shins what do they have in place to keep the unwashed masses out of their bunkers as the world crashes down around them . well we have to keep in mind that the the bunker isn't just an architectural space it's also a metaphor so it's just you know it's a it's a way of thinking about. how to deal with what people see as the inevitable breakdown of culture and society and geo political systems so a lot of what the wealthy people have in place are what preppers called bugout locations. they'll have multiple properties in different countries with different political systems and they're essentially hedging their bets that if things go wrong in one place they can get on their private jet and escape to their bugout location and ride that out what's astounding to me is that is that we've you know reached this this new phase in disaster capitalism where people don't just see.

these disasters as a byproduct of the way that we live but they actually see them as an opportunity to profit so you know as i said this is a multi-billion dollar industry now and a lot of the people who are building the technologies that could lead to you know mass unemployment automation artificial intelligence those are the same people that are building bugout like cations that are building bunkers and i think that that's something that could should concern all of us i should just all of this say though that anyone thinks they've turned into faux news talking about end times you do mention there is an irony that it was the right that was talking about and times and doomsday now it is critics of disaster capitalism and. you know it's right you know as an academic i spend a lot of time reading philosophy and i actually found that what the what these

preppers were telling me was lining up with what philosophers were telling me that are you know often on the radical left and they were saying you know we are reaching a terminal phase because of resource extraction because of the way that we're living and so you you end up finding actually a broad spectrum of people that are now buying into these narratives. this is no longer the domain survivalists and the radical right by any means dr bradley garrett thank you it's been a pleasure thank you and that's it for the show will be back on when they will then keep safe and join the underground by following up on your facebook instagram and sound cloud. the election only weeks away the troubled ministration continues its ancient mania against cuba venezuela has never explained how this advances the national interest

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a. simplified use of nuclear induced. armenia and azerbaijan both to clam martial law i think decades old territorial conflicts between them plans i guess. there are a few of the week in office stuff at the united nations russia's new coded vaccine for free and advanced stage 3 trials of the vaccine underway in russia one of our correspondents is among the 1st here to get the job. this morning and i got a call from the trainee yes jane i am an ideal candidate here look this is your vaccine there's not much in there looks like a couple of drops ok i'm ready. well london and thousands guy.