visionaries may serve the shepherd not because i condemn it has forced the world to embark on a remote work experiment is it merely a test run or are a new reality pull it transform working life as we know it by let's find out with kate lister president of global workplace analytics. kate lister president of global workplace analytics great have you with us today. here now with the pandemic remote working is finally mainstream but how long will this effect last i mean will telecommuting lose momentum up to we're done with a virus i really don't think so i think we've reached a tipping point already 6 percent of the population and this is just going to throw it over you know you're hearing company after company that says they're going to continue this after the pandemic the big thing that changed is that managers are no longer afraid of it that's the thing that's been holding back remote were since the

1970 s. when they were cello or was invented now that they've done it they understand that it's possible and that they can manage people remotely but i'm thinking for instance necessity is forcing companies to tell their employees to stay home like you sat on the market like we have many different kinds of companies let's say a so-called startup would probably have no trouble doing work remotely but then you have like and sion traditional companies like i.b.m. or 18 tea or something where you have this you know history of hierarchies showing up for work etc will these giants have trouble operating as efficiently as they were with you know people working from home. we're we're seeing it across industry and across size of company in across age of company and even c.e.o.'s are making statements that they surprise themselves that they've been converted you know not everybody not every organization is going to have a huge percentage of their employees working remotely and i think it's important to

say that it's not likely to be a full time thing me the sweet spot is 2 to 3 days a week and that's been true you know as long as i've been doing this for for almost 20 years a community going to be some people that are fully remote but you know i don't think these large companies are suddenly going to give up all the real estate and the fact is we do individual work and we do teamwork and what we've learned from a pandemic is really we can actually function just as well remotely in time work but we don't like it as much we want to act yet we not talk in detail about that because that's of course like they that the main point of why people are being a little wary about working remotely but let me ask you this working from home is such a dream for so many of us what i mean for me i'm loving it for the past 6 months i'm doing it remotely yes before disaster struck it wasn't really the default path for majority of businesses right well what is it about remote working that is scary

to those who run companies have this fear is being overweight by the theory of cobbett now. it traditionally has been that managers simply don't trust their employees i mean that's the honest truth that they they're used to managing by but since it's you know the back of somebody's head rather than managing by results which is something that we've known since the 1950 s. is the way people prefer to be managed and maximizes their both satisfaction and their productivity. so now that managers have done it themselves they see that it does work and we've seen that historically in the research once a manager does it and i thought oh ok i get it but i think the other big thing that's going to change here is that this has become a see sweet conversation they've seen that wow you know maybe we don't need all

this real estate maybe there is a different way to function and maybe that's managing by results thing is a good thing yes it is a good thing. and with the you know potential economic downturn coming then we're tension is going to be put on those reducing those fixed costs like real estate. and risk managers and investors are showing you know voting with their feet that they want to have companies that are resilient not only resilient but also sustainable. well well that would be you know a thought that i mean you're probably talking from from someone who's seen research on right but for those who haven't thought i hear often about telecommuting is that it doesn't just doesn't provide the same fruitful working environment as the office so what i mean is they take jad so anxious to be out there per bill water cooler conversation it's been 10 years this question is you know for work matters and in

size that appear out of a free from socializing is working remotely not bad at all for collective creativity and overall productivity at the workplace doesn't affect it at all. for productivity the research has shown over the last 15 years that it increases productivity and the 2 big reasons is reduced interruptions we did a survey just about a month into the pandemic and found that people said they lost 35 minutes a day less to unwanted interruptions at home which was kind of a surprise because you know with all of things that are going on at home right now this is not the best of times to be to be doing it. and so that's one element the other element is they tend to give back 50 percent of the time that they would have otherwise spent commuting so you know those 2 factors have have forever increased the productivity also makes people more loyal they're able to

work when they're maybe not feeling well you the mind might have otherwise called in sick but if they can work at home they're there they're happy to. on the issue of collaboration you there's always been this this idea that you can't collaborate virtually well i'm sorry but we're global economy so regardless of whether you call it telecommuting we are collaborating. fact is people want to do it in person so this survey that we did show that they're just as productive in teamwork working remotely but they're not as satisfied so they were that human contact you know they know that they want that face to face but there are all virtual companies that don't have any of that and how they replace it is through virtual communication but also by getting together physically maybe once or twice a year it turns out that it doesn't take much to me taint those trust bonce and those social networks and one of the things they found is that gaming just gaming

for 10 minutes together with your colleagues is something that creates and maintains those social bonds. it's let you know that mix is better i'm not advocating for all remote because really you don't reap some people like to be together with other people and that's important. but still you're saying a lot of it's going to be done remotely for the most part and like with sad experience shows that issues can be solved and messengers and zoom. how can this convenient but in a way unfair imperfect tools fully make up for a lack of communication with our colleagues i mean are they going to be perfected in a way that you know we don't even feel the need anymore to have the face to face contact with our colleagues. yeah i mean look at how quickly those whom backgrounds. came on the scene you know silicon valley is already looking at this and how do we improve it there is a new technology coming out that allows us to be sitting in the same room so that

you know we feel we're together you know we're never going to have a 3 dimensional dementia ality well i shouldn't say that maybe with holmgren's we will but you know it's not going to replace it but there's times and i think this is something that leadership is realizing right now that good enough is good enough so you know and then sending somebody across the world on an airplane or across the city to have a meeting meeting like this is good enough. and i think that that's what we're going to learn coming out of this is that there's a time to use technology and that we can improve productivity by relying on technology and there's times that we we do want to face to face and we have to find that that you know that that cooperation that that that point in between where it works best and by the way it's going to work different for every company every team every individual so you know it's a matter of what works for me so should companies right now be investing in virtual

reality software now instead of offices downtown. i don't think it's there yet i think we're getting close i think that that will become a norm it's already being used in in a lot of industries for things lake walk through is of facilities. so you know this is going to it is so many ways the pandemic has not created new technologies or new new. norms but isn't excel aerated them so we were already working remotely now we're working remotely more we were already working on virtual technology now we're really working on it. and i wonder if this work remotely regards all professions was no exception because for instance me i make my money by interviewing people and that that entices me and you talking face to face and of

course it's better when you are face to face in person dissing someone like me an interviewer can hope to have its profession transformed to a point where i will never see a face to face like all my entries will be like this in the future i absolutely think some of you and i would have never met you know if you would listen to me across the across the world you know you would not come to me. so you know if it's making possible connections that would not otherwise been possible. so there's you know there's talk about it's going to reduce the serendipity encounters and you know that's not good for innovation well in fact there's evidence to show that it actually increases the your network we can be global we can talk to anybody anywhere so you know i think we have to stop looking at how do we replicate old norms and start thinking about how do we use technology to do things better and we

have in the past people talk about the watercooler my husband has a line we try to get better and better we should work harder and harder to get better and better at something we shouldn't be doing it all so you know was was the watercooler not going to thing and is there a different way to collaborate that in fact is more inclusive you know that doesn't leave the interviewer out of the conversation. that's what my hope is that going forward that's what we'll learn from this but also. the argument that people have in favor of you know face to face work is that it's going to become more rarer but it's going to become more expensive and more exclusive and that everyone's going to strive to have that do you agree with that that face to face contact in any field whether it's journalism or big corporations is going to be a luxury but it's going to be something that people will strive for. i think it's

going to be a long term a long time before we get to that point i mean i think there's going to be this huge rush back to the office and it's need for face to face and it's really hard to separate what's going on with the pandemic and what's going on with remote work you know are are we are restarting for connection because you know we can't even go to stuart. you know why do people go do period of getting over that and getting away from the kids and getting away from the spouse. but you know i think that we will settle into a pace where people work where they are best where they do their best work for whatever it is they're doing and you know one day that may mean getting together in person and another day that may mean working remotely but i think that stigma has gone away now. people realize that working at home is not does not mean sitting on the sofa and eating bon bons kate would have take a short break right now when we're back or continue talking take

a blister and president of global workplace analytics talking about how the president has changed our work ethic. l. look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. i robot must obey the orders given by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the 1st law show your identification for should be very careful about artificial intelligence and the point is to create trusts ever other than sheer. conflict take on various jobs and with artificial intelligence will summon the

demon. a robot must protect its own existence as. well. as our own birds or head to the floor behind for the few good percentage. of our good. services the people it's. just a pretty good they're going to manage to get. to see mama to move. on i managed to finish you know not just go from home in the. media they are the house from. god since we. need. me and the need. this can only. give.

any. kind of. definition in. the news to him. when i was told seemed wrong. why don't we all just don't hold. any dollars yet to see her out of disdain come to africa and in again try to ignore her trail. went on to find themselves worlds apart wait to look for common ground.

and we're back with kate lister president of global workplace analytics kate plus and you think about working will become an option for every employee someday. where housing manufacturing distribution you know there are a lot of industries that we just are not compatible you know there may be something compatible in each job maybe one day a week or maybe one day a month or something like that i think as robotics and automation take hold that many of those jobs will be able to be done remotely but you know what they're always be people that you know drivers well maybe not even drivers you'd be able to drive from your from your living room this this vehicle but you know it certainly is a office based knowledge worker that is most suited to

remote work and i think that it's important for organizations to. create an environment in a culture of flexibility that goes beyond remote work if people are desperate for some control over there is a over there in life you need to go back a saturday you've got errands you've got you know this to do and not to do in but if you listen to saturday because you are in control of that you're in control of when you do those things and how you do those things and that's what we want in our in our work lives maybe even offering flexibility increases employee satisfaction even if they don't use it it's just having that little bit of control over your schedule and autonomy ok. i mean also there are concerns step remote employees can end up being discriminated against in terms of pay and bonuses and promotion prospects as compared to their office based colleagues and i wonder why

the fears are even there but why should some remotes you know a sales manager be paid last save pay sales are just as good as those in the one the office bound the college yeah it's been a fear it's always been a fear that the media talks about that everything we've done in terms of surveys over the years and even recently has shown that it's a minor. concern for employees 20 percent of the population says that they're concerned about it. but nobody is very concerned about it i shouldn't say nobody but a very very small percentage is very concerned about it one of the things that remote work does is as we talked about is forced people to manage my results and like you say if you make the same sales when you're sitting in it the desk in the office and you're at home that's managing by results and we can reach an all have those kinds of goals that it actually increases the fairness in those salary

decisions and those promotion decisions because you know it evens the playing field if we're all being managed. i results there's no you know employee or the guy that comes in at 6 o'clock in the morning and doesn't leave till 6 o'clock at night you know looks like the most productive guy there when in fact. we don't know what he's doing if you think about that the fact that amazon shopping peak hours are during working hours. it doesn't doesn't say much about being able to ensure that people are productive even when they're at the office. the rise of work will also lead to a more homebound life right we could change the whole landscape of how cities look right now our whole cities are built around the idea that people wake up at home in one place and commute to work and another like we have city in london where nobody lives but people come in droves during the day for instance and so many big

mega policies are built that way will the idea of central hub of the city where everyone goes to work thus making it a center sort of die out. i don't think it's going to die out it is going to be different and we're already seeing an outpouring from cities to suburbs and to rule areas some of the real estate platforms have seen a 100 percent increase or a 1000 percent increase in people looking for suburban properties and rural properties you once they've been told that they're going to work at home forever they want to get out of the city this is also coincident that was already happening this is also coincident with the. l's now having families so that exodus from the city was already starting to happen but cities are going to be hurt by this and all of the not just the offices but all of the the ancillary businesses that support them while i was there they were empty offices mean knowing they lunches no happy

hours no you know need for a cleaning crew maintenance or even just letting you know all of those them still did things in the service sector will suffer because of this oh absolutely i mean they're you know i think they'll be a period of adjustment but i think that some of that office excess office space could be repurposed to make for housing more affordable. it's going to require some rezoning but there's already examples of this in areas throughout the world where they've done it really have converted those spaces where they've converted malls to . housing so i think there's an opportunity to repurpose the biggest reason people don't go downtown is because of the traffic getting there and getting out of there and i live in san diego and you know her husband and i used to go down to the city which was a 20 minute drive to go to a play or to walk along the harbor or whatever but we stopped doing that 15 years

ago because you just never know how long it's going to take to get down there and how long it's going to take to get back out so i think that cities can can become return to being places of cultural connection and. restaurants and night life and those kinds of things. but there is going to be a period of transition it's going to be hard but also i'm thinking if more people a switched to or pro and probably choose suburbs over the big city how likely is it that they will actually help the growth of some kind of local business restaurant exactly why not you know it's i agree you know one one's going to lose the other is going to gain by vision there are other people talking about kind of a hub in a spoke model so the being the center downtown office which is now smaller and then places throughout the suburbs where if you want to drop in for a day or you want to go to work 2 days

a week and you want to have access to you know the big deal conference room room or to see your colleagues or whatever you'll be able to do it in these regional spaces and i don't think that those are necessarily going to be company you know and i think that we're going to look to the coworking model and that's going to be transformed into something like a cooperated fully owned. and or spoke i should say. who are collaborate it with places who are maybe even independently owned as in the coworking model so i think that whole the whole model is going to change and suburban real estate commercial real estate has has been in trouble for years so you know this is a pendulum it's going to swing the rate you know it's going to swing toward the suburbs so was that happened to us it is like new york san francisco i mean with bright minds always working from home now moving to cheaper cities with what do you think will happen to the legendary ones in iraq will they finally become affordable

to live in again who for most of us. yeah i think they'll become more accessible you know in terms of those haves and have nots the people that you can work remotely and can't work remotely i think the benefit of reduce traffic will benefit the people that fact have to go to the cities to work and potentially as we said give them maybe a. less costly plates to to live. ok you know some say that work from home helps maintain better work life balance others claim the opposite saying that you know their working schedule has become increasingly blurred forcing them to actually be functional basically 247 while some say that their productivity and creativity got a boost in the confort of their homes either actually misses very much the same person cobb aeration with colleagues. you actually mentioned it earlier on so what work isn't like the promised land for everyone how will this 2 approaches balance

themselves in the coming years. it's important that employers don't force people that don't want to work remotely you know they you have to give people choice there are some people that don't have a suitable home area and one of the things that we found out in our survey and others have have revealed since is that it's the younger generations that are having more difficulty at home right now because they probably live in smaller places they may be sharing with a roommate they may be you know living with their parents and so you know that's part of the difficulty but you know some people we've got to recognize that some people are going to want to continue to go to the office and you know everybody loves to make this conversation polar you're either all in or you're all out and it just isn't it's you know it's that's that hybrid it's that middle ground. and you know i think that as technology improves and as jobs become more. automated

that more and more people will have the option to do this and hopefully the option to to also go to the office and socialize there's also some conversation that goes along the lines of. over the past decade we've stopped socializing with friends and our you know more commonly you know people we know are people at work so maybe this that's going to slip to you know i've got you know a number of neighbors because i'm walking more. and you know maybe that's going to these these communities are going to become tighter and closer. all right kate it's been a pleasure talking to you thanks for all your far casts and good luck with everything and hope i can get to this maybe like in one year's time so we can rake up on everything we spoke about and see what actually came true and what did a. very great all right thanks a lot and had a great day thank you. my

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