do you have a plan familiar asked he's a tory frederick in both russia and the west the 3rd seem to have dumbfounded bell what is the difference i want to discuss that i'm now joined by that area and actually most correspondent and editor in chief of b.n.a. in telling us that it's good to talk to you thank you very much for a time as a thanks for inviting me now this interview has an interesting backstory to it because i am i believe you're right grace approached by my colleagues from the r.t.i. news division who are sort of if i understood correctly at trying to place your views hint in that framing of the story in that case it was the promise in dollars and then when they found out it wasn't perfect they didn't call back and i really mean it accurately that's my understanding is i was told by a producer and they want to just soak. in the russia and the line and you've done a couple of features commentary pieces on the same line saying that she's and. that

she's there as the western governments have recognized her as a legitimate leader that latvians is going to fire a schooling have president elect whereas actually she has no legal standing and that she said we don't like in venezuela and the problem was was that that rang me sort of proof checks my own status before inviting me on and when i had made it clear that i don't think that the 2 cases equivalent and made clear that i was going to say no i do think she is just what they are although this program spackling are elected that they didn't go back and so i wasn't invited to comment and so i said you know if you're a journalist nearing an expert and their insights if their opinion and even that my opinion didn't seem to fit with the line then i was dumped and consequently you know there was a biased and i greeted you did me come across as censorship or even a critic that. caching of propaganda but it also strikes me as that is

a very routine and a very common way of producing television news not only in russian but i think pretty much everywhere how common this dream interviewing of this sort at in the industry is and industry and if you're asking to t.v. stations in the west do they have a line and are they interested in people with a period and then that's absolutely true and the obvious example is is fox news which absolutely has an agenda and is biased but you know i'm an old school journalist and so much this is supposed to be about objective it see you resets people who know what they're talking about and if they don't agree with you and you know the least you can do is debate. the prescreening of and says in my mind it's not it's not on i mean in so much is if you want to discuss a tricky issue like this and it is a fairly kristen's one if she is and i'd say. you are someone like me and

i'm going to say no you can put somebody else on who's going to say yes and then you've got it's bait that they would have to make up their own much more well let's start going down there is where i get this tendency of thinking whether it's a millionaire or to says most of it at this point i find it ironic that both russia and the west and commentators sought to present it as sad as is my dumb moment with all the theories and hopes a fantastic but you've been arguing that ad been answered alrosa aren't nothing like we've seen before what can make them stand out for you. it's in many ways a unique revolution the tendency to link it to my down because again as the people on the street mass demonstrations it looks very similar superficially is obvious and the western coverage international coverage i mean obviously the edits. going to reach for those kinds of parallels because the amount of

information knowledge that you can assume in your readers is actually quite limited it's again when covering the sneer of it at night that well it's not on the news every day and so the view is in the u.k. or the u.s. would recognize this oh it's another color revolutionary spirit the masses of people on the street and so there's a natural tendency to frame the story in terms that your readers recognize but what we're trying to in is to the more human story and surveillance of it and again the informed as watching this it's very different or have that one of the big changes when the biggest difference is ukraine is a very divided country between the rest of us in the east and the nationalists in the west and in belarus it seems to be a universal across the society as well i mean from the middle since it actually is immense through to the people that were in the factories of university reject. shank and the peacefulness of the process the votes just as the organizers took

them off sky air and several made it absolutely clear they want to have a peaceful process and also the lack of to politics if you remember john mccain the u.s. senate was on my down making speeches about freedom we are with the people which was to say that we reject the democrats key elected president on a cove a show that everyone hates him and he was a terrible president. and appeal to the crowds there where is the protest is in better russia have made it clear that this is not a chip this fight while i dream of you that probably have some grass roots promise in our largely void of geopolitics i'm not trying to you can't. really come across this way and they can stay this way because that clearly a lot of adjure is quite trying to use those products to advise their to political interests going on because the problem is better us risk. dragged in slowly to the

chip let's stand off between russia and the west i'm in an office just been in brussels she just met with my front she's just about to meet with merkel and my problem is you know they they have agendas too that they have problems with russia you know highlight methyl was come in saying i think just this morning and she was saying that we stand with this other parents with the people and at the same time we believe look because knowledge is present a president but at the same time we do know want to get involved as you know block politically in this fight. first english language address to the e.u. said we want your son to die at sea but please respect the sufferance see it better russia in other words this is a fight between the people and the president and then this is a tricky question because when an adult when you recognize be it tainted nature or even try to project land the nature of the boat. you know any possible intimacy of

the incumbent election can this case it's one thing but when you are all unknowing to 2nd status and legitimacy to his competitor without actually having an accurate tally and develop something else entirely. that this is a disputed question i mean then and you probably saw i had a long argument and so it's it was one of the it's exactly this point. i say the beginning that we don't know what the actual result is however there is some evidence in so much as there were 20 rebel owning stations set released what they claim is the real results and those shows that. won by an overwhelming majority. we did that could be that could serve as a proof that the david did vote or the actions were a free and fair but you can't take that as a measure or as a pro of you know i don't agree and i think my my problem with that is that at its core it's ultimately sassy teaching internal l. . action german legitimacy with. an outside recognition and it is at its core

a tell to me deciding for the people that's exactly what the ship is doing he is deciding for the people isn't the e.u. with as much criticism of him as it provides isn't actually doing the same just siding for the balor russian people that the issue here is to what extent are we comforted that he lost he claims he won 80 percent of the official result was 81 he has not behaved as a president who won 80 percent of the see no gration the rebel polling stations we have numbers and those numbers and or those stations so a landslide they say and also there was this just a study on that based on the official results also says 70 percent and finally when the pro-government demonstrations have been organized no one sends up if he just met me and really did thanks again there is in the name of the recent tracking to

the question of whether the look of shock is legitimate or not i'm not having that argument i think there are lots of additives that these these elections weren't free and fair and that he's legitimacy as a leader is that very very questionable my question is if a friend again should meet a c.m. that he had nasca that is a legitimate representative of the belarusian people that she had this biggest unique or shape let's say 8 package as she did on behalf of the belorussian people and the reason i'm asking these is not because i'm trying to put you know a look at shock and the e.u. on this x. a moral footing because the means that it is it used to procedure and and in this particular example it is not it is made to the serving assumptions the problem is their legitimacy as president you know they live in as a say a putting up president elect is that the sensor lesson committee bunce all of that so there's no possibility of a recount and there's no possibility. to check which means there has to be another

election if we question get this is this is something that the e.u. may well cross for but it's not doing that it is saying that we recognise i directly or indirectly by accepting it also can add that behind its level in brussels that she is the leader and that if you're reading into it that the only people who actually recognized. what they said and they put us in is careful about this they have not recognized that dissent is the gist missy but only the latvians have said that she's actually president better don't you respect me in the economy and we can become very legalistic here and i both look at shanghai as they have the russian government has a long tradition of being legalistic that if you accept somebody of the highest level and enough guy has been accepted by but had self all european institutions he's negotiating a package for democrats want to get all this thing that annoys her with the status even without you know putting it formal press release out i mean it's also about

symbols is it not yeah but you know i mean negotiating is a loaded term i mean she's gone suppressors and she's talking to them by except to ask who exactly as who and that i mean as the a member of the coordination house which is a self point buddy in order to negotiate but you know in that sense we see she normally won the elections or at least. falsified i'm not sure but then they set up as a party to have a negotiation and then it's working about transitional government and a new election so this is being the position. and in that as the semi official head of the opposition movement is why she's being received in brussels but i wouldn't say she's negotiating in so much as there is no legal force to any of these scuffs it's having to live in fear of these cow autocrats and be it imposing champions over democracy abroad ought all to play into each other's hands because think. why

for these and national and all geopolitics and grassroots democratic initiatives because look at how they can now go and say yes see they recognize her without even counting their vote and you know that maybe he's out to get me and you will be 1st i'll be ultimately reinforcing each of the narratives and. you know making it so much difficulty much more difficult for local actors from a grassroots movement to crash for democratic change without being accused or without being branded as a for an actor and a great like i said in the beginning of this comments that you know it's getting dragged into this chip political game and at the same time sick enough. said in her comments that she has been a bit more. in so much just that she thinks more pressure needs to be put on and so she is acting more presidential by taking that like she's made that decision on our own and she's she's not like it's anything at this point. but she she remains the

face and europe remains convinced that not only are the elections totally legitimate she probably won the gold down the line everybody is saying that no one is going to make a president. that there has to be new elections and with those been ballots there has to be because you need a definitive number on how many votes she wants and that simply is not available and we have to take a very short break now we will be back in just a few moments stay tuned. my name is 2nd. i'm going on. mr jackson wanted on teacher.

to put it over there you know if. we let him know we're going to give it. to concerts and you can move. you know. these kids and i used to make it very very easy no food to leave school and drug use to people . who support who comes to clubs you really he's trying to fit in the music that people whose jobs because he makes me company. he does because he makes me happy playing with him from the very end. and when you get to teach me. the bad guys and because it's backed up my ass

a lot sooner because. you. know. i doubt. you are. welcome back to worlds apart bound arius etta james b.n.a. in telling us up but i want to charge on another news bomb to get us on in september and i'm talking about be allowed to poison in all that russian opposition politician alex a number we should not only triggered all the mail year and narratives in both russia and the west but i think it actually made us seriously undermine out war changed the post cold war relationship between russia and germany. there is now

a real prospect of a hole in the construction of the north stream pipeline add if that happens if that comes to pass i am absolutely sure that the e.u. russian or russian german relationship will qualitatively change now that you are a long time russian what chair when you know are presented to me is like that it's so many complications and underground currents how do you how do you go about making sense of any and we tend to focus on the business the economics and it's a nice frame of reference because you know it's like the follow the money thing if you say the issue of the north stream there's a lot of let's. be perceptive piece if they the u.s. is looking you know now they're producing gas in excess and they want to export their energy clearly the commercial aspects of this story play in this story and being the issue with no stream is. basically that it cuts ukraine out of the

transit routes from russia and western europe feel like russia's been bullying ukraine but if you look at the economics i mean that talking about energy security however. in the seventy's eighty's russia was responsible for 70 or $0.80 europe's gas that's fallen in the meantime to about 3540 percent so europe is already diversified away from russian gas and that having this new pipeline the most stream 2 that russia will to live in exactly the same amount of gas as it's and it is now so there's no increase in dependency on russia the problem is the energy security issue because when they went through the pipeline to ukraine because of the terrible relationships between russia and ukraine and because of ukraine being effectively bankrupt it couldn't pay its gas and gas from turned off in 2006 and people are taking this as

a political action whereas it isn't actually an economic one and germany the reason why they key in on this pipeline is actually increases their energy security because it goes directly from what is really a very clean clear that they are so keen on these pipelines anymore because in marco hit herself as quite ambivalent if there's evidence that there is such a as sure going to be. allowed to poisoning of somebody like the bali and the set huge implications huge an economic terms. what does it tell you that was dramatic i mean medical suggested she didn't say explicitly she is just it. that no strain to pipeline may not be complete because of not only was asking for the kremlin you know to be accountable all the stuff accounts it's what actually happened which is news and i see said i mean this whole affair open about these poisoning good. dramatic change in attitudes because

matt the man who doesn't have a very good working relationship i mean they both have to deal with the geopolitics but all such i mean as a major investor russia has literally 10 times more companies working in russia than any other europe in paris more than all the others put together. and if that relationship changes if his arms length now we're going to do it the us and e.u. entity rather than german russian and say that's amazed change and that's a major blow to russia i think they not only wheezing stories and very particular kind of story because it falls into a very special category for me that characterized by 2 features why that is extreme visibility everybody has heard about it and the 2nd one is very little no ability there are very very few established facts and the most critical data this case now all these test results i'm being held by germany the test results and the formula of being allowed to poison them being held by germany even though one would think

that one of the most revealing things would be to compare the test results that not only had in russia and windows test results and one that there were produced when he lets us not entirely true but in the original what could possibly hold germany back i checked into this that the issue here is no which is actually a military. nerve agent chemical when the responsible authority is. the international organization chemical weapons and that what happens is not known it becomes a by last way shoot everything has to go through the p.c. and that germany has submitted that information to the p.c. and mr is a member of the organization and is entitle to access the states is through the o.p.c. w. so as far as the protocol is consent germany and russia have nothing to do with this now don't you see w.'s are very controversial are going to say shit because immediately you know what getting vote here is the. call squeeze anything and the

old be a legend das stories of using chemical weapons in syria and that you know better than i do that then number of western scientists who work with the older c.w. and who are on record to die means on record complaining about the pressure put on them by western security agencies to provide the result favorable to that conclusion so you don't trust based on the overriding you don't trust trust the russian process how inclined he tries the o.p.c. w. protest and given the history of that are going to say shit and then role it has been playing in these geopolitical games between russia and the west i grant you their p.c. is obvious but despite his history and has had problems in the past and that undermines it's just missin his authority. nevertheless everyone signed up to this chemical weapons treaty it's the one that's in force and is the one that has to be for that and it's a good situation and then you can ask questions as to you know whether they're

playing again super scoopers. i'm haven't done enough reporting on it suits cool that you know i'm aware of the reports that it's actually full and that in the past and that raises a question i've written that. it isn't up to literalistic a position for germany to take in duty if you are so concerned about human rights about the yeah you know you'd be use of chemical weapons out on the character of europe about there russia's track record of dealing with opposition figure is it's a looking about germany i mean germany's nothing but bureaucratic i mean they're. very elastic and they're doing this by the book which is released it says the o.p.c. 72 and then the protocol say that it has to be checked independently but to other people which was france and sweden. they present no it's just me i would agree i say why not share the dates directly with russia because it would be just a right not just something joint investigation i mean you can it can't have russian and german investigators on both sides. and that would mean you must be kind of the

red tape and increase the transparency of the time i see a 100 percent with you on that i think because we want to miss this like you said this i mean the consequences of this could be significant and of thanks very much to him in russian relations so you don't want that nobody wants that and by sticking to the price of the book you i see increased tensions and it is to my mind not really clear why they are sharing it but nevertheless the protocols are very clear in the o.p.c. to germany's doing exactly what it's supposed ok let's move to free syria have all of the of the monk that i want to ask you about and it's the only thing they renewed poor bit when i was there but john and i mean and i am absolutely and taken aback by the coverage of what is going on because. i think this whole conflict shows the degree task nature off in full wars because i don't know if you've seen

the other day but that at least went on television accusing. the prime minister i mean you know being a puppet the sorest question you know that actually used to leave all being a dictator assy any of that matters that he in the in the case of the territorial conflict doesn't show that. you know we're all so taken aback by this narrative of you know democracy purses that talk receive sattar at that even when they have nothing to general parties immediately employ dance here or you know get somebody on their side and name calling between as it goes on and i mean yeah i mean it's been going on for decades the whole oh i'm not going to kind of back issue has been rankling since the fall of the soviet union and the propaganda. presidents in both countries have been using it as a political tool to rally national feelings and ensuring elections and what have you and it's been festering we i was in i suppose on so insists the russian

agency and they were complaining that in be any we have the news of armenia next as about john and could we not move it to the magazine that was saying it's boarded. this is insane but it just highlights me you know how the embassy the scene that's so when this fighting begins it's natural that they start pulling each other and they say it's got very emotional very suddenly both calling each other when it means but using familiar themes to you or attract support to decide and one of the one of the other things that struck me is how little coverage there is both in russia and in europe about true keys role in all of that because undoubtedly both brussels and the girl in moscow extremely concerned about the role turkey is playing essentially adding i stand by john on that i'm not making any secret of that secretary who came up pretty quickly. and it was everybody because turkey here

has the rhetoric has changed that so he's always been a supporter as a potion and. has and so he supports it in principle but not at a gun has come out he's basically saying they're going to put supports at mit's wrist. and then that raises also support him so he's a member of nato of course. and i mean use member the lecky was your organization was russia so there's a possible scenario with sex and the russians so just stop fighting and like 5 maids. i mean these things that we floated none of that is actually very like this will tell you that it has not likely but there are family day armenia officially accused turkey at all far shooting down its plane over its own territory now nobody took it seriously and that everybody is sort of treating it as a fake without admitting to it that none of the sides has also released and that none of the radar data that they are in possession i mean. i don't really sure that

that something like this is like a serious peeing often a guy gassed in russia's last military alliances really of the cars because you need seems like all being all the parties and trying all the warring parties i'll try to draw as much support in as they can i mean i think the end of this is definitely going to be to politico i mean the thing with the collective security unite so that it's again it's a techie from a tank of turkish territory not military. soldiers are killed in the only or anywhere else outside and fight doesn't get treated them so you know that's why those consensus less likely but as you say everybody is reaching for that you have political as opposed on stuck in i mean it's a russia and i think the resolution of this is this going to be a nasty would it's going to go on for maybe months as john in an already rejected. must because of its media because the fighting is too early on that people are now

battling to see what territory they can get and i think when the fighting settles down and the lines are drawn and people realize that they're not going to move forward or backwards then they're going to send to the other players but he has serious interests in the region so does russia is actually friends with both as a john and i mean. they want to see a resolution to this but then there's a lot of. political capital to be done in the negotiation that follows between russia and even the other well that it's been a fascinating talking to riyadh running out of time so i have to put an end to it now but thank you very much for sharing about it and if mr and thank you for all watching as hope this year again next week in our worlds apart.

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in the depths. or inmate in the shallowness. of. the week of hostilities between armenia and azerbaijan bring devastation to the capital of mccormack on a par with shelling of the city ongoing r.t. reports from the ground. you massive explosions in the very center of the city 250 millimeter caliber it is a massive rocket. the fighting spills beyond the disputed obama kind of region as a bordering a very city comes under artillery fire. a muscular call out a slice everybody knows he's a liar there's nothing smart about you joe what you should i don't raise an excuse the world is now your number.