hello and welcome to cross talk were all things considered i'm peter lavelle the host soviet frozen conflict no one has not gotten the quote about is no very hot we tell you what you need to know and it's america in 2020 acting out similar events that witness the bolshevik revolution in 1970. to discuss this and more i'm joined by my guest george is an author and a you tuber at the gaggle and here in moscow we have dmitri bobbitt she is

a political analyst and editor it interest me internet media project originally crossed out rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i was appreciated ok let's go to the georgian budapest the conflict including the quote above has flared up again those that have. been watching the post soviet space have gotten used to this year now after over 7 days of the conflict create knighting again georget some kind of stalemate put it into context why is this conflict important to follow. where you have to go back to the earliest days of the bolshevik revolution and to the decisions of joseph stalin who was the bolsheviks point man on nationality he was the nationality. in among the bolsheviks and he decided that the region of my god should be a part of. there by john to be you know within the within the territory by john.

and it's ethnic make the exactly it's ethnically armenian the armenians were going i'm happy about that that this would be a lot of i mean but he decided to be a part of us there by john in large block because the bolsheviks was seeking to appeal to the muslims of asia and also the muslims of the of the what became the u.s.s.r. and in particular to turkey. at that's right and the nascent bolshevik regime was making great efforts to. keep turkey happy. so that back when it was set up now of course it didn't really matter so much within the u.s.s.r. because everybody just did as they were told by the leadership in moscow but when it when the soviet union broke up in that completely chaotic appalling way then of course these national issues. because it was one thing to be

for the armenians of the border guard about being part of us led by john which was within the soviet union and it's quite another thing to be part of us there but john which is now an independent state. i mean really going on since since the breakup of the soviet union one of the things that makes it different than what we saw from the original conflict out of the end of the soviet union was in the late eighty's early ninety's i want to be unimpressed this year and this case both countries are relatively well armed now. even though azerbaijan has significantly more well because of oil and russia is supplies the arms to both countries more or less here but the difference in this case this time around is it's becoming much more internationalized turkey is playing a major role here and a lot of people are very critical of. if you throw here israel was involved others

want to pull in iran this is the internationalization of it if it were internationalize it would be a repeat was seen a number of times this is what makes it different this time. though you're absolutely right i think. a lot of qantas just behaving irresponsibly intuition to this conflict. i would just suggest you compare the statements of president and the statements of the gravel and the gun just opened the service i called who support everything in azerbaijan thinks it makes sense to do it for its security i mean what kind of gasoline to do it is that so there is certainly irresponsible on the side of turkey. why did it become possible turkey has not behaved so responsibly in during the last conflict and in 1940 basically

with the big 3 or one media well i think the reason is basically what happened in the last i would say 1015 years just let me remind you when turkey syria in 2000 you haven't 1012 all been everyone reported the western press reports of the turkey supported you know the terrorist groups that entered syria from the north it was not a secret nato was on the side of turkey let me remind you of that when syria downed turkish fighter planes always in their tree in the beginning all the war quite legally because the turkish fighter plane was on the syrian the syrian airspace nato even had a crisis meeting they were deciding what to do in order to support to make it. ironically just a few years later. in 2000 i guess 19. when turkey

moved against the american al ice in the north of syria against the kurds that nato was completely different they started talking about ever gone trespassing the borders up sovereign state of syria which they didn't care about just a few years ago right so it was a complete change. unfortunately after gone kind of you know that you owe it so if you do it's being said that the west does not object to you or you are free to act as you want as you want basically in this situation he decided that it was just the bow tie him to to give support to as everybody. got reached there everybody jumped back to it then one of the things that we discussed all 3 of us was goes previously is that why disturb you do it is because i can do it here and that's it that's a very dangerous form almost the ok because you're not thinking about the consequences of it george are there are media reports that. through

a turkish channels that you have fighters from syria and libya and the in the caliber of that these are militants this one description or another they're being transported into this conflict into the box that is a very dangerous step here and considering what demon just said about the reaction to turkey we have the french president speaking very very clearly that this is a very dangerous development according to reports george yes the reports certainly credible and i don't know what extent they've been confirmed but they are widely. accessible reports and it's certainly consistent with everything else that no one has done i mean a great remember initially there were these jihadi terrorists who were transferred from libya to syria in the immediate aftermath of the overthrow of get up in. and

then recently france. is from syria to libya so that we would be perfectly plausible. to one now be transferring jihadi fighters from syria as they are by do you know. it's a as you say why is there no one doing this yet because he can he figures that if he creates enough trouble than he is heavy defeats on the armenians then you know russia and the rest of the minutes group will have to accept realities on the ground. you know the armenians will have to give up some territory within hours or by johnson to the charity of my going to be reduced and then everyone will hail this is a great big tree yet another plant was foreign policy but also that we signalled a defeat for russian or i'm at home with me not to go there they want to gambling on is you know i mean people have talked about here to all of this neo ottoman is

a 1000000 things like that i mean there's a literature on it and maybe it's just a pipe dream too but one thing is undeniable in all of this this is a major irritant for russia because russia degrades with these going i mean even to the point with a kind of military hardware with planes for example both governments need permission from russia to actually use them in military at seeing here i mean this is a real annoyance for the kremlin here and maybe that's the whole point go ahead. oh well i would say that both sides of course powerful arguments used their favor by john has some arguments too because well let us be clear in the current look at about a bishop under international law is part of. when the war ended up in 1904 as i say it was armenia speak turkey and most of their refugees from up north in karbala where ethnic kurds are by join us not only and i want to cut off.

armenian control but also several jason. districts over over by jump rope are armenian control so i think what we should all pray for is that bob who just wants to get back to these areas 1 which are not populated almost by anyone right now that would be i think the best outcome because it would be in the form of your security in return for terrorist in action but unfortunately there is a high risk it's not going to happen because both sides are raising the stakes you know the latest reports are that armenian missiles some armenian have targeted ganja which is the 2nd largest city in azerbaijan that just kind of raises the stakes dramatically in this situation so both sides have arguments in their favor the russian educate is very simple just stop fighting trying to resolve

it by peaceful means because if there are if you're just of course a lot of them will go to russia. and that's the more star i think. of these conflict because if we go back to history you know both sides will find dualism so arguments in there. but you are absolutely right that the. 4 are straight i think it's not just a new year and it's a very bad situation for all of the international community and the west is also in a precarious situation here because initially. atheists the russian. and the west basically support up and out of sight but when i was there by john joint who are you know these are russian coalitional or soviet states the egg at us in the west suddenly changed and there was more and more sympathy you for as you are

by john so basically i think. there is only one solution is just to stop fighting and restart the formula fed a truce in return for security because you know what have destructor weapons and it's very interesting is that in the in the late eighty's and early ninety's. iran could have played a very important mediating role but that they were shut out by the west again and again a regional player a very important and powerful one was shut out of a process that could've been how to peace process internationalize instead of having someone like the one trying to flare up the conflict. will end on this point george i think we'll know it's all over when everyone is summoned to sochi. it could well be. but i think at some point russia would have to intervene in a more decisive fashion and russia is not of all to be marginalized in this process

so if one is able to hail this as a great victory. you know russia is the great power in the region russia mediate. the end of the previous conflicts it can all go well to weaken in a decade that on that note there we're going to go to a short break and after a short break we'll continue our discussion on some real news state with our. sort of amazing country with so many friends in russia and i'm very excited to be here. i love that idea i think i can do that. every night i make a lot of money with. millions and hundreds of me.

he has a nice. a great wall and nobody builds a lot better than me believe and i'll build a very inexpensive like a great great wall. 'd and just in case you're worried about who's going to pay for it mexico will pay for . it will see what happens who knows i always say who knows what we'll see on the field it will be success. this fall us as american citizen but he didn't stop by. for an attack on we are asked to die and i don't think. i would vote

for a republican over trump i would vote for anyone who's not your fault. and has half a brain. second wife. she can handle. she and i divorce because trouble is what the president and i floated for him and she can. win the most important election. in our history. for the months to go before the next presidential election is the history of the us now. what are the highest priority programs how will they vote if they do. just some of the questions we put in there.

welcome back to cross where all things are considered i'm a minute we're discussing some real news. ok let's go to let's switch gears a little bit here i came across an absolutely fascinating article in the american conservative by a writer helen andrews and her article is a 2020 is tumbling towards 1017 subtitle we think we're safe from revolution we're wrong it's already in the works what do you think about the comparison of what's happening in the us politically in this very formal she was year and reflection about what happened historically in 1970 and in the russian empire that would soon

come to an end. well it's rare that you read such being seen in the american media because. and then tomorrow for their ultraliberal to compare more than the united states to the soviet union you know the the paul comparisons to will start in years more to live in years from but in fact for me. my historical knowledge of russia and the juju servatius that they make of their american public and he's go i for you know the perilous up all of us you know they're not just the best asked for a king you know i think that the reason for the paradox is that we have basically 2 to turn it in his image here which have a lot of things in common you know trump is unable to discern this territory and it's you know the 3rd after nazis and corman years which is now basically rooted in the hatred states you know instead of he and elected president

this is that i do always your ultra liberalism that has ruled in the united states and trunk anoxic united so he just traces it back to you know solve it by all should be examined and the marxist. well there are parallels but these are different and you're just paranoid also in radio because you know the technology is seen you find a certain group of individuals a social group you get declared them have been oppressed historically no you claim to have the right to represent these formally oppressed minority and to act on their behalf indicator to bring russia into right even though there are going to read between the lines there so the balsa makes them look like lives matter going to historical in the whole is absolute and it's not just had a nebulous that drew attention to this but also peter suffered in europe in the tablet which is an american magazine on religious affairs here august 1st an

age an article called. walk american. is the russian normal bob just did enjoy i know that the let me just quote it you know he talks about you getting your bizarre effect character or turn again of snow will return in the 19th century bugs out of it is a bolshevik so to speak. you know this is when the war the night is became popular in russia and winter on the whole well so let me just call it be just what i want us to even buzz out of is that different from today's protest and state you paul plus the twain just some things sowing discord you know news rooms cancel culture us the tube evoke the sociopaths who police our social media feeds well this is exactly true because you know the problem with bolshevism is that it's more it's less own ideology it's less the communism it's a. it's

a can or would you of come into power. shot your shutdown all of your points where everyone who disagrees an enemy your degree everyone who disagrees reactionary and story just walked in the wall street journal for example where you have that opinion beach fighting in the news room you know that being in beijing all today would be gross they're like the constitutional democrats who pulled the czar in february $1000.00 so when to create can you liberal russia and mean you will and then you throw out the bolsheviks you know who are actually us they are already sidelining all the american liberals in the ways in the same way bolshevik sidelined constitutional democrats in russia and you know the reason why this can happen on george the reason why this is going to because there's a crisis of legitimacy ok that's this that is the ultimate parallel it's

the bolsheviks 917 or france in 8789 i mean it's own. it's about to a lot of legitimacy and you have people within the power structures that are fueling on this illegitimacy ok they are actually destroying the system then sell it's and this is not a bottom up thing that's a top down thing again jurors know this right so a mentioned to gain of fathers and sons i would cite in other great russian novel which is perhaps even more apt which is does the us is the possess because does it was condense that the nihilist or you know some of them on the island some of them were proud of the extreme socialist were really are the product of the liberals of the earlier generation the liberals of the earlier generation that encourage this nihilism this destructiveness and they had lost the radical movement but what was readiest spawning about that novel is the complete collapse of the order of the old

all of the just collapse like a house of cards and so you have just as you wrote this almost 40 years before 917 and before that postal exactly what happened the entire russian governmental structure it had been there for hundreds of years collapse like a house of cards and that's really what's and that's what there was a kind of a rock from within and that's what you see in the united states because you see this wish trump's real problem is within the intelligence military security establishment they are openly defying the elected president they're openly speaking of him does it with his they in as if he had no legitimacy they they criticise his his moves when he went to that church and yet square you had the military chiefs criticizing and trump really didn't have the strength you know have doesn't have the political strength to fire all these people and which to and therefore sure you

know this election turn out to be the chaos and the that it looks like it's going to be then. should expect some sort of an insurrection within the government and trump made might be able to do very much about it you know the in the know the people in the political left in the united states are are are just. absurdly historical in their thinking they think it can't happen to us we can control this we know how to manage it know that that they're missing history here they're not they're not students of history once you start stuff like this it's almost impossible to control it and they end up being the victims of bit of mention ok this is this they're playing with fire here just because they hate the man in the oval office here the implications of which are are are enormous you can't control this kind of thing go ahead. you are absolutely right and the problem is that you know what you should be exposed to one and russia and them the you with bolshevism

their foreign policy in the united states it's vice versa you know there are 2 liberals 1st you must. win a speech and of political leaders outside the united states they used it in serbia they used it against ukraine they used it against russia and now they using it against their old president so that they can or would you of come into power of the new bolsheviks of liberals as they hold them it's very simple the persona you fight evil you know they don't talk about historical process they don't talk about according to history just there is an evil man you know running this country and life will be beautiful you know ok they remove gadhafi and what do we have that will have a civil war it's a much more complicated society than just you know one evil man controlling everything and i agree completely with george you know in the process by just ask you please know that. i'm a negative character that evolutionary. he's father is an all star rebore all you

know and he's portrayed satirical. in the beginning of them all so basically he does that yes he predicted that the future bolsheviks will come from westernized and girls they will stem from them you know he also george you know if you look like you know we all know the techniques that the bolsheviks used to come to power and they understood how power work i give them that the rest of it the ideology you know but they understood that but if you were if you're a student of history and you're a student of the bolsheviks it makes me think of stephen cohen who just recently passed away he wrote the seminal book i think on the bolsheviks and that was on who caught it and what happened to him it was a big dim of a huge purge that khomeini did in 1937 and the same kind of courage will come to these people ok because they let this this very toxic i call that

ideological possession their possessed people this is this is beyond reason you know it will come for them eventually history proves it over and over again go ahead george has a rap yes i think that's exactly right and that's what happens when you start playing this very dangerous game people who should know better. think that oh well you know this will get us the power once we are in power then we can just call this a coal of these mad dogs and we'll be nice and safe no it doesn't really work that way you know as the as the old bolsheviks found yeah i think got rid of all of the enemies the cool actually. are is bureaucracy it's either you know the entire sotiris establishment they would be safe no it came up to them and it was the old bolsheviks who was swept aside so yeah that's exactly what's what will happen here and what is it already this very very narrow. goal of

seizing power they you know they do. seize power that is they believe that it is their legitimate their right or this power over throat and there will be there and it never works that way you know again the one of the interesting thing for me i mean when we talk a lot about ideology and yeah you're the best but you know it particularly in the in the west in general but particularly in the united states there's a huge economic turndown this is adding on to this because you have these elements that use this ideology for political reasons but the inadvertently or are slaney the economic and financial discontent of people so you're going to get this this mixture of this this is going to be a very interesting a brew hear it because people are going to countries poorer nobody wants to admit it in media your country is poor and now we like a lot like matter we have this intentional read the legitimizing.

tradition law rule of law and that's why i wanted to talk about this article last 15 seconds go to you yeah well i'm going to commute iconoclasm here you know we will be dismissed by liberal media for comparing this name to states now to russia 1007 can just one more for you guys to get angry chest while you know all. the liberal supporters issues historia and right here old why bolsheviks also in poland to. be feel the void you know what b.l. am adonis i'm doing i'm doing as they say they're creating the void the a destroyer legion thing. there's a whole lot more to talk about on another episode of cross i want to thank my guest it must go in but it doesn't want to take our viewers for watching us here on c c n x time remember.

united states economy resembles to a large degree the economies of countries that the united states typically makes fun of you know the u.s. or the united nations will send aid and they'll send money to countries like say in africa for example not big on africa but it does happen where the money never gets distributed it just ends up if he did leaders of that particular country and then they become fabulously wealthy. join me every thursday on the alex salmond chill and i'll be speaking to us from the world of politics or business i'm show business i'll see you then.

i mean i'm as a by john it's closer to all out war as there are conflicts i would not go to. a 2nd week report from inside the disputed caucuses territory scenes like this one on here in melbourne i care about the fact this tiny village alone was battered by 6 massive missiles here one of them landed and this is all the devastation that it has left. tensions boil over in israel as i'm seeing government demonstrators define you coronavirus restrictions binding mass gatherings. and in paris a major spike in daily co-infection sees the front.